slightly above median at UW-Madison... OCI????

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Anonymous User
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slightly above median at UW-Madison... OCI????

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:23 pm

I am ever so slightly above median at UW Madison (prob like top 47% or something). Do I even bother bidding on any firms at OCI? I know there are some smaller firms (25-75 attorney firms) that only require top 50 but ... who knows if they would even look at me. Also some NLJ 250 firms will say that they prefer top 30%... do I even bother applying to something like that?

Also how much will my 1L summer employment potentially help me out? The firm I am working for has individuals that seem to know every attorney in WI and one of the attorneys I am working with has a significant leadership position with the state bar. Additionally I have been essentially running two cases by myself this summer (very complicated cases) giving me great practical experience.

Overall any advice would be very much appreciated.

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thesealocust
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Re: slightly above median at UW-Madison... OCI????

Postby thesealocust » Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:58 pm

Three things:

(1) You are extremely unlikely to land a summer position at OCI. No two ways about it.

(2) That doesn't mean it's not worth bidding; you never know. Always try to get interviews, your tuition dollars are paying for that program after all.

(3)
thesealocust wrote:
thesealocust wrote:
thesealocust wrote:
thesealocust wrote:A wise and insightful person once wrote:

PSA - when a firm lists its GPA preference and requirements, you should do the following: Ignore them entirely and mother fucking ask career services.

Firms lie through their god damned teeth on those things, and I want to keep harping on it, because it is VERY IMPORTANT TO YOUR CAREER PROSPECTS. The firms are lying or naive or outsourcing their symplicity profiles to India or who knows what, but if you ask a 3 year old with a box of crayons to draw you the cut off for a firm you'll get a better answer than the firm's published cutoff on your OCI software.

Firms aren't consistently high, or consistently low - they're just consistently full of shit. A firm that says "top third required" might hire to median, it might hire from the top 3% without exception, and there's even a remote chance it will hire from the top third. But those pieces of data simply cannot be relied upon at all. Not even in a cursory way. Not for comparison's sake, not when nothing else will do. You need to completely disregard them, and beg/borrow/steal data from career services. Your (and that's the royal 'your' for everyone out their reading in paranoid law student land) career depends on it.

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dresden doll
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Re: slightly above median at UW-Madison... OCI????

Postby dresden doll » Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:01 pm

Of course you should do OCI. Do you seriously have anything more worthwhile to do with your time than to try out for interviews that can at least in theory lead to a permanent position after graduation?

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Re: slightly above median at UW-Madison... OCI????

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:18 pm

I mean I will obviously give it a shot but I was just wondering if I really even have a chance. I realize that the smaller firms will at least probably give me a look, but i think it really comes down to how well my peers that are better ranked than me do. I am also wondering because I can't help but think that my time might be better spent pursuing firms and government positions outside of OCI. None the less though point 3 made by thesealocust was what I was really looking for.

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Re: slightly above median at UW-Madison... OCI????

Postby Aston2412 » Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:26 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I mean I will obviously give it a shot but I was just wondering if I really even have a chance. I realize that the smaller firms will at least probably give me a look, but i think it really comes down to how well my peers that are better ranked than me do. I am also wondering because I can't help but think that my time might be better spent pursuing firms and government positions outside of OCI. None the less though point 3 made by thesealocust was what I was really looking for.


Your time is better spent pursuing both. Firms come to OCI for a reason - they have an interest in candidates from your school - don't undervalue that.

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Re: slightly above median at UW-Madison... OCI????

Postby XxSpyKEx » Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:34 pm

thesealocust wrote:
thesealocust wrote:
thesealocust wrote:
thesealocust wrote:A wise and insightful person once wrote:

PSA - when a firm lists its GPA preference and requirements, you should do the following: Ignore them entirely and mother fucking ask career services.

Firms lie through their god damned teeth on those things, and I want to keep harping on it, because it is VERY IMPORTANT TO YOUR CAREER PROSPECTS. The firms are lying or naive or outsourcing their symplicity profiles to India or who knows what, but if you ask a 3 year old with a box of crayons to draw you the cut off for a firm you'll get a better answer than the firm's published cutoff on your OCI software.

Firms aren't consistently high, or consistently low - they're just consistently full of shit. A firm that says "top third required" might hire to median, it might hire from the top 3% without exception, and there's even a remote chance it will hire from the top third. But those pieces of data simply cannot be relied upon at all. Not even in a cursory way. Not for comparison's sake, not when nothing else will do. You need to completely disregard them, and beg/borrow/steal data from career services. Your (and that's the royal 'your' for everyone out their reading in paranoid law student land) career depends on it.
[/quote]

Don’t most schools have some sort of internal GPA chart that document hiring trends based on the students that each firm actually hired in past years (e.g. a GPA chart that has the number of students each firm hired in 2010, the high GPA, the median GPA, and the low GPA)? That sort of information is pretty useful. The requirements a firm actually advertises in terms of what it is looking for is not.

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Re: slightly above median at UW-Madison... OCI????

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jun 23, 2011 7:44 am

Anyone have ideas about how top 20% at UW- Madison would do at OCI? Also, what kind of possibilities would top 20% have in east coast markets?

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TTH
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Re: slightly above median at UW-Madison... OCI????

Postby TTH » Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:37 am

out of curiosity, how many firms/companies are coming to OCI? We've only got 34 coming here, and while some are hiring for multiple offices, I'm a little stunned the number is so low.

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Re: slightly above median at UW-Madison... OCI????

Postby tww909 » Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:32 pm

TTH wrote:out of curiosity, how many firms/companies are coming to OCI? We've only got 34 coming here, and while some are hiring for multiple offices, I'm a little stunned the number is so low.


i count 59

http://law.wisc.edu/career/oci_firms.htm

Anonymous User wrote:Anyone have ideas about how top 20% at UW- Madison would do at OCI? Also, what kind of possibilities would top 20% have in east coast markets?


you're definitely going to have to mass mail, but other than that it's really hard to speculate without knowing the specific east coast market you're interested in. looking at this years "where students are working" spreadsheet it doesn't look terribly optimistic:

http://law.wisc.edu/career/documents/wh ... orked.html (you'll have to log in to look at it).

i don't actually know the people doing the NYC SAs, but i would bet significant sums they are top 10% at a minimum.

XxSpyKEx wrote:
thesealocust wrote:A wise and insightful person once wrote:

PSA - when a firm lists its GPA preference and requirements, you should do the following: Ignore them entirely and mother fucking ask career services.

Firms lie through their god damned teeth on those things, and I want to keep harping on it, because it is VERY IMPORTANT TO YOUR CAREER PROSPECTS. The firms are lying or naive or outsourcing their symplicity profiles to India or who knows what, but if you ask a 3 year old with a box of crayons to draw you the cut off for a firm you'll get a better answer than the firm's published cutoff on your OCI software.

Firms aren't consistently high, or consistently low - they're just consistently full of shit. A firm that says "top third required" might hire to median, it might hire from the top 3% without exception, and there's even a remote chance it will hire from the top third. But those pieces of data simply cannot be relied upon at all. Not even in a cursory way. Not for comparison's sake, not when nothing else will do. You need to completely disregard them, and beg/borrow/steal data from career services. Your (and that's the royal 'your' for everyone out their reading in paranoid law student land) career depends on it.


Don’t most schools have some sort of internal GPA chart that document hiring trends based on the students that each firm actually hired in past years (e.g. a GPA chart that has the number of students each firm hired in 2010, the high GPA, the median GPA, and the low GPA)? That sort of information is pretty useful. The requirements a firm actually advertises in terms of what it is looking for is not.


most schools do have something like that, however as far as i am aware we do not have such a thing. the closest thing might be this garbage: --LinkRemoved--

people should not get me started on our bullshit worthless career services office. if worthless uninformative meetings were callbacks we would all have full time post grad gigs. instead nobody knows anything (including me) and somehow i'm answering questions in this thread.

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tww909
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Re: slightly above median at UW-Madison... OCI????

Postby tww909 » Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:41 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I am ever so slightly above median at UW Madison (prob like top 47% or something). Do I even bother bidding on any firms at OCI? I know there are some smaller firms (25-75 attorney firms) that only require top 50 but ... who knows if they would even look at me. Also some NLJ 250 firms will say that they prefer top 30%... do I even bother applying to something like that?

Also how much will my 1L summer employment potentially help me out? The firm I am working for has individuals that seem to know every attorney in WI and one of the attorneys I am working with has a significant leadership position with the state bar. Additionally I have been essentially running two cases by myself this summer (very complicated cases) giving me great practical experience.

Overall any advice would be very much appreciated.


you should definitely bid. do you have any connection to non-madison/milwaukee parts of the state? if so you should definitely seek out any that are coming to OCI because there will almost certainly be less demand for interview slots. furthermore, if you do have a connection like that mass mail every firm in that area, and include personalized cover letters playing up your experience/connections with the firm you're working at etc. also milk the attorney connections you are making this summer for all they're worth. ask them to introduce you to people, network, profit.

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Re: slightly above median at UW-Madison... OCI????

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 24, 2011 6:03 pm

Yes due to my position I have I should have pretty decent connections throughout the state, but especially towards green bay and the fox cities. I know there are a few firms from the area that will be OCI so I will definetly bid on those firms. Thanks for all the advice everyone it has been very helpful.

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Re: slightly above median at UW-Madison... OCI????

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 24, 2011 6:11 pm

tww909 wrote:
TTH wrote:out of curiosity, how many firms/companies are coming to OCI? We've only got 34 coming here, and while some are hiring for multiple offices, I'm a little stunned the number is so low.


i count 59

http://law.wisc.edu/career/oci_firms.htm

quote]


While 59 is not great I think it is better than it has been over the past few years. It is good to see the Chicago and Twin Cities firms are back at UW. I have a feeling there will probably be a few more firms that will be added but probably no more than 5 and they will be in later phases.

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Re: slightly above median at UW-Madison... OCI????

Postby tww909 » Sun Jun 26, 2011 2:49 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
tww909 wrote:
TTH wrote:out of curiosity, how many firms/companies are coming to OCI? We've only got 34 coming here, and while some are hiring for multiple offices, I'm a little stunned the number is so low.


i count 59

http://law.wisc.edu/career/oci_firms.htm

quote]


While 59 is not great I think it is better than it has been over the past few years. It is good to see the Chicago and Twin Cities firms are back at UW. I have a feeling there will probably be a few more firms that will be added but probably no more than 5 and they will be in later phases.


i agree on the improvement point, though i'm not sure chicago is really back completely. as far as i'm aware sidley and jones day were both at oci last year (and may even have been in '09), and there's at least one SA from UW at each now. i don't know if firms like K&E, latham, or mayer brown ever came to our OCI, but i wouldn't hold my breath on them coming this year. anyone interested in chicago (and this includes me) needs to be doing a lot of direct mailing/resume collection and legwork to get interviews than people at t14s and probably UIUC.

twin cities does look good though, but it's my understanding that the market there wasn't hit as hard as chicago's, and i don't think they ever really stopped coming to our OCI.

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Re: slightly above median at UW-Madison... OCI????

Postby tww909 » Sun Jun 26, 2011 2:57 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Yes due to my position I have I should have pretty decent connections throughout the state, but especially towards green bay and the fox cities. I know there are a few firms from the area that will be OCI so I will definetly bid on those firms. Thanks for all the advice everyone it has been very helpful.


right - the fox valley gb firms that are coming are worth bids. i know liebmann conway in green bay hires two SAs per year, usually one from marquette and one from madison. i don't know how picky they are (though the guy i know who SAed there and got an offer was EIC of the int'l law journal and i'm guessing was top 25%+) that said, i don't think it means you shouldn't bid. if you have accounting or business connections i know they eat that shit up too.

my broader point was don't count on OCI in NE Wisconsin or non-madison/mke markets either - the competition to get interview slots there shouldn't be as great, but if you absolutely want to work in a firm and are willing to work in those places you should be direct mailing those firms and possibly throwing out a date as well ("i'll be in green bay/fox cities/wherever your connections are from august 15-20 and would love to set up a time for me to come in and chat") that way you have a chance to at least get your foot in the door before other people strike out at OCI and go for fall back plans. most firms like that aren't going to know what kind of summer needs they're going to have that early, but if you do that you should hopefully be able to make a good enough impression that if they decide they're looking for an SA in november/december or later and you don't have a plan you're on their mind.

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Re: slightly above median at UW-Madison... OCI????

Postby Sup Kid » Sun Jun 26, 2011 3:21 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Additionally I have been essentially running two cases by myself this summer (very complicated cases) giving me great practical experience.

Do not say this during interviews -- you will seem like you are lying. Instead, explain exactly what you did (wrote 3 motions, researched points X, Y, & Z, etc) rather than "I ran 2 complicated cases by myself."

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Re: slightly above median at UW-Madison... OCI????

Postby missinglink » Sun Jun 26, 2011 3:48 pm

Sup Kid wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Additionally I have been essentially running two cases by myself this summer (very complicated cases) giving me great practical experience.

Do not say this during interviews -- you will seem like you are lying. Instead, explain exactly what you did (wrote 3 motions, researched points X, Y, & Z, etc) rather than "I ran 2 complicated cases by myself."

Totally beside the point, but is "running 2 cases by myself" even ethically permitted? You aren't admitted to the bar. I can just imagine the look on the client's fact if they were told someone doing their 1L summer was in charge of the case. :lol:

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Re: slightly above median at UW-Madison... OCI????

Postby tww909 » Sun Jun 26, 2011 4:26 pm

missinglink wrote:
Sup Kid wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Additionally I have been essentially running two cases by myself this summer (very complicated cases) giving me great practical experience.

Do not say this during interviews -- you will seem like you are lying. Instead, explain exactly what you did (wrote 3 motions, researched points X, Y, & Z, etc) rather than "I ran 2 complicated cases by myself."

Totally beside the point, but is "running 2 cases by myself" even ethically permitted? You aren't admitted to the bar. I can just imagine the look on the client's fact if they were told someone doing their 1L summer was in charge of the case. :lol:


wisconsin bar permits 1Ls to represent clients (though not in court) under the supervision of a licensed attorney.

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Re: slightly above median at UW-Madison... OCI????

Postby missinglink » Sun Jun 26, 2011 5:14 pm

Interesting. I suppose as long as the supervision is adequate, there's nothing inherently wrong with the practice. I'm still not sure I'd want that if I were paying for representation, though.

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Re: slightly above median at UW-Madison... OCI????

Postby tww909 » Sun Jun 26, 2011 5:37 pm

missinglink wrote:Interesting. I suppose as long as the supervision is adequate, there's nothing inherently wrong with the practice. I'm still not sure I'd want that if I were paying for representation, though.


yeah i don't really know what the OP really meant by that statement, i only know the rule in the context of clinical programs. student attorneys are certainly running cases on their own with the assistance of a supervising attorneys, however their review sounds pretty strict, and the supervising attorneys certainly have a strong influence over what is going on.

i work at a firm (and i'm a rising 2L) not only can i not imagine our clients being happy with me running cases, i'm also sufficiently aware of my own ignorance to know that given the option to run files by myself is probably not such a great idea.

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Re: slightly above median at UW-Madison... OCI????

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jun 26, 2011 11:54 pm

I should clarify... by me saying I am running two cases by myself I mean that I am doing far more than the average rising 2L is probably doing over the summer. The cases were at different stages once I started. Its not like I am working on them from start to finish. However, since I have started working I have been working exclusively on the cases by myself. However, before anything is every submitted to the court or to the opposing counsel everything is obviously reviewed very carefully. Also I am constantly asking questions and getting pointers from the attorneys. What I mean to say is I am getting a better experience than most rising 2ls in that I am not just researching and writing memos but i am actually participating in discovery, doing the research, writing motions ect. I think students in the clincals tend to get just as of an experience if not better, but that tends to be in the criminal law realm. Overall the degree of independence I am given is probably comparable to some of the clinicals where the students pretty much run the case and the attorneys are just there to advice them, answer questions, and check their work.

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Re: slightly above median at UW-Madison... OCI????

Postby Sup Kid » Mon Jun 27, 2011 12:19 am

Anonymous User wrote:I am not just researching and writing memos but i am actually participating in discovery, doing the research, writing motions

That is what you say during an interview, not "I'm running cases." Hate to break it to you though, lots of rising 2Ls do similar things, especially when at a DA or USAO, where there are far too many cases for the regular attorneys to handle. Still good experience, but don't expect much of a bump because of it.

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Re: slightly above median at UW-Madison... OCI????

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jun 27, 2011 1:59 am

Sup Kid wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I am not just researching and writing memos but i am actually participating in discovery, doing the research, writing motions

That is what you say during an interview, not "I'm running cases." Hate to break it to you though, lots of rising 2Ls do similar things, especially when at a DA or USAO, where there are far too many cases for the regular attorneys to handle. Still good experience, but don't expect much of a bump because of it.


Ya I definetly wouldn't say it like that during an interview. However, I must say that I was not aware that many rising 2ls perform similar tasks.




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