Top 6% at Fordham. Where to bid?

(On Campus Interviews, Summer Associate positions, Firm Reviews, Tips, ...)
Forum rules
Anonymous Posting

Anonymous posting is only appropriate when you are revealing sensitive employment related information about a firm, job, etc. You may anonymously respond on topic to these threads. Unacceptable uses include: harassing another user, joking around, testing the feature, or other things that are more appropriate in the lounge.

Failure to follow these rules will get you outed, warned, or banned.
Anonymous User
Posts: 273254
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Top 6% at Fordham. Where to bid?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jun 28, 2011 12:28 am

edit: i changed the title to make it known since people might think i go to a non-nyc school.

Interested in doing preftigious corporate law in NYC.
Where to bid?
V10 a possibility? or shoot lower. like V50

edit:
just some general bid list i though of using some other "guidelines."
1. Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom LLP.
2. Simpson Thacher & Bartlett LLP.
3. Dais, Polk & Wardwell LLP.
4. Debevoise & Plimpton LLP
5. Cleary Gottlieb Steen & Hamilton LLP.
6. Quinn Emanuel Urquhart & Sullivan LLP
7. Cravath Swaine & Moore
8. Sullivan & Cromwell.
9. Gibson, Dunn & Crutcher LLP.
10. Kirkland & Ellis LLP.
11. Latham & Watkins LLP (New York).
12. edit.
13. Paul Weiss, Rifkind, Wharton & Garrison LLP.
14. Patterson, Belknap, Webb & Tyler LLP.
15. Wilmerhale.
16. Weil , Gotshal & Manges LLP.
17. White & Case LLP.
18. Milbank, Tweed, Hadley & McCloy LLP.
19. Sidley Austin LLP
20. Ropes & Gray LLP.
21. Cahill Gordon & Reindel LLP.
22. Fried Frank Harris Shriver & Jacobson LLP.
23. Jones Day.
24. Kasowitz Benson Torres & Friedman LLP.
25. Kramer Levin, Naftalis & Frankel.
26. Morgan, Lewis & Bockius LLP.
27. O’Melveny & Meyers LLP.
28. Orrick, Herrington & Sutcliffe LLP.
29. Schulte Roth & Zabel LLP.
30. Alston & Bird LLP.
31. Allen & Overy.
32. Cadwalader, Wickersham & Taft LLP.
33. Dewey & Leboeuf.
34. DLA Pipers.
35. Winston & Strawn LLP.
36. K&L Gates LLP.
37. Kelley Drye & Warren LLP.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:22 pm, edited 5 times in total.

User avatar
ndirish2010
Posts: 2950
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:41 pm

Re: Top 6% at T30. Where to bid?

Postby ndirish2010 » Tue Jun 28, 2011 12:38 am

Seems like if it's Fordham, you can shoot pretty high. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

User avatar
thesealocust
Posts: 8445
Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:50 pm

Re: Top 6% at T30. Where to bid?

Postby thesealocust » Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:17 am

V10 possible but not certain. Bid anywhere you want to work, you've got great grades but nothing's certain. Good enough that there won't be an easy group of firms you should avoid / have no shot at, that much at least is certain.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273254
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Top 6% at T30. Where to bid?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:53 pm

edit: put into original post.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Tue Jun 28, 2011 6:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273254
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Top 6% at T30. Where to bid?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jun 28, 2011 6:08 pm

can you shed some light on how you put this list together? im currently in the same position as OP at possibly same school, although more like top 3% if that matters, and am not at all sure how to approach my bid list in terms of ranking

Anonymous User wrote:just some general bid list i though of using some other "guidelines."
1. Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom LLP.
2. Simpson Thacher & Bartlett LLP.
3. Dais, Polk & Wardwell LLP.
4. Debevoise & Plimpton LLP
5. Cleary Gottlieb Steen & Hamilton LLP.
6. Quinn Emanuel Urquhart & Sullivan LLP
7. Cravath Swaine & Moore
8. Sullivan & Cromwell.
9. Gibson, Dunn & Crutcher LLP.
10. Kirkland & Ellis LLP.
11. Latham & Watkins LLP (New York).
12. edit.
13. Paul Weiss, Rifkind, Wharton & Garrison LLP.
14. Patterson, Belknap, Webb & Tyler LLP.
15. Wilmerhale.
16. Weil , Gotshal & Manges LLP.
17. White & Case LLP.
18. Milbank, Tweed, Hadley & McCloy LLP.
19. Sidley Austin LLP
20. Ropes & Gray LLP.
21. Cahill Gordon & Reindel LLP.
22. Fried Frank Harris Shriver & Jacobson LLP.
23. Jones Day.
24. Kasowitz Benson Torres & Friedman LLP.
25. Kramer Levin, Naftalis & Frankel.
26. Morgan, Lewis & Bockius LLP.
27. O’Melveny & Meyers LLP.
28. Orrick, Herrington & Sutcliffe LLP.
29. Schulte Roth & Zabel LLP.
30. Alston & Bird LLP.
31. Allen & Overy.
32. Cadwalader, Wickersham & Taft LLP.
33. Dewey & Leboeuf.
34. DLA Pipers.
35. Winston & Strawn LLP.
36. K&L Gates LLP.
37. Kelley Drye & Warren LLP.

User avatar
Shammis
Posts: 304
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 4:26 pm

Re: Top 6% at T30. Where to bid?

Postby Shammis » Tue Jun 28, 2011 6:19 pm

Why no Akin Gump? Just curious

Anonymous User
Posts: 273254
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Top 6% at T30. Where to bid?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jun 28, 2011 6:21 pm

jstubbs wrote:Why no Akin Gump? Just curious

OP here.
not participating in my OCI.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273254
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Top 6% at T30. Where to bid?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jun 28, 2011 6:43 pm

OP, unless you're at Fordham, I would drastically scale down your list (i.e., no V20s). If you are at Fordham, I would still taper it down a bit (i.e. no V5s). I remember getting my grades and class rank back last year, which were essentially exactly what you have, and thinking that I would be able to get a job. To be fair, I bid on a major market other than NYC (think DC, LA, SF, Chi, or Boston). That said, each of the firms that I had a callback with brought in like 20 law school students for each opening, and I ultimately struck out.

You're in a spot where you could realistically land a job with a large firm if that's what you want to do. However, this isn't the 1980s/90s. Be strategic in your bidding. Focus on firms with large summer classes and high offer rates. Also, you should really focus your bidding on firms in that 25-80 range.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273254
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Top 6% at T30. Where to bid?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:03 pm

That's pretty bad advice. Some of the V5s have huge class sizes and are not incredibly grade-selective (see, e.g., Davis Polk). I don't think any of those firms are out of play for someone with top grades, even at Fordham. I think your advice is colored by your own experience of striking out, which seems to lead you to make assertions like "every firm had a 20:1 callback:offer ratio" which is just patently ludicrous.

EDIT: I'm sorry, I'm going to rant a bit. This post is beyond "pretty bad." It's really, really horrible advice. Law students are characteristically risk-averse, which is fine, but bidding only on V21-V80 firms is the opposite of strategic (and I absolutely fucking hate that "strategic" is now a euphemism for "extremely conservative."). It's not strategic or logical to avoid risks where the payoff is really high relative to the downside. Bidding V1-V20 is a stupid, unjustifiably risky strategy. Incorporating a select number of elite firms into your overall bid list of reach and target firms (notice how I didn't say "safety") when you have excellent grades is not a stupid strategy. It is a smart, balanced, well-justified strategy. It is slightly more risky, but not much more so (especially in light of OP's grades), and it avoids the obvious downside of your strategy (namely, that OP has no chance of working at V20 firm).

Anonymous User
Posts: 273254
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Top 6% at T30. Where to bid?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:41 pm

Anonymous User wrote:That's pretty bad advice. Some of the V5s have huge class sizes and are not incredibly grade-selective (see, e.g., Davis Polk). I don't think any of those firms are out of play for someone with top grades, even at Fordham. I think your advice is colored by your own experience of striking out, which seems to lead you to make assertions like "every firm had a 20:1 callback:offer ratio" which is just patently ludicrous.

EDIT: I'm sorry, I'm going to rant a bit. This post is beyond "pretty bad." It's really, really horrible advice. Law students are characteristically risk-averse, which is fine, but bidding only on V21-V80 firms is the opposite of strategic (and I absolutely fucking hate that "strategic" is now a euphemism for "extremely conservative."). It's not strategic or logical to avoid risks where the payoff is really high relative to the downside. Bidding V1-V20 is a stupid, unjustifiably risky strategy. Incorporating a select number of elite firms into your overall bid list of reach and target firms (notice how I didn't say "safety") when you have excellent grades is not a stupid strategy. It is a smart, balanced, well-justified strategy. It is slightly more risky, but not much more so (especially in light of OP's grades), and it avoids the obvious downside of your strategy (namely, that OP has no chance of working at V20 firm).


I said that things would be different if he were at Fordham in the sense that things would be better. Tons of partners at the NYC offices of law firms went to law school there, and because Fordham is located right in the middle of Manhattan, they're willing to come interview people at OCI. Fordham seems to be the one school ranked in the 20-50 range where things actually are significantly different than at other similarly ranked schools.

Also, of course my perception was colored by my own experience. However, I wouldn't have responded to this thread the way that I did if I hadn't seen enough other students with similar (or better) grades go through the process with the same experience that I had. Pretty much every office that I had a callback with had around a 20:1 callback ratio (none of those offices had huge summer classes though). I know this via people that work at those offices. It also sucks when you know that the office that you're interviewing with has interviews scheduled for well over a month, and on the day that you show up, 2 other students are there with you interviewing for a total of 4 job openings.

Things are better in NYC right now, which is why I noted in my post that I didn't bid on NYC. OP has great grades and a great shot at landing a job with a large firm. That said, although top 6% may have been a huge deal 5 years ago, a lot of firms use top 5% cutoffs for students attending schools that are ranked outside of the T14 today in order to automatically screen them out. Again, that cutoff is probably a bit lower at Fordham.

I'm not saying a V20 is impossible. I just now saw that OP changed the title of the thread to say that he's going to Fordham. I'd say OP has a decent shot at a V20. I would still stay away from the V5s and any other ultra selective firms as well as come up with a bid list that flows more evenly throughout the Vault rankings while focussing on firms that specialize in areas that interest you.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273254
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Top 6% at T30. Where to bid?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jun 28, 2011 8:56 pm

Anonymous User wrote:That's pretty bad advice. Some of the V5s have huge class sizes and are not incredibly grade-selective (see, e.g., Davis Polk). I don't think any of those firms are out of play for someone with top grades, even at Fordham. I think your advice is colored by your own experience of striking out, which seems to lead you to make assertions like "every firm had a 20:1 callback:offer ratio" which is just patently ludicrous.

EDIT: I'm sorry, I'm going to rant a bit. This post is beyond "pretty bad." It's really, really horrible advice. Law students are characteristically risk-averse, which is fine, but bidding only on V21-V80 firms is the opposite of strategic (and I absolutely fucking hate that "strategic" is now a euphemism for "extremely conservative."). It's not strategic or logical to avoid risks where the payoff is really high relative to the downside. Bidding V1-V20 is a stupid, unjustifiably risky strategy. Incorporating a select number of elite firms into your overall bid list of reach and target firms (notice how I didn't say "safety") when you have excellent grades is not a stupid strategy. It is a smart, balanced, well-justified strategy. It is slightly more risky, but not much more so (especially in light of OP's grades), and it avoids the obvious downside of your strategy (namely, that OP has no chance of working at V20 firm).

OP here.
do you believe my list is too "risky?"
how many of the ones i listed are "target/reach?"

Anonymous User
Posts: 273254
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Top 6% at Fordham. Where to bid?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:46 pm

OP: I have no idea how many bids you get, whether you have a lottery/preselect process, etc. The short answer is that there is no firm on your list which I think it is *wrong* to bid on, but I think you may have too many of the elite firms and not enough of the "target" firms (and there are probably other "target" firms you should include, like lower V100s or the worse Magic Circle firms, etc.). I think somewhere between a 2:1 and 3:1 ratio of target:reach firms is probably prudent given your position.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273254
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Top 6% at Fordham. Where to bid?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jun 29, 2011 8:03 am

Not the OP here, but another Fordham student who is top 10%.

We get 35 bids. We have a 60/40 preselect/lottery process, so the firm chooses 60% of the students they want to interview, and the other 40% are chosen by lottery.

I provide this information because I'm interested in hearing more from others about this topic.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273254
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Top 6% at T30. Where to bid?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jun 29, 2011 8:55 am

Anonymous User wrote:
I said that things would be different if he were at Fordham in the sense that things would be better. Tons of partners at the NYC offices of law firms went to law school there, and because Fordham is located right in the middle of Manhattan, they're willing to come interview people at OCI. Fordham seems to be the one school ranked in the 20-50 range where things actually are significantly different than at other similarly ranked schools.
* * *
Things are better in NYC right now, which is why I noted in my post that I didn't bid on NYC. OP has great grades and a great shot at landing a job with a large firm. That said, although top 6% may have been a huge deal 5 years ago, a lot of firms use top 5% cutoffs for students attending schools that are ranked outside of the T14 today in order to automatically screen them out. Again, that cutoff is probably a bit lower at Fordham.

I'm not saying a V20 is impossible. I just now saw that OP changed the title of the thread to say that he's going to Fordham. I'd say OP has a decent shot at a V20. I would still stay away from the V5s and any other ultra selective firms as well as come up with a bid list that flows more evenly throughout the Vault rankings while focussing on firms that specialize in areas that interest you.


What do you think Cardozo translates into for NYC markets? Does it bump from 50 to, say, 25-30 -- i.e. is it competitive with Emory, ND, BC etc... (notwithstanding that Fordham is obviously stronger for the same reason)??

How about other NY area schools? my guesses:
Seton Hall 61 -> 40ish (Seton Hall vs. ASU in NYC, easily Seton Hall, right?)
Brooklyn 67-> competitive with the low end of tier 1 (or even higher, probably way better than ASU in NYC)
Hofstra+Rutgers (Newark) 84 -> upper tier 2 (60ish) (Penn State? Seems about right)
St John's 95 -> mid tier 2 (70-80) (Loyola Chi)

at this point, you're starting to get in the range where just about nobody places in NYC anyway -- even at NYLS and Touro, you're looking at the top 1%, which is the same throughout TTT/TTTT. Do Touro's summa grads have a better shot in the V100 than Cooley's? I think it's not even school specific at that point and statistics lose their ability to explain that sort of thing.

User avatar
ndirish2010
Posts: 2950
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:41 pm

Re: Top 6% at Fordham. Where to bid?

Postby ndirish2010 » Wed Jun 29, 2011 9:34 am

You would think that the T25/T30 range schools would outplace Cardozo in NY (obviously not in sheer numbers since almost everyone at Dozo ends up in NYC). Especially BC/BU. Don't know if the same holds true for Emory and NDLS (and similarly WUSTL, UIUC...)

Anonymous User
Posts: 273254
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Top 6% at Fordham. Where to bid?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jun 30, 2011 11:39 am

bump.

User avatar
DrGuano
Posts: 192
Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 1:13 pm

Re: Top 6% at Fordham. Where to bid?

Postby DrGuano » Thu Jul 07, 2011 9:24 pm

How do you know you're top 6%? We just get top 10 percent cutoff at Fordham. Is there a way to figure out what percentage you are?

Also, since you're anonymous, would you mind sharing your GPA so I could base my rank off of it? I'm not quite sure how far into the Top 10 I am.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273254
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Top 6% at Fordham. Where to bid?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jul 08, 2011 10:57 am

Top 5% is a 3.69, right?

DrGuano wrote:How do you know you're top 6%? We just get top 10 percent cutoff at Fordham. Is there a way to figure out what percentage you are?

Also, since you're anonymous, would you mind sharing your GPA so I could base my rank off of it? I'm not quite sure how far into the Top 10 I am.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273254
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Top 6% at Fordham. Where to bid?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jul 08, 2011 11:11 am

Rising 3L at Fordham here. If you're top 10% at Fordham after your 1L you should have no problem getting interviews with every v35 firm (except those that don't interview at Fordham). List them all with confidence.

User avatar
ndirish2010
Posts: 2950
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:41 pm

Re: Top 6% at Fordham. Where to bid?

Postby ndirish2010 » Fri Jul 08, 2011 11:23 am

Anonymous User wrote:Top 5% is a 3.69, right?

DrGuano wrote:How do you know you're top 6%? We just get top 10 percent cutoff at Fordham. Is there a way to figure out what percentage you are?

Also, since you're anonymous, would you mind sharing your GPA so I could base my rank off of it? I'm not quite sure how far into the Top 10 I am.


Wow, Fordham's grades are pretty low. What's the median?

Anonymous User
Posts: 273254
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Top 6% at Fordham. Where to bid?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:10 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Rising 3L at Fordham here. If you're top 10% at Fordham after your 1L you should have no problem getting interviews with every v35 firm (except those that don't interview at Fordham). List them all with confidence.


But what is the percentage of the top 10% actually getting offers from V35?
Also is there an anecdotal percentage of class getting biglaw last year?

alumniguy
Posts: 426
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2011 3:24 pm

Re: Top 6% at T30. Where to bid?

Postby alumniguy » Fri Jul 08, 2011 3:10 pm

Anonymous User wrote:OP, unless you're at Fordham, I would drastically scale down your list (i.e., no V20s). If you are at Fordham, I would still taper it down a bit (i.e. no V5s). I remember getting my grades and class rank back last year, which were essentially exactly what you have, and thinking that I would be able to get a job. To be fair, I bid on a major market other than NYC (think DC, LA, SF, Chi, or Boston). That said, each of the firms that I had a callback with brought in like 20 law school students for each opening, and I ultimately struck out.

You're in a spot where you could realistically land a job with a large firm if that's what you want to do. However, this isn't the 1980s/90s. Be strategic in your bidding. Focus on firms with large summer classes and high offer rates. Also, you should really focus your bidding on firms in that 25-80 range.


Agree that this is horrible advice for OP. While Anonymous applied to other "major markets," that doesn't translate into NYC hiring. First, summer associate hiring is up at most NYC firms compared to last year. Second, NYC firms hire substantially more summer associates than any other city - especially since ITE.

OP: V-10 and better are your reaches. V11-V50 are your targets. V51+ are probably relatively safe. Of course there are caveats, notably that many of the V51+s have smaller classes and that leads to more competition to land an offer. I would be EXTREMELY surprised if OP doesn't get at least one offer from a V10 and several offers from V11-50 firms.

Anonymous User wrote:What do you think Cardozo translates into for NYC markets? Does it bump from 50 to, say, 25-30 -- i.e. is it competitive with Emory, ND, BC etc... (notwithstanding that Fordham is obviously stronger for the same reason)??

How about other NY area schools? my guesses:
Seton Hall 61 -> 40ish (Seton Hall vs. ASU in NYC, easily Seton Hall, right?)
Brooklyn 67-> competitive with the low end of tier 1 (or even higher, probably way better than ASU in NYC)
Hofstra+Rutgers (Newark) 84 -> upper tier 2 (60ish) (Penn State? Seems about right)
St John's 95 -> mid tier 2 (70-80) (Loyola Chi)

at this point, you're starting to get in the range where just about nobody places in NYC anyway -- even at NYLS and Touro, you're looking at the top 1%, which is the same throughout TTT/TTTT. Do Touro's summa grads have a better shot in the V100 than Cooley's? I think it's not even school specific at that point and statistics lose their ability to explain that sort of thing.


This isn't the way it works. Cardozo doesn't place nearly as well as Fordham nor any other USNEWS ranked school in the 20s. For Cardozo students, if you are top 5% or top 10%, then you probably should be looking at the V20s-V50s as reach firms and V-51+ as target. I don't think there are any "safe" firms for Cardozo grads.

gibby
Posts: 21
Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2010 10:46 pm

Re: Top 6% at Fordham. Where to bid?

Postby gibby » Fri Jul 08, 2011 3:16 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Rising 3L at Fordham here. If you're top 10% at Fordham after your 1L you should have no problem getting interviews with every v35 firm (except those that don't interview at Fordham). List them all with confidence.


But what is the percentage of the top 10% actually getting offers from V35?
Also is there an anecdotal percentage of class getting biglaw last year?


We got crushed at 2L oci. I'd say about 15-20% employed at big law. That might be optimistic. A lot of places have certain gpa cutoffs and class rank thresholds that the career center doesn't tell you about. I will say though, that it's known that if you are top 10% you really really need to be a social leper to not get a job at big law. I don't know about v10, but you'll get a job unless you are the worst interviewer they have ever seen.

User avatar
ndirish2010
Posts: 2950
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:41 pm

Re: Top 6% at Fordham. Where to bid?

Postby ndirish2010 » Fri Jul 08, 2011 4:24 pm

If Cardozo doesn't place any better than midwest T25s in NYC, why would anyone ever go there?

Aston2412
Posts: 466
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 11:23 am

Re: Top 6% at Fordham. Where to bid?

Postby Aston2412 » Fri Jul 08, 2011 4:34 pm

ndirish2010 wrote:If Cardozo doesn't place any better than midwest T25s in NYC, why would anyone ever go there?


They wanted to do law school in NYC maybe?




Return to “Legal Employment”

Who is online

The online users are hidden on this forum.