Short Vacation During Stub Year: Career Suicide?

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Short Vacation During Stub Year: Career Suicide?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jul 03, 2011 7:17 pm

Suppose I wanted to take 4-5 days off, samwiched between two weekends 3-4 months into my stub year. Assuming I inform people responsibly and am responsive over that vacation, will this be a huge black mark against me?

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thesealocust
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Re: Short Vacation During Stub Year: Career Suicide?

Postby thesealocust » Sun Jul 03, 2011 7:22 pm

...really? You'll have weeks between the bar and starting at your firm most places, and THAT is the time for law students to embark on the infamous 'bar trip.' That more than anything else would make you look flaky, I feel.

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Re: Short Vacation During Stub Year: Career Suicide?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jul 03, 2011 7:26 pm

thesealocust wrote:...really? You'll have weeks between the bar and starting at your firm most places, and THAT is the time for law students to embark on the infamous 'bar trip.' That more than anything else would make you look flaky, I feel.


I have a wedding to attend. But maybe I should ask the bride to shift it from December to August so I can attend during my bar trip.

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citykitty
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Re: Short Vacation During Stub Year: Career Suicide?

Postby citykitty » Sun Jul 03, 2011 7:28 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
thesealocust wrote:...really? You'll have weeks between the bar and starting at your firm most places, and THAT is the time for law students to embark on the infamous 'bar trip.' That more than anything else would make you look flaky, I feel.


I have a wedding to attend. But maybe I should ask the bride to shift it from December to August so I can attend during my bar trip.



Why do you need 9 days off (5 business days sandwiched between weekends) for a wedding? Seems like you could at most ask for Friday off and be back Sunday, unless the wedding is in Tahiti or something.

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Re: Short Vacation During Stub Year: Career Suicide?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jul 03, 2011 7:30 pm

citykitty wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
thesealocust wrote:...really? You'll have weeks between the bar and starting at your firm most places, and THAT is the time for law students to embark on the infamous 'bar trip.' That more than anything else would make you look flaky, I feel.


I have a wedding to attend. But maybe I should ask the bride to shift it from December to August so I can attend during my bar trip.



Why do you need 9 days off (5 business days sandwiched between weekends) for a wedding? Seems like you could at most ask for Friday off and be back Sunday, unless the wedding is in Tahiti or something.


You're on the right track. Wedding is overseas (assume 12-16 hours by plane each way). It also will last long. Many events.

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Re: Short Vacation During Stub Year: Career Suicide?

Postby thesealocust » Sun Jul 03, 2011 7:34 pm

It's different if it's a wedding. It's not a career enhancing move, but people will see it as much less boneheaded if it's to go to a wedding for somebody who is close to you. Then again, since you referred to it as a vacation, maybe it's just an acquaintance's wedding?

Either way, that's a different animal than "I feel like leaving town for a week 2 months into my job."

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Re: Short Vacation During Stub Year: Career Suicide?

Postby citykitty » Sun Jul 03, 2011 7:35 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
citykitty wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
thesealocust wrote:...really? You'll have weeks between the bar and starting at your firm most places, and THAT is the time for law students to embark on the infamous 'bar trip.' That more than anything else would make you look flaky, I feel.


I have a wedding to attend. But maybe I should ask the bride to shift it from December to August so I can attend during my bar trip.



Why do you need 9 days off (5 business days sandwiched between weekends) for a wedding? Seems like you could at most ask for Friday off and be back Sunday, unless the wedding is in Tahiti or something.


You're on the right track. Wedding is overseas (assume 12-16 hours by plane each way). It also will last long. Many events.


Unless (and sometimes even if) it's a super close family member (like a sibling), I'd say skip it. When my ex and I were together and he was in med school, his sis got married somewhere that required 18 hours of plane travel and a 3 night minimum hotel at $600/night. Sucks that we had to say no to his sister, but we did. We didn't go.

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Re: Short Vacation During Stub Year: Career Suicide?

Postby Sup Kid » Sun Jul 03, 2011 7:36 pm

Anonymous User wrote:You're on the right track. Wedding is overseas (assume 12-16 hours by plane each way). It also will last long. Many events.

You fly out Friday, attend the events you can on Saturday/Sunday, and fly back Monday, missing 2 days of work. Unless it is a family member or you are the best man/maid of honor, you shouldn't take that much time off -- and even if you are, it should be at most 3 work days. Taking a 9 day vacation within a couple months of starting is a tough sell at any job, nevermind a big law firm, and the newlyweds should understand not everybody can spent that long a time celebrating their marriage.

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Re: Short Vacation During Stub Year: Career Suicide?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jul 03, 2011 7:39 pm

Sup Kid wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:You're on the right track. Wedding is overseas (assume 12-16 hours by plane each way). It also will last long. Many events.

You fly out Friday, attend the events you can on Saturday/Sunday, and fly back Monday, missing 2 days of work. Unless it is a family member or you are the best man/maid of honor, you shouldn't take that much time off -- and even if you are, it should be at most 3 work days. Taking a 9 day vacation within a couple months of starting is a tough sell at any job, nevermind a big law firm, and the newlyweds should understand not everybody can spent that long a time celebrating their marriage.


Issue is that I'm being asked to be (the equivalent) of best man. Wedding is actually samwiched between Christmas and New Years. Does that change things?

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Re: Short Vacation During Stub Year: Career Suicide?

Postby thesealocust » Sun Jul 03, 2011 7:40 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sup Kid wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:You're on the right track. Wedding is overseas (assume 12-16 hours by plane each way). It also will last long. Many events.

You fly out Friday, attend the events you can on Saturday/Sunday, and fly back Monday, missing 2 days of work. Unless it is a family member or you are the best man/maid of honor, you shouldn't take that much time off -- and even if you are, it should be at most 3 work days. Taking a 9 day vacation within a couple months of starting is a tough sell at any job, nevermind a big law firm, and the newlyweds should understand not everybody can spent that long a time celebrating their marriage.


Issue is that I'm being asked to be (the equivalent) of best man. Wedding is actually samwiched between Christmas and New Years. Does that change things?


Yes. You can probably go to that, and you can definitely call HR and ask the question. At most firms you should realize you may be asked to cancel or cut short, but giving notice, putting it on the calendar, keeping people aware, etc. and this shouldn't be a career killer.

Others will make different choices, and that's fine. Life's about built up perceptions. This wouldn't be fatal.

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Re: Short Vacation During Stub Year: Career Suicide?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jul 03, 2011 7:42 pm

thesealocust wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Sup Kid wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:You're on the right track. Wedding is overseas (assume 12-16 hours by plane each way). It also will last long. Many events.

You fly out Friday, attend the events you can on Saturday/Sunday, and fly back Monday, missing 2 days of work. Unless it is a family member or you are the best man/maid of honor, you shouldn't take that much time off -- and even if you are, it should be at most 3 work days. Taking a 9 day vacation within a couple months of starting is a tough sell at any job, nevermind a big law firm, and the newlyweds should understand not everybody can spent that long a time celebrating their marriage.


Issue is that I'm being asked to be (the equivalent) of best man. Wedding is actually samwiched between Christmas and New Years. Does that change things?


Yes. You can probably go to that, and you can definitely call HR and ask the question. At most firms you should realize you may be asked to cancel or cut short, but giving notice, putting it on the calendar, keeping people aware, etc. and this shouldn't be a career killer.

Others will make different choices, and that's fine. Life's about built up perceptions. This wouldn't be fatal.


If it helps, I'm also in a group that's not prone to "unforeseen" work. That is, I'll have a pretty good idea of what my workload/schedule will be like around that time. There's no risk of something randomly popping up on Christmas eve.

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Re: Short Vacation During Stub Year: Career Suicide?

Postby thesealocust » Sun Jul 03, 2011 7:45 pm

So go to the wedding? I mean I'm sure telling them thesealocust thought it was fine will help, but I don't know what more you expect to get out of TLS.

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Re: Short Vacation During Stub Year: Career Suicide?

Postby Sup Kid » Sun Jul 03, 2011 8:09 pm

Note to OP: If you are a litigator and are asked to draft a statement of facts, include the facts MOST FAVORABLE to your side (such as "the wedding is during the slowest week of the year"). Why you left out such a crucial detail is beyond me; regardless, it changes the calculation and certainly makes it more doable. Still, check with your partners and HR soon after getting to the firm, and be prepared to make it 4-5 days if you think the 9 is going to look bad. Also consider talking to your associate contacts (3rd year or higher) and see what they think before broaching it with your group leader.

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Re: Short Vacation During Stub Year: Career Suicide?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 04, 2011 9:41 am

Sup Kid wrote:Note to OP: If you are a litigator and are asked to draft a statement of facts, include the facts MOST FAVORABLE to your side (such as "the wedding is during the slowest week of the year").


You're forgetting a few really important things. OP isn't in the US so that week might, in fact, be the busiest week of the year while people try to finish things up before Jan 1. If you're in Asia or some country that doesn't celebrate Christmas you might want to consider whether or not you'd essentially be bailing during a really busy time. Also, how is OP supposed to be responsive when he's a 12-16 hour flight away, is he going to stay up all night to make up for the time difference?

Secondly, I've worked in a small overseas office and it's not like working in a huge office in the US where people with nothing going on can step in and take over your projects. If you bail during a busy time (note: also a time when everyone else wants to go home and see their families) someone might end up having to do double duty and cover your slack. Vacations in these places are planned way in advance so that the partners can properly staff their projects. Even if you're not in a practice group where things pop up suddenly, it's not like you can just bail in the middle of a project without having someone waste a few days getting up to speed on what you've been doing. OP how would you feel if next year you have to do two people's work in late December because a stub year who just showed up a few months earlier had a wedding to go to?

While this might not be career suicide you're certainly not going to make any friends or leave the partners feeling like they can depend on you. Do what you want to do, but don't think things happen in a bubble or that people won't judge you. Also, if you're a stub year I'm assuming you just graduated law school and will need to come back to the US to get sworn in and pass C&F at some point before you can actually call yourself a lawyer. Put yourself in a partner's shoes, he's running a small team of people who he needs to be able to depend on and in the first six months of work the new guy has to take off twice to go back to the U.S.? Maybe they will be understanding, maybe they won't be. It probably depends on how well you get along with the other people in your office so asking here is pointless.

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Re: Short Vacation During Stub Year: Career Suicide?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 04, 2011 9:47 am

OP here: I am in the US. I'll just be traveling from the US to a location thats far, far away. I don't know what in my posts gave you the idea that I'm working in an overseas office...

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Re: Short Vacation During Stub Year: Career Suicide?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 04, 2011 9:56 am

Anonymous User wrote: I don't know what in my posts gave you the idea that I'm working in an overseas office...


That's what I get for skimming threads early in the morning, doh :shock:

In that case just ask HR, if you're in a large office the odds more than one or two people even notice are probably pretty slim.

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Re: Short Vacation During Stub Year: Career Suicide?

Postby Renzo » Mon Jul 04, 2011 9:58 am

On one hand, regardless of the career implications, no wedding on earth is worth nine days. I wouldn't take nine days off for my own wedding. Maybe if it were my wedding and I was marrying royalty in a country that's still a monarch--maybe.

On the other hand, it does suck to have to fly to the other side of the planet, only to turn around and come right back. But given that it does have career implications, I think that's what you have to do. Personally, I'd skip it unless it was a brother or sister's wedding, and in that case I'd show up for the wedding and any events the day immediately before; nothing else.

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Re: Short Vacation During Stub Year: Career Suicide?

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Mon Jul 04, 2011 10:13 am

Renzo wrote:On one hand, regardless of the career implications, no wedding on earth is worth nine days. I wouldn't take nine days off for my own wedding. Maybe if it were my wedding and I was marrying royalty in a country that's still a monarch--maybe.

On the other hand, it does suck to have to fly to the other side of the planet, only to turn around and come right back. But given that it does have career implications, I think that's what you have to do. Personally, I'd skip it unless it was a brother or sister's wedding, and in that case I'd show up for the wedding and any events the day immediately before; nothing else.


You would skip a wedding when you were being asked to be the best man/maid of honor? Seriously?

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Re: Short Vacation During Stub Year: Career Suicide?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 04, 2011 10:20 am

Renzo wrote:On one hand, regardless of the career implications, no wedding on earth is worth nine days. I wouldn't take nine days off for my own wedding. Maybe if it were my wedding and I was marrying royalty in a country that's still a monarch--maybe.

On the other hand, it does suck to have to fly to the other side of the planet, only to turn around and come right back. But given that it does have career implications, I think that's what you have to do. Personally, I'd skip it unless it was a brother or sister's wedding, and in that case I'd show up for the wedding and any events the day immediately before; nothing else.



Keep in mind, I'm skipping only 5 work days...

The wedding itself is only 5 days. I'm just taking advantage of the weekends/holidays so I have more time there.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Mon Jul 04, 2011 10:26 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Short Vacation During Stub Year: Career Suicide?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 04, 2011 10:22 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote: I don't know what in my posts gave you the idea that I'm working in an overseas office...


That's what I get for skimming threads early in the morning, doh :shock:

In that case just ask HR, if you're in a large office the odds more than one or two people even notice are probably pretty slim.


Yeah I'm in a large office in a major market.

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Re: Short Vacation During Stub Year: Career Suicide?

Postby Renzo » Mon Jul 04, 2011 10:26 am

ToTransferOrNot wrote:
Renzo wrote:On one hand, regardless of the career implications, no wedding on earth is worth nine days. I wouldn't take nine days off for my own wedding. Maybe if it were my wedding and I was marrying royalty in a country that's still a monarch--maybe.

On the other hand, it does suck to have to fly to the other side of the planet, only to turn around and come right back. But given that it does have career implications, I think that's what you have to do. Personally, I'd skip it unless it was a brother or sister's wedding, and in that case I'd show up for the wedding and any events the day immediately before; nothing else.


You would skip a wedding when you were being asked to be the best man/maid of honor? Seriously?


If it were going to take me nine days to participate? Absolutely. But I'll amend the above to say if I were the best man, I'd show up for the day of the wedding and events the day before--still no more than that. If people want to have weeklong nonsense celebrations, they shouldn't expect other people to rearrange their lives for it--that's just selfish.

Anonymous User wrote:
Keep in mind, I'm skipping only 5 work days...

The wedding itself is only 5 days. I'm just taking advantage of the weekends so I have more time there.


No way in hell I would agree to participate in a 5-day wedding during my stub year.

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Re: Short Vacation During Stub Year: Career Suicide?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 04, 2011 10:34 am

OP here again...

Honestly, I already know the answer to this question. I just wanted to pose this on TLS to see the responses I'd get (and to gauge the disconnect between what law students think and what attorneys think; unfortunately, not enough lawyers here posted for me to draw a comparison; maybe I should repost on that other forum?)

Anyhow, I asked about this with a few midlevels at my firm, and they said it was totally fine assuming that I started around August/September and I put a few good months of non-stop work in. That's not to say I can take random 5-day vacations during the year. But since it is during Christmas, when work tends to be a little slower and lot's of people are already doing something for the holidays, it isn't a big deal. This is assuming, of course, that I make adequate arrangements for someone to pick up the slack while I'm gone, keep people informed that I'll be out of the office, and that I'm responsive while I'm away.

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Re: Short Vacation During Stub Year: Career Suicide?

Postby Renzo » Mon Jul 04, 2011 10:40 am

Anonymous User wrote:OP here again...

Honestly, I already know the answer to this question. I just wanted to pose this on TLS to see the responses I'd get (and to gauge the disconnect between what law students think and what attorneys think; unfortunately, not enough lawyers here posted for me to draw a comparison; maybe I should repost on that other forum?)

Anyhow, I asked about this with a few midlevels at my firm, and they said it was totally fine assuming that I started around August/September and I put a few good months of non-stop work in. That's not to say I can take random 5-day vacations during the year. But since it is during Christmas, when work tends to be a little slower and lot's of people are already doing something for the holidays, it isn't a big deal. This is assuming, of course, that I make adequate arrangements for someone to pick up the slack while I'm gone, keep people informed that I'll be out of the office, and that I'm responsive while I'm away.


I think you got good advice from the midlevels. Still no way in hell I'd do it; but I'll admit that I have different priorities than many.

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Re: Short Vacation During Stub Year: Career Suicide?

Postby BriaTharen » Mon Jul 04, 2011 10:49 am

Anonymous User wrote:OP here again...

Honestly, I already know the answer to this question. I just wanted to pose this on TLS to see the responses I'd get (and to gauge the disconnect between what law students think and what attorneys think; unfortunately, not enough lawyers here posted for me to draw a comparison; maybe I should repost on that other forum?)

Anyhow, I asked about this with a few midlevels at my firm, and they said it was totally fine assuming that I started around August/September and I put a few good months of non-stop work in. That's not to say I can take random 5-day vacations during the year. But since it is during Christmas, when work tends to be a little slower and lot's of people are already doing something for the holidays, it isn't a big deal. This is assuming, of course, that I make adequate arrangements for someone to pick up the slack while I'm gone, keep people informed that I'll be out of the office, and that I'm responsive while I'm away.


That's the only part that would concern me. Those lots of people (unless you have confirmed that they are stubs that have done this before) are probably the midlevels that are counting on people like you to be around to pick up their slack.

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Re: Short Vacation During Stub Year: Career Suicide? Th to

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 04, 2011 10:59 am

I prioritize the firm too. As delusional as I sound, I want to make partner. In true lawyer style, I've conditionally accepted the best man position, the condition being that my work situation is amenable to the break. Still, a free first class ticket to the other side of the world guarantees I'll be able to hit thE ground running when I return!

Edit: worth clarifying that the firm has no face time requirement, though it is a top firm reputed for crazy billables.




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