Poll: Anonymous poll of HLS grades to determine median

(On Campus Interviews, Summer Associate positions, Firm Reviews, Tips, ...)
Forum rules
Anonymous Posting

Anonymous posting is only appropriate when you are revealing sensitive employment related information about a firm, job, etc. You may anonymously respond on topic to these threads. Unacceptable uses include: harassing another user, joking around, testing the feature, or other things that are more appropriate in the lounge.

Failure to follow these rules will get you outed, warned, or banned.

How many Hs did you have after 1L?

0 or less
5
11%
1
1
2%
2
3
6%
3
4
9%
4
10
21%
5
2
4%
6
5
11%
7
4
9%
8-9
4
9%
10 or more
9
19%
 
Total votes: 47

Anonymous User
Posts: 273386
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Poll: Anonymous poll of HLS grades to determine median

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jun 30, 2011 8:45 am

So yeah, obviously this will not be a good sample, selection bias, etc. etc. But a lot of people have been asking this question so I thought I would give it a shot.

I thought about doing one where everyone posts their GPA (to be more accurate) but figured that would get few takers. Also, this obviously doesn't account for differences in class credits, but oh well. And I understand the tails can't capture all data accurately, but I can only have 10 poll options and besides, we're looking for a median.

So, if you are at HLS, calculate the number of Hs (out of 10 classes) you had after 1L year. Add an H for a DS. Subtract and H for an LP. That means if you have a DS, count it as 2Hs.

Just to be clear, this means someone with 4Hs, 4Ps, and 2 DSs (which are also Hs) would select 8 above. Someone with 2 Hs, 5Ps and 3 LPs would select "0 or less" because their LPs bring them to -1.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Thu Jun 30, 2011 12:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273386
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Poll: Anonymous poll of HLS grades to determine median

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jun 30, 2011 12:20 pm

You admit selection bias so all this poll will show is the median grades for a TLSer at HLS, which will likely be higher than the actual median at HLS -- but indeterminable based on the poll.

How is this useful?

Anonymous User
Posts: 273386
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Poll: Anonymous poll of HLS grades to determine median

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jun 30, 2011 12:25 pm

I also accidentally selected my total for 1L and 2L, not just 1L. My b. Ignore the "7."

09042014
Posts: 18282
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:47 pm

Re: Poll: Anonymous poll of HLS grades to determine median

Postby 09042014 » Thu Jun 30, 2011 12:40 pm

Do employers actually view an LP and a H as canceling each other out?

Because if you convert the HLS scale to a real grading scale, DS = A+, H = A- to A, P = B to B+, and probably a good chunk of B-, and LP = C to B-.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273386
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Poll: Anonymous poll of HLS grades to determine median

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jun 30, 2011 12:42 pm

Anonymous User wrote:You admit selection bias so all this poll will show is the median grades for a TLSer at HLS, which will likely be higher than the actual median at HLS -- but indeterminable based on the poll.

How is this useful?


You are right that there will be selection bias, which cannot be helped. I don't understand your point about the median of HLS TLSers being "indeterminable." As I said, the fact that the tail categories group multiple responses together should not matter unless the median is in those categories.

User avatar
englawyer
Posts: 1270
Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2007 10:57 pm

Re: Poll: Anonymous poll of HLS grades to determine median

Postby englawyer » Thu Jun 30, 2011 12:49 pm

Desert Fox wrote:Do employers actually view an LP and a H as canceling each other out?

Because if you convert the HLS scale to a real grading scale, DS = A+, H = A- to A, P = B to B+, and probably a good chunk of B-, and LP = C to B-.


the school published a GPA equivalent scale last fall (and caused a big scandal by doing so):

DS = 5
H = 4 (A)
P = 3 (B)
LP = 2 (C)

Anonymous User
Posts: 273386
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Poll: Anonymous poll of HLS grades to determine median

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jun 30, 2011 12:51 pm

Desert Fox wrote:Do employers actually view an LP and a H as canceling each other out?

Because if you convert the HLS scale to a real grading scale, DS = A+, H = A- to A, P = B to B+, and probably a good chunk of B-, and LP = C to B-.


This is why the grading system sucks. According to the numbers HLS assigns to the grades for latin honors, it would be:

DS = Super A+
H = A
P = B
LP = C

When in reality, when compared to pre-grade change curves, it's most likely...

DS = A+
H = A to the best B+s
P = B+ to B
LP = B to D, but most of those with an LP would have gotten a B to B- under the old system.

The system hurts those who would have gotten a B+ but now get a P and those would who have gotten a B- but now get an LP. Then again, it helps those on the opposite end.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273386
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Poll: Anonymous poll of HLS grades to determine median

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jun 30, 2011 12:53 pm

Desert Fox wrote:Do employers actually view an LP and a H as canceling each other out?

Because if you convert the HLS scale to a real grading scale, DS = A+, H = A- to A, P = B to B+, and probably a good chunk of B-, and LP = C to B-.


I think I did not do a good job explaining in the initial post, sorry. GPA at HLS is 5 for DS, 4 for H, 3 for P, 2 for LP.

So if somebody has (out of 10 classes): 5Hs, 3Ps and 2 DS (also Hs), they technically got 7 Hs. But their GPA is identical to someone who got 9Hs and 1 P.

If somebody has (out of 10 classes): 5Hs, 3 Ps and 2 LPs, they technically got 5 Hs. But their GPA is identical to someone who got 3Hs and 7 Ps (hence why you subtract for each LP).

The point was to normalize to a single number (number of Hs) that accounts for LPs and DSs; this does so perfectly according to the GPA.

But I don't know if this is how employers view it.

09042014
Posts: 18282
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:47 pm

Re: Poll: Anonymous poll of HLS grades to determine median

Postby 09042014 » Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:01 pm

But since employers don't really view you by that GPA I'd say it is irrelevant. Though it might be sorta useful for guestimating a median. What percentage of DS and LP are given out, roughly.

A little offtopic: but that number scale is really retarded.

User avatar
englawyer
Posts: 1270
Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2007 10:57 pm

Re: Poll: Anonymous poll of HLS grades to determine median

Postby englawyer » Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:32 pm

percentages as I remember them:

8% LP
55% P
37% H

DS are discretionary but I think they happen every class. no idea on the amount though.

but anyway, yeah the number scale sucks.

User avatar
Moxie
Posts: 665
Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2009 3:27 pm

Re: Poll: Anonymous poll of HLS grades to determine median

Postby Moxie » Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:49 pm

Why not actually ask the school for information on median? If you know someone in OCS, they'll give you much better information than this terribly biased poll.

09042014
Posts: 18282
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:47 pm

Re: Poll: Anonymous poll of HLS grades to determine median

Postby 09042014 » Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:56 pm

englawyer wrote:percentages as I remember them:

8% LP
55% P
37% H

DS are discretionary but I think they happen every class. no idea on the amount though.

but anyway, yeah the number scale sucks.


Assuming:

it's a normal distribution (which it's not)

DS's are about 3% of the class.

You get an average of ~3.3, and in normal dist. the average is median. So basically 3H's/7P's is median.

IIRC though LPs are now discretionary. But that shouldn't effect it too much.

User avatar
englawyer
Posts: 1270
Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2007 10:57 pm

Re: Poll: Anonymous poll of HLS grades to determine median

Postby englawyer » Thu Jun 30, 2011 2:07 pm

yeah around 3 H seems to be right. Another way to look at it is to see it between two extremes:

"Perfect" Grading:

Assume everyone has innate law school ability that is the same in every course. And assume the grading system perfectly captures that innate law school ability. Then we would expect 37% students to get straight H's, 55% to get straight P's, and 8% to get straight LP's. The median would be 3.0 (one of the straight P students).

"Random" Grading:

Instead assume what grade you get is completely random. We would expect every student to get 37% H, 55% P, and 8% LP. The median would be 3.32 (.03*5+.34*4+.55*3+.08*2).

The reality is probably somewhere in between, IE in the range 3-3.32.




Return to “Legal Employment”

Who is online

The online users are hidden on this forum.