Worst case scenario what happens when you get no offered?

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Anonymous User
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Worst case scenario what happens when you get no offered?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 05, 2011 12:28 am

im really worried about getting no offered. My firm has a recent "pattern" of not giving 100% offers.

Im at a T30 top 20%.... what are my options?

TheFriendlyBarber
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Re: Worst case scenario what happens when you get no offered?

Postby TheFriendlyBarber » Tue Jul 05, 2011 12:40 am

Anonymous User wrote:im really worried about getting no offered. My firm has a recent "pattern" of not giving 100% offers.

Im at a T30 top 20%.... what are my options?


One thing to do is ask the firm where you summered if they would be willing to extend a "soft" no-offer (i.e., they allow you to tell potential employers that you received an offer . . . it being understood that, in reality, you're not welcome back). With this in hand, you start looking for another job.

More info here http://www.law.yale.edu/documents/pdf/CDO_Public/non_offer_advice.pdf

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thesealocust
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Re: Worst case scenario what happens when you get no offered?

Postby thesealocust » Tue Jul 05, 2011 12:41 am

1,000 lols at that being a document produced by Yale. I've heard anecdotes of Yalies treating summers with, shall we say, a more cavalier attitude as a result of having alternative long term career goals entrenched before setting foot in the firm. This PDF allows me to reinforce that stereotype in my mind.

Bueno.

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Re: Worst case scenario what happens when you get no offered?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 05, 2011 12:52 am

I've known a few people who've had this happen. Basically, you are too late for mass mailing at that point so Biglaw is out. Public interest is out because you dont have commitment for that and same for gov. The only viable option is a clerkship or more likely 40k shitlaw. Every person I knew who had this happen graduated unemployed, it's def as bad as it gets.

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Re: Worst case scenario what happens when you get no offered?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 05, 2011 8:02 am

does that mean I should start mass mailing asap?
Also, I should prob only ask about the "soft offer" when I actually get no offered right?

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Re: Worst case scenario what happens when you get no offered?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 05, 2011 8:17 am

It certainly is not too late to mass mail. The earlist I have herard it suggested is July 1, but most of the advice seems to suggest that closer to august 1 is better. Additionally, since 3L hiring is more depedendent on near term demand then 2L hiring it often continues into the school year. As I understand it people were getting big law interviews in the second semester 3L. Again, I am sure this is not common but there is certainly no reason to think big law is out because you have not mailed by the 5th of july. That being said, I am not sure what kind of a shot you really having mailing as a t30 top 20%.

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Re: Worst case scenario what happens when you get no offered?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:51 am

I wonder how many people here are lying about being at a T14. I am at a top 20 school and I haven't really met any people without any kind of job. Everyone is coming up with something even if it isn't market paying. They are pretty decent jobs too. Some of what TLSers might call "shitlaw," but for the most part its either firms or government work. Either way, there's IBR or firm pay.

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Re: Worst case scenario what happens when you get no offered?

Postby timbs4339 » Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:59 am

Anonymous User wrote:I wonder how many people here are lying about being at a T14. I am at a top 20 school and I haven't really met any people without any kind of job. Everyone is coming up with something even if it isn't market paying. They are pretty decent jobs too. Some of what TLSers might call "shitlaw," but for the most part its either firms or government work. Either way, there's IBR or firm pay.


The people you meet IRL may be lying to you.

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Cavalier
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Re: Worst case scenario what happens when you get no offered?

Postby Cavalier » Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:42 am

It's quite hilarious that Yale has such a document. What I don't understand is why the advice Yale gives isn't merely "get a circuit court clerkship and land at a higher ranked Vault firm."

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Re: Worst case scenario what happens when you get no offered?

Postby ndirish2010 » Tue Jul 05, 2011 12:16 pm

Anonymous User wrote:It certainly is not too late to mass mail. The earlist I have herard it suggested is July 1, but most of the advice seems to suggest that closer to august 1 is better. Additionally, since 3L hiring is more depedendent on near term demand then 2L hiring it often continues into the school year. As I understand it people were getting big law interviews in the second semester 3L. Again, I am sure this is not common but there is certainly no reason to think big law is out because you have not mailed by the 5th of july. That being said, I am not sure what kind of a shot you really having mailing as a t30 top 20%.


Depends on the T30...shot is not great as a 3L anyway, but this is within the range at many T30s to be competitive for a market paying job somewhere.

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Re: Worst case scenario what happens when you get no offered?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 05, 2011 12:23 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I wonder how many people here are lying about being at a T14. I am at a top 20 school and I haven't really met any people without any kind of job. Everyone is coming up with something even if it isn't market paying. They are pretty decent jobs too. Some of what TLSers might call "shitlaw," but for the most part its either firms or government work. Either way, there's IBR or firm pay.
'

What region are you in?

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ndirish2010
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Re: Worst case scenario what happens when you get no offered?

Postby ndirish2010 » Tue Jul 05, 2011 1:10 pm

When someone says T20, isn't it almost always WUSTL? Or are they T19?

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Lwoods
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Re: Worst case scenario what happens when you get no offered?

Postby Lwoods » Tue Jul 05, 2011 1:46 pm

Anonymous User wrote:It certainly is not too late to mass mail. The earlist I have herard it suggested is July 1, but most of the advice seems to suggest that closer to august 1 is better. Additionally, since 3L hiring is more depedendent on near term demand then 2L hiring it often continues into the school year. As I understand it people were getting big law interviews in the second semester 3L. Again, I am sure this is not common but there is certainly no reason to think big law is out because you have not mailed by the 5th of july. That being said, I am not sure what kind of a shot you really having mailing as a t30 top 20%.


Agreed. A friend's husband was at a T6 and no-offered. Firms were still interviewing 3Ls into the fall, and he got a couple, but many (like my former firm, which has a near 100% offer rate and did hire 3Ls this past year) are hesitant to hire those who were no-offered because they assume there must be something wrong with that person.

So, you should really examine why you think you'll be the one who doesn't get an offer and fix your behavior ASAP. Even at a firm with a below 100% offer rate, you have a much better chance getting a job from your current firm than finding one after being no-offered. Work hard, get your work done before it's due, expose the best parts of your personality and hide the worst, show follow up and follow through, and overall just be the associate your firm would want to hire.

If, after all that, you are still no offered, mass mail (but don't expect much), and try to think outside the box for other types of jobs you could get after law school. Network like crazy with your friends who were business majors in undergrad to see if there are any opportunities at their companies, that sort of thing.

areyouinsane
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Re: Worst case scenario what happens when you get no offered?

Postby areyouinsane » Tue Jul 05, 2011 2:24 pm

Might want to consider dropping out if you get dinged- question is will you know before 3 L year starts?

Once you miss Biglaw the odds are excellent that you'll end up making well south of 50 K at small time shitlaw (if you can even get that). Why waste another year and go through bar'zam prep, etc just to end up making the same as a janitor or fast food manager in some dead end shitlaw mill like insurance defense/foreclosures? Something to think about...

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Re: Worst case scenario what happens when you get no offered?

Postby applejacks » Tue Jul 05, 2011 2:44 pm

perhaps you could go for the GULC tax LLM

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Re: Worst case scenario what happens when you get no offered?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 05, 2011 3:18 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I wonder how many people here are lying about being at a T14. I am at a top 20 school and I haven't really met any people without any kind of job. Everyone is coming up with something even if it isn't market paying. They are pretty decent jobs too. Some of what TLSers might call "shitlaw," but for the most part its either firms or government work. Either way, there's IBR or firm pay.
'

What region are you in?

New England

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ndirish2010
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Re: Worst case scenario what happens when you get no offered?

Postby ndirish2010 » Tue Jul 05, 2011 3:53 pm

Ah, so BU...

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Re: Worst case scenario what happens when you get no offered?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 05, 2011 5:35 pm

ndirish2010 wrote:Ah, so BU...

Indeed!!!

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Kilpatrick
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Re: Worst case scenario what happens when you get no offered?

Postby Kilpatrick » Tue Jul 05, 2011 5:40 pm

When did BU become a T20?

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Re: Worst case scenario what happens when you get no offered?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 05, 2011 6:24 pm

Kilpatrick wrote:When did BU become a T20?

They were T20 when I applied in 2010. I think it oscillates between 19 (1994) and 22 (current year) in the USNWR. . . . Point is, even if there are some people at BU without jobs, they are not the norm. Several of my my classmates even got 1L jobs at big firms this summer - also not the norm. The class gets roughly a third or a quarter big firms. It isn't uncommon to meet people who did a 2L SA position as Wilmer Hale or Ropes & Gray, and who already have an offer. There are also a good deal of people working at smaller firms that still pay decently. I realize this is the exception in the market, but people are still getting those jobs. There is also a good number of people going into government or other public interest jobs, and a handfull of people are going to be JAGs.

No one is saying the market is booming right now, but there is no need to make it out to be more gloomy than it actually is. Reading some of the threads on here make it seem like no one is going to get a job - period. That just isn't even an approximation of the truth. Perhaps the people who had their hearts set on a V100 job will be a little let down, but there are plenty of decent jobs available to people coming out of quality law schools. It is just up to each person whether or not to take the debt and do a little digging to get them.

I found several smaller firms in my home town who are willing to interview me just because I go to a decently ranked school. They pay about $50k short of market, but I am a bit short of the median - so its fair. At least I know there are some realistic options out there if firms like Weil don't take me. Just look around. If you have decent grades and apply to a firm in your home town filled with attorneys who went to schools ranked 50 to 75 USNWR slots below your school, you have a shot at getting a job with them. Bid safe first and then shoot for the more national firms. Just because there isn't much between $160,000 and $50,000 doesn't mean there is nothing. The people who dig to find it will get it, and the people who give up won't.

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Re: Worst case scenario what happens when you get no offered?

Postby boalt2l » Tue Jul 05, 2011 7:03 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Kilpatrick wrote:When did BU become a T20?

They were T20 when I applied in 2010. I think it oscillates between 19 (1994) and 22 (current year) in the USNWR. . . . Point is, even if there are some people at BU without jobs, they are not the norm. Several of my my classmates even got 1L jobs at big firms this summer - also not the norm. The class gets roughly a third or a quarter big firms. It isn't uncommon to meet people who did a 2L SA position as Wilmer Hale or Ropes & Gray, and who already have an offer. There are also a good deal of people working at smaller firms that still pay decently. I realize this is the exception in the market, but people are still getting those jobs. There is also a good number of people going into government or other public interest jobs, and a handfull of people are going to be JAGs.

No one is saying the market is booming right now, but there is no need to make it out to be more gloomy than it actually is. Reading some of the threads on here make it seem like no one is going to get a job - period. That just isn't even an approximation of the truth. Perhaps the people who had their hearts set on a V100 job will be a little let down, but there are plenty of decent jobs available to people coming out of quality law schools. It is just up to each person whether or not to take the debt and do a little digging to get them.

I found several smaller firms in my home town who are willing to interview me just because I go to a decently ranked school. They pay about $50k short of market, but I am a bit short of the median - so its fair. At least I know there are some realistic options out there if firms like Weil don't take me. Just look around. If you have decent grades and apply to a firm in your home town filled with attorneys who went to schools ranked 50 to 75 USNWR slots below your school, you have a shot at getting a job with them. Bid safe first and then shoot for the more national firms. Just because there isn't much between $160,000 and $50,000 doesn't mean there is nothing. The people who dig to find it will get it, and the people who give up won't.


Translation: Just do 9-5 120k midlaw Bro. These jobs do not exist.

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Re: Worst case scenario what happens when you get no offered?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 05, 2011 7:44 pm

Someone can't read or do basic math! He never said 9 to 5 and $50k short of $160k is $110k. . . . Major life fail.

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Re: Worst case scenario what happens when you get no offered?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 05, 2011 8:11 pm

start applying for federal and state supreme court clerkships now. if you do land the firm job, you can either clerk and go back, or if you get your offer before clerkship interviews start, you can withdraw. Also, most state district court clekrships hire later than federal, so you can wait until October to apply to the last option clerkship.

This is exactly what I did, and thank god I did it because I was no-offered, but landed a better clerkship than anyone has in the history of the firm that no offered me.

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Re: Worst case scenario what happens when you get no offered?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 05, 2011 9:11 pm

Op here:
Do I have a chance at Fed clerkships at top 20%?

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Re: Worst case scenario what happens when you get no offered?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:00 pm

Depends. I don't think it hurts to try either way though. If you grew up in NYC or LA, you're probably fucked because you're competing with the whole world. If you have some real serious ties to the middle of nowhere, USA, then you're probably golden. E.g., if you're a 12th generation South Dakotan and your great grandmother invented the state flag, I'd bet money you could land a district court clerkship there. You should send out applications to all federal judges in a location you have real ties to, and then send out applications to all state supreme court judges in states you have ties to. Then wait to see if you get an offer from your SA. If so, take the SA offer and withdraw from any pending clerkships you've applied to (or don't if you'd really like to do the clerkship). If not, apply to state district court clerkships.




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