Law firm recruiter answering questions for a bit

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Anonymous User
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Re: Law firm recruiter answering questions for a bit

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Oct 03, 2011 11:41 pm

Would it be inappropriate to e-mail my cover letter/resume/transcript directly to the hiring partner instead of to the recruiting contact?

Also, how should one go about contacting law school alumni at firms? Should I do so before mailing my materials? If I have applied without first reaching out to alumni, should I still contact them to inform them of my application? What's the best way to approach this?

Thanks so much in advance for your input.

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Re: Law firm recruiter answering questions for a bit

Postby lawfirmrecruiter » Tue Oct 04, 2011 10:15 am

Anonymous User wrote:really dumb q:

i have an offer ive accepted. at my cb, i spoke only with attorneys from the firm's small-but-crown jewel flagship practice, all of whom really sold me on the practice. after receiving the offer, i got an email from one of the partners congratulating me and saying she enjoyed speaking with me. that was ~3 weeks ago.

any problem in shooting her an email saying (less colloquially) "I accepted, great time talking to you, looking forward to the summer"? I loved my cb, that's all...


I see no problem with this at all. Congrats on the offer!

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Re: Law firm recruiter answering questions for a bit

Postby lawfirmrecruiter » Tue Oct 04, 2011 10:21 am

Anonymous User wrote:Would it be inappropriate to e-mail my cover letter/resume/transcript directly to the hiring partner instead of to the recruiting contact?

Also, how should one go about contacting law school alumni at firms? Should I do so before mailing my materials? If I have applied without first reaching out to alumni, should I still contact them to inform them of my application? What's the best way to approach this?

Thanks so much in advance for your input.


It's not inappropriate, just saves a step. In my experience, the hiring partner will usually flip these to recruiting to process and handle so it makes it a bit easier. Also, if the HP is really busy, s/he might forget to send it and your information might end up sitting in their inbox for a few days/weeks.

As for reaching out to alumni, there really is no "better" time. If you have already applied, you can contact them and let them know you have sent your materials and would appreciate a few minutes of their time to learn more about their practice/firm/etc. This can be a great way to help you get your foot in the door to start meeting people.

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Re: Law firm recruiter answering questions for a bit

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Oct 07, 2011 3:42 pm

Here is a scenario: Offer from a firm I really like but in a city that I cannot be in after graduation (due to spouse's situation). I have another offer from a government position in a city that is my first choice but is (1) unpaid, and (2) probably will not result in a permanent offer due to budget constraints/the state of the economy. Which to go for?

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Re: Law firm recruiter answering questions for a bit

Postby lawfirmrecruiter » Fri Oct 07, 2011 5:37 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Here is a scenario: Offer from a firm I really like but in a city that I cannot be in after graduation (due to spouse's situation). I have another offer from a government position in a city that is my first choice but is (1) unpaid, and (2) probably will not result in a permanent offer due to budget constraints/the state of the economy. Which to go for?


Why did you interview for a position in a city you cannot be in after graduation?? If you take that spot, you are potentially taking a job opportunity away from someone else that really does want to be in that city and at that firm. While you will get experience and $$ there, you are wasting the firm's money and time by letting them recruit you when you don't have any real possibility of being there.

My suggestion would be to summer in a place you actually want to be in and try to network as much as possible while you are there.

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Re: Law firm recruiter answering questions for a bit

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Oct 07, 2011 6:10 pm

lawfirmrecruiter wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Here is a scenario: Offer from a firm I really like but in a city that I cannot be in after graduation (due to spouse's situation). I have another offer from a government position in a city that is my first choice but is (1) unpaid, and (2) probably will not result in a permanent offer due to budget constraints/the state of the economy. Which to go for?


Why did you interview for a position in a city you cannot be in after graduation?? If you take that spot, you are potentially taking a job opportunity away from someone else that really does want to be in that city and at that firm. While you will get experience and $$ there, you are wasting the firm's money and time by letting them recruit you when you don't have any real possibility of being there.

My suggestion would be to summer in a place you actually want to be in and try to network as much as possible while you are there.

LOL. LFR, I HUGELY appreciate everything you do here, but this reply shows the limitations of your advice, so to speak: your answer was purely from the POV of a law firm, and not for OP's benefit. Of course I sympathize. SAs cost of lot of money and effort, and the thought that such an investment is wasted on a candidate that never intended to stay must be the nightmare scenario for recruiters and law firms. But none of that speaks to what is best for OP (and why the heck is OP asking this question in this thread anyway???)

I'd take the SA in the other city and use the offer resulting from that to get an offer as a 3L next year...

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Re: Law firm recruiter answering questions for a bit

Postby lawfirmrecruiter » Fri Oct 07, 2011 6:17 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
lawfirmrecruiter wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Here is a scenario: Offer from a firm I really like but in a city that I cannot be in after graduation (due to spouse's situation). I have another offer from a government position in a city that is my first choice but is (1) unpaid, and (2) probably will not result in a permanent offer due to budget constraints/the state of the economy. Which to go for?


Why did you interview for a position in a city you cannot be in after graduation?? If you take that spot, you are potentially taking a job opportunity away from someone else that really does want to be in that city and at that firm. While you will get experience and $$ there, you are wasting the firm's money and time by letting them recruit you when you don't have any real possibility of being there.

My suggestion would be to summer in a place you actually want to be in and try to network as much as possible while you are there.

LOL. LFR, I HUGELY appreciate everything you do here, but this reply shows the limitations of your advice, so to speak: your answer was purely from the POV of a law firm, and not for OP's benefit. Of course I sympathize. SAs cost of lot of money and effort, and the thought that such an investment is wasted on a candidate that never intended to stay must be the nightmare scenario for recruiters and law firms. But none of that speaks to what is best for OP (and why the heck is OP asking this question in this thread anyway???)

I'd take the SA in the other city and use the offer resulting from that to get an offer as a 3L next year...


Well, of course I am giving advice from the law firm POV! That's what they pay me to do!

Seriously, though. Even from the student perspective, summering in a city where you have no desire to be in really does you no good from the student point of view either. If you do get a job offer, you will have to turn it down and then explain during 3L OCI why you did not end up with the firm you summered with OR you have to end up fighting with your spouse about staying in a city they cannot be in. That just doesn't make sense to me.

Another angle on this question would be to take a step back and ask yourself about the difference between the two options aside from location. Do you want to do government work or work in a firm? Two very different environments and work options. Answer that question and go from there.

See? I can be objective. Sometimes.

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Re: Law firm recruiter answering questions for a bit

Postby enibs » Fri Oct 07, 2011 6:41 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
lawfirmrecruiter wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Here is a scenario: Offer from a firm I really like but in a city that I cannot be in after graduation (due to spouse's situation). I have another offer from a government position in a city that is my first choice but is (1) unpaid, and (2) probably will not result in a permanent offer due to budget constraints/the state of the economy. Which to go for?


Why did you interview for a position in a city you cannot be in after graduation?? If you take that spot, you are potentially taking a job opportunity away from someone else that really does want to be in that city and at that firm. While you will get experience and $$ there, you are wasting the firm's money and time by letting them recruit you when you don't have any real possibility of being there.

My suggestion would be to summer in a place you actually want to be in and try to network as much as possible while you are there.

LOL. LFR, I HUGELY appreciate everything you do here, but this reply shows the limitations of your advice, so to speak: your answer was purely from the POV of a law firm, and not for OP's benefit. Of course I sympathize. SAs cost of lot of money and effort, and the thought that such an investment is wasted on a candidate that never intended to stay must be the nightmare scenario for recruiters and law firms. But none of that speaks to what is best for OP (and why the heck is OP asking this question in this thread anyway???)

I'd take the SA in the other city and use the offer resulting from that to get an offer as a 3L next year...


From the POV of being able to look at yourself in the mirror, how could you possibly take an SA position with a firm that you know for certain you will not return to after graduation? It's the functional equivalent of stealing.

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Re: Law firm recruiter answering questions for a bit

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Oct 07, 2011 7:01 pm

lawfirmrecruiter wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Here is a scenario: Offer from a firm I really like but in a city that I cannot be in after graduation (due to spouse's situation). I have another offer from a government position in a city that is my first choice but is (1) unpaid, and (2) probably will not result in a permanent offer due to budget constraints/the state of the economy. Which to go for?


Why did you interview for a position in a city you cannot be in after graduation?? If you take that spot, you are potentially taking a job opportunity away from someone else that really does want to be in that city and at that firm. While you will get experience and $$ there, you are wasting the firm's money and time by letting them recruit you when you don't have any real possibility of being there.

My suggestion would be to summer in a place you actually want to be in and try to network as much as possible while you are there.


My question is sort of related to what the other poster asked. I currently have two offers that I plan on accepting (one for first half, the other second half). Unfortunately, these two firms are in different cities. By accepting both, would that send a bad signal to both firms that I'm not committed to their city? I can see myself long-term in either city (the two are geographically pretty close but also have a pretty intense rivalry).

Thanks for your help!

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Re: Law firm recruiter answering questions for a bit

Postby wakahaka » Fri Oct 07, 2011 8:47 pm

enibs wrote:From the POV of being able to look at yourself in the mirror, how could you possibly take an SA position with a firm that you know for certain you will not return to after graduation? It's the functional equivalent of stealing.


No, it's not. This is absurd.

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Re: Law firm recruiter answering questions for a bit

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Oct 07, 2011 10:45 pm

wakahaka wrote:
enibs wrote:From the POV of being able to look at yourself in the mirror, how could you possibly take an SA position with a firm that you know for certain you will not return to after graduation? It's the functional equivalent of stealing.


No, it's not. This is absurd.

Firms who take more summers knowing they will no-offer at least one person are functionally stealing that person's career, so I guess it evens out.

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Re: Law firm recruiter answering questions for a bit

Postby luthersloan » Fri Oct 07, 2011 10:54 pm

Nah, it is the functional equivalent of destroying their career, and they knew or should have known the risks.

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Re: Law firm recruiter answering questions for a bit

Postby enibs » Fri Oct 07, 2011 11:17 pm

wakahaka wrote:
enibs wrote:From the POV of being able to look at yourself in the mirror, how could you possibly take an SA position with a firm that you know for certain you will not return to after graduation? It's the functional equivalent of stealing.


No, it's not. This is absurd.


Let me guess. I'll bet you also think it's fine to have firms fly you out for interviews and put you up at a hotel in a city you wanted to visit, even though you have absolutely no intention of accepting an offer in that city.

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Re: Law firm recruiter answering questions for a bit

Postby slider » Fri Oct 07, 2011 11:37 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Firms who take more summers knowing they will no-offer at least one person are functionally stealing that person's career, so I guess it evens out.


This.

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Re: Law firm recruiter answering questions for a bit

Postby enibs » Fri Oct 07, 2011 11:47 pm

slider wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Firms who take more summers knowing they will no-offer at least one person are functionally stealing that person's career, so I guess it evens out.


This.


So law firms are evil and therefore it's okay to steal from them. At least it's a coherent ideology. Either that or a self-serving rationalization.

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Re: Law firm recruiter answering questions for a bit

Postby japes » Fri Oct 07, 2011 11:53 pm

I'm a 1L headed to a career fair in a few weeks. Obviously I can't interview, and I can't drop my resume, but is there anything advice you can offer me other than to network and talk to as many people as possible?

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Re: Law firm recruiter answering questions for a bit

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Oct 08, 2011 12:53 am

enibs wrote:
From the POV of being able to look at yourself in the mirror, how could you possibly take an SA position with a firm that you know for certain you will not return to after graduation? It's the functional equivalent of stealing.


Are you serious? Not the anon you quoted but I took a job in a city that I have no intention of staying in permanently because it was the only job I could get. I tried getting jobs in my home market, but I also interviewed in other markets because I didn't want to end up unemployed.

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Re: Law firm recruiter answering questions for a bit

Postby wakahaka » Sat Oct 08, 2011 1:27 am

enibs wrote:
wakahaka wrote:
enibs wrote:From the POV of being able to look at yourself in the mirror, how could you possibly take an SA position with a firm that you know for certain you will not return to after graduation? It's the functional equivalent of stealing.


No, it's not. This is absurd.


Let me guess. I'll bet you also think it's fine to have firms fly you out for interviews and put you up at a hotel in a city you wanted to visit, even though you have absolutely no intention of accepting an offer in that city.


No, you actually have no idea what I think, but I'll give you some insight. I'm not advocating that type of conduct, nor am I advocating the conduct of the person who asked the original question; I'm simply being a realist. But while we're making snap judgments, I'll say that it must be nice living in your world, in which you've lived such a charmed life that you think working for a law firm for a summer without the intention to work there again after graduation is tantamount to stealing. I wonder what you would say if someone ever actually stole something from you.

You choose to work for a law firm for a summer, and they choose to pay you for that summer's work. You're not promising them anything, and they're not promising you anything. You might drop them, and they might drop you. That's how the real world works. People work places every day where their employers may have big plans for them, and the employees may have other ideas - are they stealing too? Is every day spent there a theft? Get over yourself dude.

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Re: Law firm recruiter answering questions for a bit

Postby TheFriendlyBarber » Sat Oct 08, 2011 4:38 am

wakahaka wrote:No, you actually have no idea what I think, but I'll give you some insight. I'm not advocating that type of conduct, nor am I advocating the conduct of the person who asked the original question; I'm simply being a realist. But while we're making snap judgments, I'll say that it must be nice living in your world, in which you've lived such a charmed life that you think working for a law firm for a summer without the intention to work there again after graduation is tantamount to stealing. I wonder what you would say if someone ever actually stole something from you.

You choose to work for a law firm for a summer, and they choose to pay you for that summer's work. You're not promising them anything, and they're not promising you anything. You might drop them, and they might drop you. That's how the real world works. People work places every day where their employers may have big plans for them, and the employees may have other ideas - are they stealing too? Is every day spent there a theft? Get over yourself dude.


Exactly right.

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Re: Law firm recruiter answering questions for a bit

Postby enibs » Sat Oct 08, 2011 12:53 pm

TheFriendlyBarber wrote:
wakahaka wrote:No, you actually have no idea what I think, but I'll give you some insight. I'm not advocating that type of conduct, nor am I advocating the conduct of the person who asked the original question; I'm simply being a realist. But while we're making snap judgments, I'll say that it must be nice living in your world, in which you've lived such a charmed life that you think working for a law firm for a summer without the intention to work there again after graduation is tantamount to stealing. I wonder what you would say if someone ever actually stole something from you.

You choose to work for a law firm for a summer, and they choose to pay you for that summer's work. You're not promising them anything, and they're not promising you anything. You might drop them, and they might drop you. That's how the real world works. People work places every day where their employers may have big plans for them, and the employees may have other ideas - are they stealing too? Is every day spent there a theft? Get over yourself dude.


Exactly right.


If a law firm were to hire you for their summer program knowing that there was no chance they would give you an offer at the end of the summer, and didn't say anything to you about it until you got to the end of the summer and found yourself with no offer, I expect you would consider that to be outrageous and heinous behavior. I certainly would. The same is true in reverse.

Do you honestly think that law firms pay their summer associates over $3,000 per week, not to mention the money they spend on entertaining summer associates with lavish meals, outings and other social events, because they think the work they get from summer associates is worth that money? Of course not. In fact, most clients won't pay for summer associate time and most firms don't even try to bill it. Law firms spend the money on summer associates because the summer program is a mechanism for recruiting full-time associates. This is in no way, shape or form analagous to working at a job where you provide value commensurate with your salary and benefits, and then decide after some period of time to move on to another job.

Sure, a summer associate is not obligated to accept an offer to return as a full-time associate, just as the firm is not obligated to give the summer associate an offer to return (though the offer rates at most major firms are generally at or near 100%). But there is an understanding that summer associates will at least consider an offer in good faith. Obviously you know that if you told the firm that there was no chance you would accept an offer to return as a full-time associate, they would never hire you as a summer associate. When you take their money and perks without telling them that, you're taking the money and perks under false pretenses. To me, that's the functional equivalent of stealing.

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Re: Law firm recruiter answering questions for a bit

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Oct 09, 2011 1:36 pm

lawfirmrecruiter wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Any suggestions for a clerk at a federal court of appeals on landing a Biglaw job?


Talk to your judge and see if there are any networking opportunities s/he can help you with. Recommendations and introductions always go a long way. Also, begin doing some research about firms that have a history of hiring clerks. It is a little difficult but target a market you want to be in and start reviewing the resumes of the attorneys on their sites to find out who the clerks are.



Just to clarify on this. I'm not the anon poster, but am interested in working for a fed judge after 1L, is OP a clerk post graduation?

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Re: Law firm recruiter answering questions for a bit

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Oct 09, 2011 2:05 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
lawfirmrecruiter wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Any suggestions for a clerk at a federal court of appeals on landing a Biglaw job?


Talk to your judge and see if there are any networking opportunities s/he can help you with. Recommendations and introductions always go a long way. Also, begin doing some research about firms that have a history of hiring clerks. It is a little difficult but target a market you want to be in and start reviewing the resumes of the attorneys on their sites to find out who the clerks are.



Just to clarify on this. I'm not the anon poster, but am interested in working for a fed judge after 1L, is OP a clerk post graduation?

Clerking is post 3L for a year+, interning is working for a judge for the summer.

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Re: Law firm recruiter answering questions for a bit

Postby Sherwood2014 » Sun Oct 09, 2011 2:17 pm

There are so many gloom and dome threads on TLS that even I (an internal optimist 1L attending an Ivy T-10 school) am beginning to develop an anxiety. How bad is it out there? Perhaps a better question, how competitive does one need to be to escape doc review or something equally unpleasant? Where do you draw the line before clicking delete . . .T-14, top 15%, LR.

I assume that as long as you are employed. . . there is still hope!

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Re: Law firm recruiter answering questions for a bit

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Oct 09, 2011 2:34 pm

edit
Last edited by Anonymous User on Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Law firm recruiter answering questions for a bit

Postby lawfirmrecruiter » Mon Oct 10, 2011 9:40 am

Sherwood2014 wrote:There are so many gloom and dome threads on TLS that even I (an internal optimist 1L attending an Ivy T-10 school) am beginning to develop an anxiety. How bad is it out there? Perhaps a better question, how competitive does one need to be to escape doc review or something equally unpleasant? Where do you draw the line before clicking delete . . .T-14, top 15%, LR.

I assume that as long as you are employed. . . there is still hope!


Well, the sky is not exactly falling but hiring is definitely not the way it was back in "the boom time." All firms still continue struggle with clients pushing back on paying for first year work which makes it difficult to justify hiring a large class of entry level associates with enormous salaries. Speaking only for the mid-sized firms in a smaller market, hiring has become much more focused and strategic. The good news is, though, we are all still hiring and will continue to do so. Students need to look longer term about their careers and really focus on a plan for how to get there. It may include stepping stone firms to get experience or you may go straight into your dream job. The path is just not quite as guaranteed anymore - school/good grades/OCI/summer parties/BigLaw $$.

My best advice for a 1L is to first and foremost make good grades. Then network with as many lawyers you can in markets you have connections.




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