Law firm recruiter answering questions for a bit

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Renzo
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Re: Law firm recruiter answering questions for a bit

Postby Renzo » Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:38 pm

kalvano wrote:Not to be presumptuous, but why wouldn't your resume have your GPA on it? All resumes should.



I Disagree. I was in a position to be reading a bunch of resumes lately. The ones with really high GPA's made an impression. Then there were a bunch of just-good GPA's, and it made me instantly mentally compare them with the people who did really great; whereas the resumes with no GPA, I just kept reading. I assume those who left them off didn't do so well, but I only got around to having that thought after I had read the rest of their resume.

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beach_terror
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Re: Law firm recruiter answering questions for a bit

Postby beach_terror » Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:39 pm

Renzo wrote:
kalvano wrote:Not to be presumptuous, but why wouldn't your resume have your GPA on it? All resumes should.



I Disagree. I was in a position to be reading a bunch of resumes lately. The ones with really high GPA's made an impression. Then there were a bunch of just-good GPA's, and it made me instantly mentally compare them with the people who did really great; whereas the resumes with no GPA, I just kept reading. I assume those who left them off didn't do so well, but I only got around to having that thought after I had read the rest of their resume.

Just out of curiosity, where did you make that mental cut off between really high and just good (percentile wise is fine).

keg411
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Re: Law firm recruiter answering questions for a bit

Postby keg411 » Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:41 pm

newyorker88 wrote:
kalvano wrote:Not to be presumptuous, but why wouldn't your resume have your GPA on it? All resumes should.


If your GPA is below a 3 it should not be on your resume. I've heard that from firms and career services.


Our career services told us the same thing.

Renzo
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Re: Law firm recruiter answering questions for a bit

Postby Renzo » Thu Jun 23, 2011 12:06 am

beach_terror wrote:
Renzo wrote:
kalvano wrote:Not to be presumptuous, but why wouldn't your resume have your GPA on it? All resumes should.



I Disagree. I was in a position to be reading a bunch of resumes lately. The ones with really high GPA's made an impression. Then there were a bunch of just-good GPA's, and it made me instantly mentally compare them with the people who did really great; whereas the resumes with no GPA, I just kept reading. I assume those who left them off didn't do so well, but I only got around to having that thought after I had read the rest of their resume.

Just out of curiosity, where did you make that mental cut off between really high and just good (percentile wise is fine).

I didn't really, it was all just snap impressions as I was trying to read through them really quickly. Every GPA drew my attention, but only a portion of them made me go, "damn, this person is smart!" For the others, it just drew my eye to something that (at least in a few cases) was not the most impressive thing on the page.

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beach_terror
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Re: Law firm recruiter answering questions for a bit

Postby beach_terror » Thu Jun 23, 2011 12:12 am

Renzo wrote:
beach_terror wrote:
Renzo wrote:
kalvano wrote:Not to be presumptuous, but why wouldn't your resume have your GPA on it? All resumes should.



I Disagree. I was in a position to be reading a bunch of resumes lately. The ones with really high GPA's made an impression. Then there were a bunch of just-good GPA's, and it made me instantly mentally compare them with the people who did really great; whereas the resumes with no GPA, I just kept reading. I assume those who left them off didn't do so well, but I only got around to having that thought after I had read the rest of their resume.

Just out of curiosity, where did you make that mental cut off between really high and just good (percentile wise is fine).

I didn't really, it was all just snap impressions as I was trying to read through them really quickly. Every GPA drew my attention, but only a portion of them made me go, "damn, this person is smart!" For the others, it just drew my eye to something that (at least in a few cases) was not the most impressive thing on the page.

Oh okay, yeah that makes sense. Guess a 3.5x doesn't put me in that "damn, Renzo thinks you're a boss" category :wink:

lawfirmrecruiter
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Re: Law firm recruiter answering questions for a bit

Postby lawfirmrecruiter » Thu Jun 23, 2011 8:51 am

newyorker88 wrote:
kalvano wrote:Not to be presumptuous, but why wouldn't your resume have your GPA on it? All resumes should.


If your GPA is below a 3 it should not be on your resume. I've heard that from firms and career services.


If it is not on there, I assume your GPA is low and will ask for it anyway. Still a red flag whether it is there or not. All recruiters see this one the same.

Anonymous User
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Re: Law firm recruiter answering questions for a bit

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jun 23, 2011 6:49 pm

lawfirmrecruiter wrote:
newyorker88 wrote:
kalvano wrote:Not to be presumptuous, but why wouldn't your resume have your GPA on it? All resumes should.


If your GPA is below a 3 it should not be on your resume. I've heard that from firms and career services.


If it is not on there, I assume your GPA is low and will ask for it anyway. Still a red flag whether it is there or not. All recruiters see this one the same.


If your GPA is low because of one class should you include your transcript when emailing firms before OCI? The dilemma I'm wondering about is if you don't attach your transcript they might assume you did poorly in all of your classes but if you do attach your transcript you'll bring attention to it.

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kalvano
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Re: Law firm recruiter answering questions for a bit

Postby kalvano » Thu Jun 23, 2011 8:29 pm

lawfirmrecruiter wrote:
newyorker88 wrote:
kalvano wrote:Not to be presumptuous, but why wouldn't your resume have your GPA on it? All resumes should.


If your GPA is below a 3 it should not be on your resume. I've heard that from firms and career services.


If it is not on there, I assume your GPA is low and will ask for it anyway. Still a red flag whether it is there or not. All recruiters see this one the same.



I was told to put my GPA on my resume, regardless of what it is. If it's close to a certain percentile, then include the percentile, but not if it's below top 50%. Is that correct, or should a GPA below 3.0 not be on your resume?

What about schools that curve to a 3.0 or lower?

missinglink
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Re: Law firm recruiter answering questions for a bit

Postby missinglink » Fri Jun 24, 2011 7:25 pm

Renzo wrote:
beach_terror wrote:
Renzo wrote:
kalvano wrote:Not to be presumptuous, but why wouldn't your resume have your GPA on it? All resumes should.



I Disagree. I was in a position to be reading a bunch of resumes lately. The ones with really high GPA's made an impression. Then there were a bunch of just-good GPA's, and it made me instantly mentally compare them with the people who did really great; whereas the resumes with no GPA, I just kept reading. I assume those who left them off didn't do so well, but I only got around to having that thought after I had read the rest of their resume.

Just out of curiosity, where did you make that mental cut off between really high and just good (percentile wise is fine).

I didn't really, it was all just snap impressions as I was trying to read through them really quickly. Every GPA drew my attention, but only a portion of them made me go, "damn, this person is smart!" For the others, it just drew my eye to something that (at least in a few cases) was not the most impressive thing on the page.


Could you expand on what exactly it drew you to that wasn't the most impressive thing on the page?

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Re: Law firm recruiter answering questions for a bit

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 24, 2011 7:47 pm

For schools without GPAs/letter grades (and/or schools that advise students to leave off their GPA unless they are applying to finance or consulting firms), I assume it's kosher to leave it off and send a transcript? Anyone at HYSB who has experience with this?

Anonymous User
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Re: Law firm recruiter answering questions for a bit

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 24, 2011 11:51 pm

If I'm the cut-off for top 10%, would it be wise for me to just include 'Top 10%' without listing my gpa? I don't want to be perceived as the kid who barely squeezed in the top 10%..

Anonymous User
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Re: Law firm recruiter answering questions for a bit

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 24, 2011 11:58 pm

If the class rank is not really high but is still top half, I recommend using fractions. "Top 1/2" looks better than "Top 50%"

goodolgil
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Re: Law firm recruiter answering questions for a bit

Postby goodolgil » Sat Jun 25, 2011 12:46 am

Anonymous User wrote:If I'm the cut-off for top 10%, would it be wise for me to just include 'Top 10%' without listing my gpa? I don't want to be perceived as the kid who barely squeezed in the top 10%..


Man, what is wrong with you people?

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GeePee
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Re: Law firm recruiter answering questions for a bit

Postby GeePee » Sat Jun 25, 2011 1:10 am

Anonymous User wrote:If I'm the cut-off for top 10%, would it be wise for me to just include 'Top 10%' without listing my gpa? I don't want to be perceived as the kid who barely squeezed in the top 10%..

This can't be serious.

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mjitbswyd
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Re: Law firm recruiter answering questions for a bit

Postby mjitbswyd » Sat Jun 25, 2011 9:55 am

Thank you for the thread.

I am working at a biglaw at one of its overseas office (1L summer). Will you ask whether they offered me to come back next summer? Should I ask the managing partner to write a letter saying we had a mutual understanding before the job began that I would not come back so they did not plan to offer me from the beginning (which is true)?

thank you

teem705
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Re: Law firm recruiter answering questions for a bit

Postby teem705 » Sat Jun 25, 2011 1:13 pm

For 3Ls, is the time to apply to firms the July before 3L year, or in the spring when we're about to graduate?

I know of some 3Ls from the class of 2011 at my school getting picked up by big firms right around when they're about to take the bar. And this would make sense with what you said about the broken hiring model- hiring when there's a need.

Thanks!

03121202698008
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Re: Law firm recruiter answering questions for a bit

Postby 03121202698008 » Sat Jun 25, 2011 1:44 pm

lawfirmrecruiter wrote:
newyorker88 wrote:
kalvano wrote:Not to be presumptuous, but why wouldn't your resume have your GPA on it? All resumes should.


If your GPA is below a 3 it should not be on your resume. I've heard that from firms and career services.


If it is not on there, I assume your GPA is low and will ask for it anyway. Still a red flag whether it is there or not. All recruiters see this one the same.


Would you put the approximate class rank if e-mailing to firms not coming to OCI? What if not entirely sure of the rank? Michigan doesn't rank us until graduation. They release a letter of approximate GPA/Percentile correlations based upon an average of graduating GPAs which are obviously higher. As best as I can tell, I'm either just inside or just outside of a particular class rank.

lawfirmrecruiter
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Re: Law firm recruiter answering questions for a bit

Postby lawfirmrecruiter » Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:41 pm

mjitbswyd wrote:Thank you for the thread.

I am working at a biglaw at one of its overseas office (1L summer). Will you ask whether they offered me to come back next summer? Should I ask the managing partner to write a letter saying we had a mutual understanding before the job began that I would not come back so they did not plan to offer me from the beginning (which is true)?

thank you


I would probably ask if you are planning to go back to your 1L firm, if not overseas, then to an office here in the States. If you say no, I will want to know why.

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japes
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Re: Law firm recruiter answering questions for a bit

Postby japes » Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:42 pm

japes wrote:
Cover letters are always tricky and can actually cause more troubles for a candidate. Keep it short and concise. Tell me you want to be in X city and come to my firm because of 1-2 reasons. Surely there are two sentences you can come up with to cover that. Any longer and it sounds like you are justifying your application.


Care to elaborate on this a little more? What are the things you like to see / don't want to see in a cover letter? As a 0L prepping cover letters for the 1L job search, any advice? I'm interested in PI but currently working a non-PI civil litigation lawjob.


bump, I think this got lost in the GPA debate.

lawfirmrecruiter
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Re: Law firm recruiter answering questions for a bit

Postby lawfirmrecruiter » Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:44 pm

teem705 wrote:For 3Ls, is the time to apply to firms the July before 3L year, or in the spring when we're about to graduate?

I know of some 3Ls from the class of 2011 at my school getting picked up by big firms right around when they're about to take the bar. And this would make sense with what you said about the broken hiring model- hiring when there's a need.

Thanks!


Timing for 3L hiring really depends on the firm. Unless the firm specifically hires from the 3L class for it's incoming associates (like mine), your best bet is to start sending letters and contacting firms in January of your third year. Firms will have set annual budgets and know where the gaps for 3Ls are at that time. The next wave for 3Ls happens right around now, after graduation during bar season.

lawfirmrecruiter
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Re: Law firm recruiter answering questions for a bit

Postby lawfirmrecruiter » Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:48 pm

japes wrote:
japes wrote:
Cover letters are always tricky and can actually cause more troubles for a candidate. Keep it short and concise. Tell me you want to be in X city and come to my firm because of 1-2 reasons. Surely there are two sentences you can come up with to cover that. Any longer and it sounds like you are justifying your application.


Care to elaborate on this a little more? What are the things you like to see / don't want to see in a cover letter? As a 0L prepping cover letters for the 1L job search, any advice? I'm interested in PI but currently working a non-PI civil litigation lawjob.


bump, I think this got lost in the GPA debate.


If you are interested in PI, tailor your letter to address the specific public interest group you are sending the letter to. While mass mailings are easier, it is really refreshing to receive a letter that actually reads like it was sent to me and shows an interest in my organization/city. You don't need to drone on and on, but you should use your cover letter to introduce yourself and show that you are actually applying for a specific role and will fill a specific need.

AP-375
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Re: Law firm recruiter answering questions for a bit

Postby AP-375 » Tue Jun 28, 2011 6:11 pm

lawfirmrecruiter wrote: While mass mailings are easier, it is really refreshing to receive a letter that actually reads like it was sent to me and shows an interest in my organization/city. You don't need to drone on and on, but you should use your cover letter to introduce yourself and show that you are actually applying for a specific role and will fill a specific need.


So just to clarify, to optimize chances, do you think all cover letters should be tailored to each firm? Makes sense...

lawfirmrecruiter
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Re: Law firm recruiter answering questions for a bit

Postby lawfirmrecruiter » Tue Jun 28, 2011 6:15 pm

AP-375 wrote:
lawfirmrecruiter wrote: While mass mailings are easier, it is really refreshing to receive a letter that actually reads like it was sent to me and shows an interest in my organization/city. You don't need to drone on and on, but you should use your cover letter to introduce yourself and show that you are actually applying for a specific role and will fill a specific need.


So just to clarify, to optimize chances, do you think all cover letters should be tailored to each firm? Makes sense...


In a perfect world, yes. But I understand that can be difficult if you are sending out hundreds of letters. Your top choices should DEFINITELY be personalized though. Not to mention, if you make a mistake on the mail merge when generating a large number of bulk letters and include the wrong firm name in the body of the letter you will very quickly land in the "no" pile . . .

Anonymous User
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Re: Law firm recruiter answering questions for a bit

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jun 28, 2011 6:16 pm

do you view part-time and full-time students differently? if so, how?

Anonymous User
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Re: Law firm recruiter answering questions for a bit

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jun 28, 2011 6:17 pm

As far as the diversity boost goes, what if an applicant is half-URM, half-white, half-black/half-white, half-asian/half-white, but looks white? How does that affect your decision?




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