Wachtell, Lipton, Rosen, & Katz Questions Forum

[Kronk]

I think one of the things 0Ls don't realize is that $200k of debt at 8% is absolutely crushing. Your loan payment is as much as your rent. And that's the minimum payment which will take you 10 years to pay off, even though you'll only last 3-5 years in biglaw on average. If you're not prudent about planning for that you end up like Elie - 3 yrs of biglaw and defaulted on loans.

What is the 3-5 year stat? People get fired or people get burned out? Or both?

If you're prudent, you can make a huge dent in $200k in the first four years and even if you transfer in house or somewhere where you only bring in $100k or so, you'll be fine.

[thesealocust]

What is the 3-5 year stat? People get fired or people get burned out? Or both?

At most big firms, something like 20% of the associates leave every year. It's a healthy mix of exit opportunities (often w/ better hours and), the burn out from firm work, and layoffs / poor performance pressure (though at many firms that is rare). Only a tiny, tiny fraction of most starting classes stays on to become counsel or partner.

[fatduck]

whenever i see WLRK i think Wrath of the Lich King. should i mention this in my cover letter?

[Anonymous User]

Just to clear some myths up, wlrk is far from a one trick m&a shop. It's litigation practice is small but one of the best (http://www.chambersandpartners.com/USA/Editorial/43206) and it's bankruptcy and tax practices are similarly top notch ( http://www.chambersandpartners.com/USA/ ... 9#org_4210 and http://www.chambersandpartners.com/USA/ ... 0#org_4210 ).

What does separate wlrk from it's peers is how leanly staffed projects are coupled with a very low leverage ratio, giving young associates much more responsibility. This is also reflected in the firms rpl (http://www.law.com/jsp/tal/PubArticleTA ... 2494428528).

As for the hours, they are rough for sure but not much different from those at cravath or sullcrom. 3200 certainly isn't the average but all of big law works grueling hours and an m&a associate at skadden does not have a work/life that is materially better than a wlrk m&a associate.

Also, as to pe work, it's pretty well known that wtb basically represents every major fund, the exception being wlrk repping Apollo. Kirkland also does a lot but doesn't have much of a foothold among the megafunds. And hf work frankly sucks and I don't know why you would want to do it as a lawyer except for some bizarre desire to be associated with the mystique of a hf. With the exception of activist funds which can deal with cool Corp gov issues, the vast majority of hf work is quite dull. Granted if you want to move in-house to a fund, it's probably best to have as much contact with their lawyers as possible. However, if you want to move to the biz side of a fund, you'll be much better served coming from a Corp/restructuring group that you would from a funds group.

If you aren't averse to working in NYC, wlrk really should be your top choice unless you are looking for a small litigation boutique or a dedicated appellate practice.

[Old Gregg]

It's litigation practice is small but one of the best (http://www.chambersandpartners.com/USA/Editorial/43206)

To be sure, it was Band 2 on chambers last year. This isn't to say that WLRK isn't good, but rather to say that nothing much changed at WLRK lit between this year and last, that the difference between Band 1 and Band 2 in NYC lit isn't really significant, and what it really comes down to is the type of litigation the attorneys do. WLRK, Cleary, DPW, etc. are going to be one-trick ponies in the sense that they'll be doing a lot of litigation related to the financial sector and M&A. Skadden, K&E, Quinn, Cravath, Boies, and a few others in NYC have substantial litigation expertise in other fields that are far more likely to head to trial and are probably more aligned to what an aspiring litigator is looking to do as a professional.

[Anonymous User]

Agreed than band 1/2 is immaterial. Just saying that it's a misconception that wlrk litigation is somehow weak.

It definitely does do a lot of deal litigation but it's not even close to being a majority of their practice. It does do a good amount of white collar and general commercial lit as well. I think the bigger difference is in terms of responsibility. I will grant that there are great opps at quinn/boies/cravath (and if you've positioned yourself well, pw). However, when you're comparing wlrk to firms with far greater leverage, the experience you get as a young associate is just going to be better at wlrk.

[Anonymous User]

As for the hours, they are rough for sure but not much different from those at cravath or sullcrom. 3200 certainly isn't the average but all of big law works grueling hours and an m&a associate at skadden does not have a work/life that is materially better than a wlrk m&a associate.

Keep thinking that. Average billables at Sullcrom is around 2300 maybe 2400. The difference between that and 2900-3000 at WLRK is massive. One is 13hrs/day. The other is 16hrs/day. One lets you get 8 hours of sleep and some time to relax. The other is sleep for 6 hours and work the rest of the time (hell, my friend who is a WLRK summer associate basically summed it up that way). Skadden is even lower at around 2100-2200 hours billed. There are also pretty lax face time policies at Skadden and Sullcrom which I doubt is present at a small boutique like WLRK.

There's a huge difference in quality of life.

And talking to M&A associates at Sullcrom, their M&A deals are also pretty leanly staffed. Average 2 associates, 3 max, on a typical M&A deal. The biggest deals have more, but there is more work to go around. Talking to a WLRK senior associate, he said 2-3 associates on any given deal is common at WLRK, too. He also said due diligence work is still ever-present and loaded on to junior associates. A Sullcrom 3rd-year I talked to said he was already handling 50m-100m M&A deals by himself -- a typical result if you can prove yourself competent to your supervising partner.

[Anonymous User]

isn't herbert wachtell supposed to be one of the best litigators? why does he not attract the same mystique as boise on this board?

also hf and pe don't hire lawyers because they have absolutely no valuation or investment skills. maybe they'll hire them as in-house counsel but i don't think this is what you were referring to since you certainly don't need wachtell on your resume to work in-house at some fund. however, i have met quite a few bankers who were former wachtell associates.

you can probably make partner if you stay there for 8 years. but the thing is, if you have the stamina to stay there for 8 years, you probably have the stamina to be an investment banker. and coming from wachtell it shouldn't be too hard to lateral into banking. so there is really no reason to stay there for 8 years.

[Anonymous User]

I met with Marty Lipton at the firm this summer. From my brief visit it seemed like a high stakes kind of place: people running in the halls, stressed out looking associates. I liked the office, as it's in the Eero Saarinen designed CBS building, but it is older. According to Lipton you will work long hours, but you will get to work on High Stakes, High prestige work, and you will be well compensated. They know most wont be able to handle the 3000 or so hours, but everyone knows going in what they are in for. This isn't the place you start at if you want to have kids right away or be able to plan dates and movies w/ friends.

[Anonymous User]

I met with Marty Lipton at the firm this summer. From my brief visit it seemed like a high stakes kind of place: people running in the halls, stressed out looking associates. I liked the office, as it's in the Eero Saarinen designed CBS building, but it is older. According to Lipton you will work long hours, but you will get to work on High Stakes, High prestige work, and you will be well compensated. They know most wont be able to handle the 3000 or so hours, but everyone knows going in what they are in for. This isn't the place you start at if you want to have kids right away or be able to plan dates and movies w/ friends.

You can get high stakes, high prestige M&A work at S&C, Skadden, DPW or STB without having to live in your office for a couple of years. Cravath has pretty bad hours too, though.

[ToTransferOrNot]

I met with Marty Lipton at the firm this summer. From my brief visit it seemed like a high stakes kind of place: people running in the halls, stressed out looking associates. I liked the office, as it's in the Eero Saarinen designed CBS building, but it is older. According to Lipton you will work long hours, but you will get to work on High Stakes, High prestige work, and you will be well compensated. They know most wont be able to handle the 3000 or so hours, but everyone knows going in what they are in for. This isn't the place you start at if you want to have kids right away or be able to plan dates and movies w/ friends.

You can get high stakes, high prestige M&A work at S&C, Skadden, DPW or STB without having to live in your office for a couple of years. Cravath has pretty bad hours too, though.

The difference, of course, is that your bonuses at those other firms aren't going to be 50-80% of base pay. The extra hours you put in are well paid for.

[vamedic03]

Why is there a running argument between anonymous posters as to the strengths and weaknesses of WLRK versus other V5's. Until someone starts posting non-anonymously, I'm going to assume that everyone involved in the argument is a 1L or 0L.

FWIW - WLRK and BSF both have great pay structures. But, there are plenty of other firms that are performing the same, top notch work. Companies don't hire SullCrom or DPW over WLRK to save money.

[Anonymous User]

Why is there a running argument between anonymous posters as to the strengths and weaknesses of WLRK versus other V5's. Until someone starts posting non-anonymously, I'm going to assume that everyone involved in the argument is a 1L or 0L.

FWIW - WLRK and BSF both have great pay structures. But, there are plenty of other firms that are performing the same, top notch work. Companies don't hire SullCrom or DPW over WLRK to save money.

yeah but they are all highly leveraged compared to WLRK....offer less experience early.....less pay......less prestigious exit options.....and lower partnership prospects

other than that I guess you could say they are the same

[Old Gregg]

Why is there a running argument between anonymous posters as to the strengths and weaknesses of WLRK versus other V5's. Until someone starts posting non-anonymously, I'm going to assume that everyone involved in the argument is a 1L or 0L.

FWIW - WLRK and BSF both have great pay structures. But, there are plenty of other firms that are performing the same, top notch work. Companies don't hire SullCrom or DPW over WLRK to save money.

yeah but they are all highly leveraged compared to WLRK....offer less experience early.....less pay......less prestigious exit options.....and lower partnership prospects

other than that I guess you could say they are the same

Yup. And wasn't Wachtell on one of the big govt buy-outs during the financial collapse? Yeah, their guys probably worked hellish hours, but nothing could have been more high-stakes or cutting edge than what they did. The risks they took in orchestrating the deal and negotiating for what they did pretty much made the buy-out happen and prevented what could have been an even bigger catastrophe.

[vamedic03]

Why is there a running argument between anonymous posters as to the strengths and weaknesses of WLRK versus other V5's. Until someone starts posting non-anonymously, I'm going to assume that everyone involved in the argument is a 1L or 0L.

FWIW - WLRK and BSF both have great pay structures. But, there are plenty of other firms that are performing the same, top notch work. Companies don't hire SullCrom or DPW over WLRK to save money.

yeah but they are all highly leveraged compared to WLRK....offer less experience early.....less pay......less prestigious exit options.....and lower partnership prospects

other than that I guess you could say they are the same

(1) How do you know they offer less experience early? On the transactional side, the associates I've talked to at non-WLRK V5 certainly sound like they have significant experience early on. Further, assuming that both WLRK and SullCrom (for example) are doing the same size deals and assuming that both deals require the same degree of due diligence, wouldn't leaner staffing suggest that more midlevel associates are doing due diligence.

(2) Can you provide examples of the prestigious exit option open to a midlevel associate at WLRK that is not open to a midlevel at DPW?

(3) Partnership prospects are dim throughout the majority of the V10.

Are you willing to post any answers without using the anonymous feature? You certainly aren't revealing personal information. And, nothing being discussed here is controversial or inflammatory.

[vamedic03]

Why is there a running argument between anonymous posters as to the strengths and weaknesses of WLRK versus other V5's. Until someone starts posting non-anonymously, I'm going to assume that everyone involved in the argument is a 1L or 0L.

FWIW - WLRK and BSF both have great pay structures. But, there are plenty of other firms that are performing the same, top notch work. Companies don't hire SullCrom or DPW over WLRK to save money.

yeah but they are all highly leveraged compared to WLRK....offer less experience early.....less pay......less prestigious exit options.....and lower partnership prospects

other than that I guess you could say they are the same

Yup. And wasn't Wachtell on one of the big govt buy-outs during the financial collapse? Yeah, their guys probably worked hellish hours, but nothing could have been more high-stakes or cutting edge than what they did. The risks they took in orchestrating the deal and negotiating for what they did pretty much made the buy-out happen and prevented what could have been an even bigger catastrophe.

STB - advised the government throughout the collapse.

Weil - lead representation of Lehman and GM bankruptcies.

SullCrom - Rodge Cohen was the go-to guy for all the banks at the peak of the crisis.

All the V10 is extremely good at what they do. People in this thread, posting anonymously, seem to like to trash the rest of the V5.

[quakeroats]

James Cole Jr. barely registered a blip on the radar screen until he made partner earlier this year at New York's Wachtell, Lipton, Rosen & Katz, erasing the firm's distinction as the last of the most profitable firms that hadn't elected its first African-American partner. Since then, Cole's become the talk of the town -- particularly within the elite circle of black partners and general counsel. Sharon Bowen, an African-American partner at Latham & Watkins' New York office, says that when Cole's name surfaced, the question on people's lips was, "Where's this guy been all this time?"

Cole has been invisible because he's been working hard -- very hard. "I've been billing 3,400 hours a year for the last seven years," he says. Now that he's made it, the 36-year-old M&A lawyer and Harlem resident says he intends to become much more active in the black community -- particularly the Urban League and NAACP, among others.

Paul, Weiss, Rifkind, Wharton & Garrison's Theodore Wells Jr., part of the black bar's old guard, says Cole came to see him about "what his appointment means to the black community." Wells was impressed: "I think he will make a broader contribution. He's not somebody who will say, 'I'm a partner at a major firm -- and that's my contribution.'"

Wachtell, meanwhile, is downplaying the significance of finally having a black member in its select club. Managing partner Daniel Neff says Cole's election was just an "extremely logical outcome" because he had been a "spectacular" associate. But Neff is coy about whether Cole's position will help black recruitment: "I can't assess how people will respond."

Making partner at Wachtell, says Cole, is "not a race issue -- it's a personality issue." With two potential black partners now in the pipeline, Wachtell has always been a meritocracy, says Cole: "It's no more difficult before or after [my partnership]. I don't feel we couldn't have made it before."

http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1087855514925

[Old Gregg]

Why is there a running argument between anonymous posters as to the strengths and weaknesses of WLRK versus other V5's. Until someone starts posting non-anonymously, I'm going to assume that everyone involved in the argument is a 1L or 0L.

FWIW - WLRK and BSF both have great pay structures. But, there are plenty of other firms that are performing the same, top notch work. Companies don't hire SullCrom or DPW over WLRK to save money.

yeah but they are all highly leveraged compared to WLRK....offer less experience early.....less pay......less prestigious exit options.....and lower partnership prospects

other than that I guess you could say they are the same

Yup. And wasn't Wachtell on one of the big govt buy-outs during the financial collapse? Yeah, their guys probably worked hellish hours, but nothing could have been more high-stakes or cutting edge than what they did. The risks they took in orchestrating the deal and negotiating for what they did pretty much made the buy-out happen and prevented what could have been an even bigger catastrophe.

STB - advised the government throughout the collapse.

Weil - lead representation of Lehman and GM bankruptcies.

SullCrom - Rodge Cohen was the go-to guy for all the banks at the peak of the crisis.

All the V10 is extremely good at what they do. People in this thread, posting anonymously, seem to like to trash the rest of the V5.

I know what those firms did and do (and they're great), but I'd argue that what WLRK orchestrated was a lot more cutting-edge and high-stakes than what those firms did. I can't go into detail (mostly because I don't remember whether it was the Lehman Brothers or Bear Stearns thing that WLRK worked on), but I can recommend books that go into great detail about it.

And, by the way, the sheer number of associates working on the matters above pretty much means they got less responsibility than the associate working on the WLRK buyout during the economic collapse. You can't argue with a straight face that being an associate on the Lehman Bros. bankruptcy is even remotely comparable to being on that WLRK M&A/litigation team.

[vamedic03]

This is getting a bit ridiculous. It seems like a bunch of 1Ls and 2Ls are arguing that WLRK does some sort of mythical work that SullCrom, Skadden, etc. is incapable of doing.

Yes, WLRK pays very well and yes, they are very good at what they do. But, they are certainly not 'better' in a real world sense than SullCrom, Skadden, DPW, etc.

[Helmholtz]

James Cole Jr. barely registered a blip on the radar screen until he made partner earlier this year at New York's Wachtell, Lipton, Rosen & Katz, erasing the firm's distinction as the last of the most profitable firms that hadn't elected its first African-American partner. Since then, Cole's become the talk of the town -- particularly within the elite circle of black partners and general counsel. Sharon Bowen, an African-American partner at Latham & Watkins' New York office, says that when Cole's name surfaced, the question on people's lips was, "Where's this guy been all this time?"

Cole has been invisible because he's been working hard -- very hard. "I've been billing 3,400 hours a year for the last seven years," he says. Now that he's made it, the 36-year-old M&A lawyer and Harlem resident says he intends to become much more active in the black community -- particularly the Urban League and NAACP, among others.

Paul, Weiss, Rifkind, Wharton & Garrison's Theodore Wells Jr., part of the black bar's old guard, says Cole came to see him about "what his appointment means to the black community." Wells was impressed: "I think he will make a broader contribution. He's not somebody who will say, 'I'm a partner at a major firm -- and that's my contribution.'"

Wachtell, meanwhile, is downplaying the significance of finally having a black member in its select club. Managing partner Daniel Neff says Cole's election was just an "extremely logical outcome" because he had been a "spectacular" associate. But Neff is coy about whether Cole's position will help black recruitment: "I can't assess how people will respond."

Making partner at Wachtell, says Cole, is "not a race issue -- it's a personality issue." With two potential black partners now in the pipeline, Wachtell has always been a meritocracy, says Cole: "It's no more difficult before or after [my partnership]. I don't feel we couldn't have made it before."

James Cole, Jr. = the best interviewer you could possibly ever have at an OCI.

[Old Gregg]

This is getting a bit ridiculous. It seems like a bunch of 1Ls and 2Ls are arguing that WLRK does some sort of mythical work that SullCrom, Skadden, etc. is incapable of doing.

Yes, WLRK pays very well and yes, they are very good at what they do. But, they are certainly not 'better' in a real world sense than SullCrom, Skadden, DPW, etc.

I'm not a 1L, 2L, or 3L, so aren't you assuming too much? And I'm not saying that other firms are "incapable" of doing what WLRK does. I'm saying that, even if WLRK and the rest of the V5 do the same work, the fact that there are far fewer associates at WLRK guarantees that you'll get a heck of a lot more responsibility early on. It doesn't take a genius to figure that out.

[Anonymous User]

This is getting a bit ridiculous. It seems like a bunch of 1Ls and 2Ls are arguing that WLRK does some sort of mythical work that SullCrom, Skadden, etc. is incapable of doing.

Yes, WLRK pays very well and yes, they are very good at what they do. But, they are certainly not 'better' in a real world sense than SullCrom, Skadden, DPW, etc.

I'm not a 1L, 2L, or 3L, so aren't you assuming too much? And I'm not saying that other firms are "incapable" of doing what WLRK does. I'm saying that, even if WLRK and the rest of the V5 do the same work, the fact that there are far fewer associates at WLRK guarantees that you'll get a heck of a lot more responsibility early on. It doesn't take a genius to figure that out.

ding ding....we have a winner

I don't know why vamedic03 seems so intent on proving to us that WLRK is "pretty much the same" as the rest of the V5. No one denies that it takes two sides to make a deal and that any deal that WLRK works on pretty much guarantees that another V5 is working on that exact same deal. HOWEVER, the critical difference for younger associates is that because Wachtell is less leveraged than the rest of the V5, it pretty much guarantees that as a young associate your gonna get alot of experience than associates of the same year at other V5 firms.

Sure your also gonna do alot of the grunt work. Maybe even more than associates at other V5 firms because there aren't as many associates at WLRK. However, you'll also get to work on more substantive matters that mid-level associates at S&C or DPW are working on.

[vamedic03]

This is getting a bit ridiculous. It seems like a bunch of 1Ls and 2Ls are arguing that WLRK does some sort of mythical work that SullCrom, Skadden, etc. is incapable of doing.

Yes, WLRK pays very well and yes, they are very good at what they do. But, they are certainly not 'better' in a real world sense than SullCrom, Skadden, DPW, etc.

I'm not a 1L, 2L, or 3L, so aren't you assuming too much? And I'm not saying that other firms are "incapable" of doing what WLRK does. I'm saying that, even if WLRK and the rest of the V5 do the same work, the fact that there are far fewer associates at WLRK guarantees that you'll get a heck of a lot more responsibility early on. It doesn't take a genius to figure that out.

ding ding....we have a winner

I don't know why vamedic03 seems so intent on proving to us that WLRK is "pretty much the same" as the rest of the V5. No one denies that it takes two sides to make a deal and that any deal that WLRK works on pretty much guarantees that another V5 is working on that exact same deal. HOWEVER, the critical difference for younger associates is that because Wachtell is less leveraged than the rest of the V5, it pretty much guarantees that as a young associate your gonna get alot of experience than associates of the same year at other V5 firms.

Sure your also gonna do alot of the grunt work. Maybe even more than associates at other V5 firms because there aren't as many associates at WLRK. However, you'll also get to work on more substantive matters that mid-level associates at S&C or DPW are working on.

(1) Not intent on proving that it's "pretty much the same"

(2) More intent on getting people, like you, to stop abusing the anonymous feature. Posts like this absolutely do not need to be anonymous.

[vanwinkle]

I don't know why vamedic03 seems so intent on proving to us that WLRK is "pretty much the same" as the rest of the V5. No one denies that it takes two sides to make a deal and that any deal that WLRK works on pretty much guarantees that another V5 is working on that exact same deal. HOWEVER, the critical difference for younger associates is that because Wachtell is less leveraged than the rest of the V5, it pretty much guarantees that as a young associate your gonna get alot of experience than associates of the same year at other V5 firms.

Logical fallacy: Assumes direct correlation between employee leverage and ratio of "grunt"/"quality" work. You could be at a firm leveraged 1:1 and still do nothing but doc review your first year if that's the work they have for you. If they have a bunch of doc review to do just as you're starting, guess who's doing it? The new kids, that's who. And shit like that happens.

He does have a point about identifying yourself, though. What is the basis of your assertions? Since you're posting anonymously, you should have no problem sharing what firms you've worked at and what year you are in law school. Surely you should be willing to stand by your statements enough to share those things...

EDIT: I won't out you, but your posting history indicates that you are a rising 2L. This suggests that not only have you never worked in a law firm, you've yet to even finish OCI. Given this, I think you should definitely explain to everyone why you have much more knowledge about this subject than someone who's already been through OCI and 2L summer at a top law firm.

[Anonymous User]

fwiw last year wlrk gave out 3 SA offers @ nyu, only 1 of whom accepted.