Law firm recruiter answering questions for a bit Forum

[Anonymous User]

I'm a student at Cornell.

This might be a silly question, but I've noticed that in many V15 firms the alumni ratio between Harvard/Columbia/NYU are pretty similar but the alumni ratio between those top schools to the lower T14 schools is roughly 4:1.

Is this because firms just look more favorably upon students from top schools? Or is it that students from top schools are generally more intelligible during interviews?

I ask because I'm wondering whether if I should transfer or not.

[koalatriste]

I'm a student at Cornell.

This might be a silly question, but I've noticed that in many V15 firms the alumni ratio between Harvard/Columbia/NYU are pretty similar but the alumni ratio between those top schools to the lower T14 schools is roughly 4:1.

Is this because firms just look more favorably upon students from top schools? Or is it that students from top schools are generally more intelligible during interviews?

I ask because I'm wondering whether if I should transfer or not.

I transferred from Cornell to CN. Your post raises so many issues, but I would say that there is really a negligible or absolutely no difference between the manner in which firms would look at a Cornell to HYSCCN transfer (at HYSCCN OCI) and the way that they would look at a Cornell student (at Cornell OCI). With that being said, if you have the grades to transfer from Cornell to HYSCCN, you have the grades to get the firm of your choice, so the point is really moot.

Also, you need to be studying instead of wasting your time on law firm websites. You currently have 0 of your 10 grades. Come back when you have all 10 back in June and THEN you can start thinking about law firms and transferring.

I know it's tempting to think about transferring, though, because we all know Ithaca is a terrible place. The weather is exponentially worse during second semester. Good luck.

[lawfirmrecruiter]

In July I asked how hiring was going and your response was encouraging. Now that four months have passed, is the outlook still the same?

Yes, especially on the lateral side. So far this year, we have hired 20 laterals. It is still rough for students, but firms are still hiring entry levels and starting to discuss increasing class sizes a bit. Moving our student recruiting to 3L hiring let us include more in the program this year and I expect the same for next. The market is trending upward but we are no where near pre-2008 numbers, nor do I expect firms to ever get there again (IMHO).

Do you think that firms may or should move to more 3L recruiting, since it is more difficult to predict needs 25 months out than it is at 13 months out? I realize that some of the benefits of hiring someone closer to their actual start date will be offset by not having ever worked around the individual.[/quote]

Yes. This is why we moved exclusively to 3L hiring this year. We were able to more accurately predict what we need. By building an apprentice program, we were able to work with students to get to know them and jump start their practical training.

[lawfirmrecruiter]

How do you feel 3L OCI is going to go this coming fall?

Since that is all we do, really strong. For other firms, I believe there will be an uptick also.

[Anonymous User]

How do you feel 3L OCI is going to go this coming fall?

Since that is all we do, really strong. For other firms, I believe there will be an uptick also.

So I take it 1L Summer SA slots are taking a major hit. Is this also true for T-6 and MVP 1L students seeking a paid Summer SA posiiton?

[Anonymous User]

If one already has an SA position w/ a V30 firm, how important is it to get on the editorial board of Law Review (assuming no desire for clerkship or academia)?
Will it ever be a factor in a firm no-offering someone an offer after SA?
Will it affect lateral-transfers?

[Renne Walker]

Below is someone’s personal experience regarding applying for a job (or SA). To me, the emphasis on brainteasers came as a surprise. Do you have a comment you could share, regarding what I pasted below, as either being typical (or non-typical). Thanks.

Every job I applied for required candidates to submit their SAT scores. Also GRE/GMAT if taken. Interview brain teasers are absolutely a huge piece of the puzzle. Your resume will only get you in the door and there for an interview. Usually the way it works is there's a first round interview on campus. Typically 30-60 minutes. Half of it standard interview stuff, the other half is brain teasers. They could be abstract (some examples):

"Two players are playing tennis, and it's 40 all. Player A has lost the last server. Player A has a 2/3 chance of winning a serve if he lost the last server, but only a 1/2 chance of winning a serve if he won the last serve. What's the chance that player A wins the game"
"Estimate the gross tonnage of a 747"
"A frog is standing on top of the a set of N stairs. Every step he can either jump down 1 or 2 stairs. How many possible paths can he take"

The point of brain teasers is to be just hard/complex enough that the candidate doesn't know it off the top of his head, but complex enough that he can reason through it in 5-20 minutes. The point isn't to get the answer right, but to see how the candidate reasons through the problem. Hence why its done orally instead of as a written exam.

After the first round, there's usually a "super-day." Either a Friday or Saturday where candidates are flown into the corporate office. They'll spend the day going from interview to interview of pretty much nothing but brainteasers. They'll have 6 to 18 interview of 30-60 minutes. At many firms some candidates are sent home halfway through the day, so as not to waste any more time.

[Anonymous User]

I'm a student at Cornell.

This might be a silly question, but I've noticed that in many V15 firms the alumni ratio between Harvard/Columbia/NYU are pretty similar but the alumni ratio between those top schools to the lower T14 schools is roughly 4:1.

Is this because firms just look more favorably upon students from top schools? Or is it that students from top schools are generally more intelligible during interviews?

I ask because I'm wondering whether if I should transfer or not.

I transferred from Cornell to CN. Your post raises so many issues, but I would say that there is really a negligible or absolutely no difference between the manner in which firms would look at a Cornell to HYSCCN transfer (at HYSCCN OCI) and the way that they would look at a Cornell student (at Cornell OCI). With that being said, if you have the grades to transfer from Cornell to HYSCCN, you have the grades to get the firm of your choice, so the point is really moot.

Also, you need to be studying instead of wasting your time on law firm websites. You currently have 0 of your 10 grades. Come back when you have all 10 back in June and THEN you can start thinking about law firms and transferring.

I know it's tempting to think about transferring, though, because we all know Ithaca is a terrible place. The weather is exponentially worse during second semester. Good luck.

Thanks for the reply. It would be nice to hear something from OP though.

[California Babe]

Below is someone’s personal experience regarding applying for a job (or SA). To me, the emphasis on brainteasers came as a surprise. Do you have a comment you could share, regarding what I pasted below, as either being typical (or non-typical). Thanks.

Every job I applied for required candidates to submit their SAT scores. Also GRE/GMAT if taken. Interview brain teasers are absolutely a huge piece of the puzzle. Your resume will only get you in the door and there for an interview. Usually the way it works is there's a first round interview on campus. Typically 30-60 minutes. Half of it standard interview stuff, the other half is brain teasers. They could be abstract (some examples):

"Two players are playing tennis, and it's 40 all. Player A has lost the last server. Player A has a 2/3 chance of winning a serve if he lost the last server, but only a 1/2 chance of winning a serve if he won the last serve. What's the chance that player A wins the game"
"Estimate the gross tonnage of a 747"
"A frog is standing on top of the a set of N stairs. Every step he can either jump down 1 or 2 stairs. How many possible paths can he take"

The point of brain teasers is to be just hard/complex enough that the candidate doesn't know it off the top of his head, but complex enough that he can reason through it in 5-20 minutes. The point isn't to get the answer right, but to see how the candidate reasons through the problem. Hence why its done orally instead of as a written exam.

After the first round, there's usually a "super-day." Either a Friday or Saturday where candidates are flown into the corporate office. They'll spend the day going from interview to interview of pretty much nothing but brainteasers. They'll have 6 to 18 interview of 30-60 minutes. At many firms some candidates are sent home halfway through the day, so as not to waste any more time.

This is not at all typical of a legal interview. Other industries are known for "brain teaser" type interviews (How many manholes are there in Manhattan?), but this is not at all what anyone should expect when interviewing for a legal job.

[lawfirmrecruiter]

How do you feel 3L OCI is going to go this coming fall?

Since that is all we do, really strong. For other firms, I believe there will be an uptick also.

So I take it 1L Summer SA slots are taking a major hit. Is this also true for T-6 and MVP 1L students seeking a paid Summer SA posiiton?

1L positions are hard to find but they do exist. T-6 MVP will have a better shot but there just aren't many positions for 1Ls out there.

[Anonymous User]

Hi Law firm recruiter:

I have a question about lateraling:

In general, do you think it would be easier for an individual to lateral into a major market from a prestigious government honors program where they are working in a niche department/agency which the targeted firm doesn't practice (i.e. DOJ Honors Civil Rights Office) OR from a solid firm (NLJ-250) in a small flyover market where they can get relevant work experience?

(Those are my two options right now. Ideally, I would like to work at a mid-level/big law firm in a big city right out of law school, but that's not looking like it's going to happen)

Thanks!

[Anonymous User]

So, reneging in the South...You have an offer for a firm in a market that you don't particularly want to be in, but wouldn't mind. The firm only gives 25% of summer clerks offers and only gives a week to decide on the offer. You accept it. Two weeks after you accept, a firm with a near 100% offer rate in you #1 market gives you an offer. LawFirmRecruiter, what do you do; what is your logic for those actions and what are the repercussions that need to be worried about.

I ask because the thoughts on reneging seem to be in the two extremes. The camp that says never, ever do it, and the camp that says the firm wouldn't think twice about laying you off so you have to look out for yourself. My conscious typically sides with the former, but the 25% offer rate makes me feel like only an idiot would ignore the logical choice of reneging.

Thanks in advance.

[koalatriste]

So, reneging in the South...You have an offer for a firm in a market that you don't particularly want to be in, but wouldn't mind. The firm only gives 25% of summer clerks offers and only gives a week to decide on the offer. You accept it. Two weeks after you accept, a firm with a near 100% offer rate in you #1 market gives you an offer. LawFirmRecruiter, what do you do; what is your logic for those actions and what are the repercussions that need to be worried about.

I ask because the thoughts on reneging seem to be in the two extremes. The camp that says never, ever do it, and the camp that says the firm wouldn't think twice about laying you off so you have to look out for yourself. My conscious typically sides with the former, but the 25% offer rate makes me feel like only an idiot would ignore the logical choice of reneging.

Thanks in advance.

They are planning on screwing you over. Take the 100% offer rate.

[kx121]

After reading this article: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/20/busin ... wanted=all it seems that firms hiring nowadays want graduates with experience. Do firms value part time graduates with experience over full time graduates?

[wiseowl]

Below is someone’s personal experience regarding applying for a job (or SA). To me, the emphasis on brainteasers came as a surprise. Do you have a comment you could share, regarding what I pasted below, as either being typical (or non-typical). Thanks.

Every job I applied for required candidates to submit their SAT scores. Also GRE/GMAT if taken. Interview brain teasers are absolutely a huge piece of the puzzle. Your resume will only get you in the door and there for an interview. Usually the way it works is there's a first round interview on campus. Typically 30-60 minutes. Half of it standard interview stuff, the other half is brain teasers. They could be abstract (some examples):

"Two players are playing tennis, and it's 40 all. Player A has lost the last server. Player A has a 2/3 chance of winning a serve if he lost the last server, but only a 1/2 chance of winning a serve if he won the last serve. What's the chance that player A wins the game"
"Estimate the gross tonnage of a 747"
"A frog is standing on top of the a set of N stairs. Every step he can either jump down 1 or 2 stairs. How many possible paths can he take"

The point of brain teasers is to be just hard/complex enough that the candidate doesn't know it off the top of his head, but complex enough that he can reason through it in 5-20 minutes. The point isn't to get the answer right, but to see how the candidate reasons through the problem. Hence why its done orally instead of as a written exam.

After the first round, there's usually a "super-day." Either a Friday or Saturday where candidates are flown into the corporate office. They'll spend the day going from interview to interview of pretty much nothing but brainteasers. They'll have 6 to 18 interview of 30-60 minutes. At many firms some candidates are sent home halfway through the day, so as not to waste any more time.

This sounds like a consulting interview. It does not sound at all like a law firm interview. If it was a law firm interview, run. Far away.

[bradleydee16]

How favorably is prior military service viewed at your firm? It's probably not as favorable as business experience?

[JCougar]

After reading this article: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/20/busin ... wanted=all it seems that firms hiring nowadays want graduates with experience. Do firms value part time graduates with experience over full time graduates?

Wow...that's an absolutely excellent article.

Did someone already start a thread on it in here? It's four days old, so I'm assuming it's been posted somewhere.

It sums up perfectly the problems and futility of the system as it exists today.

[quakeroats]

After reading this article: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/20/busin ... wanted=all it seems that firms hiring nowadays want graduates with experience. Do firms value part time graduates with experience over full time graduates?

Wow...that's an absolutely excellent article.

Did someone already start a thread on it in here? It's four days old, so I'm assuming it's been posted somewhere.

It sums up perfectly the problems and futility of the system as it exists today.

The law professors have been on this for days:

http://balkin.blogspot.com/2011/11/davi ... hools.html
http://balkin.blogspot.com/2011/11/davi ... te-on.html

[Anonymous User]

I have a question about transferring offices. I accepted a summer offer for a firm I'm Houston. They have an office in Dallas, but I did not get an offer from that office (in fact, I didn't even receive a callback). I would much rather be in Dallas because that is where I am from. Is it permissible to ask if I could do my summer in Dallas instead of Houston? If not, then would it be allowed if I got an offer, or would an offer really be just for that office? Any advice is greatly appreciated.

[TooOld4This]

I have a question about transferring offices. I accepted a summer offer for a firm I'm Houston. They have an office in Dallas, but I did not get an offer from that office (in fact, I didn't even receive a callback). I would much rather be in Dallas because that is where I am from. Is it permissible to ask if I could do my summer in Dallas instead of Houston? If not, then would it be allowed if I got an offer, or would an offer really be just for that office? Any advice is greatly appreciated.

Do not ask if you can summer in Dallas. Dallas did not want you. Telling Houston that you do not want them is not a career enhancing move. It's a good way to wind up with no permanent offer.

Likewise, do not give any indication over the summer than you aren't interested in accepting an offer. Texas firms especially tend to have a decent number of people that they no offer (split summers makes lower offer rates more common).

If you can be subtle about it, and this is a big if, you might be able to discretely inquire about how often people transfer between offices. It may be common. It may be the rare exception. In either case, don't start ringing official channels until after you have an offer for employment.

[lawfirmrecruiter]

Below is someone’s personal experience regarding applying for a job (or SA). To me, the emphasis on brainteasers came as a surprise. Do you have a comment you could share, regarding what I pasted below, as either being typical (or non-typical). Thanks.

Every job I applied for required candidates to submit their SAT scores. Also GRE/GMAT if taken. Interview brain teasers are absolutely a huge piece of the puzzle. Your resume will only get you in the door and there for an interview. Usually the way it works is there's a first round interview on campus. Typically 30-60 minutes. Half of it standard interview stuff, the other half is brain teasers. They could be abstract (some examples):

"Two players are playing tennis, and it's 40 all. Player A has lost the last server. Player A has a 2/3 chance of winning a serve if he lost the last server, but only a 1/2 chance of winning a serve if he won the last serve. What's the chance that player A wins the game"
"Estimate the gross tonnage of a 747"
"A frog is standing on top of the a set of N stairs. Every step he can either jump down 1 or 2 stairs. How many possible paths can he take"

The point of brain teasers is to be just hard/complex enough that the candidate doesn't know it off the top of his head, but complex enough that he can reason through it in 5-20 minutes. The point isn't to get the answer right, but to see how the candidate reasons through the problem. Hence why its done orally instead of as a written exam.

After the first round, there's usually a "super-day." Either a Friday or Saturday where candidates are flown into the corporate office. They'll spend the day going from interview to interview of pretty much nothing but brainteasers. They'll have 6 to 18 interview of 30-60 minutes. At many firms some candidates are sent home halfway through the day, so as not to waste any more time.

This sounds like a consulting interview. It does not sound at all like a law firm interview. If it was a law firm interview, run. Far away.

Agreed. I have never heard of a law firm interview like this.

[lawfirmrecruiter]

Hi Law firm recruiter:

I have a question about lateraling:

In general, do you think it would be easier for an individual to lateral into a major market from a prestigious government honors program where they are working in a niche department/agency which the targeted firm doesn't practice (i.e. DOJ Honors Civil Rights Office) OR from a solid firm (NLJ-250) in a small flyover market where they can get relevant work experience?

(Those are my two options right now. Ideally, I would like to work at a mid-level/big law firm in a big city right out of law school, but that's not looking like it's going to happen)

Thanks!

Associate Lateral hiring depends 90% on direct experience and qualifications. When I am looking for a lateral I need someone that will fill a specific need and does not have to be trained. If you want to lateral to another firm go for the direct experience that you can build on.

[lawfirmrecruiter]

So, reneging in the South...You have an offer for a firm in a market that you don't particularly want to be in, but wouldn't mind. The firm only gives 25% of summer clerks offers and only gives a week to decide on the offer. You accept it. Two weeks after you accept, a firm with a near 100% offer rate in you #1 market gives you an offer. LawFirmRecruiter, what do you do; what is your logic for those actions and what are the repercussions that need to be worried about.

I ask because the thoughts on reneging seem to be in the two extremes. The camp that says never, ever do it, and the camp that says the firm wouldn't think twice about laying you off so you have to look out for yourself. My conscious typically sides with the former, but the 25% offer rate makes me feel like only an idiot would ignore the logical choice of reneging.

Thanks in advance.

Hate to say it, but if it is really in your#1 market and there is a 100% offer rate, go where you will be happiest and reneg on the first offer. Not to mention the other firm is not playing by the NALP rules by pressuring you to accept in one week and they should expect some fall off because of that. Frankly thats really not fairto students, IMHO. Just know that if you reneg, you will be burning a bridge forever with the other firm and possibly that market.

[lawfirmrecruiter]

How favorably is prior military service viewed at your firm? It's probably not as favorable as business experience?

It is viewed very favorably. Military experience teaches leadership, teamwork, etc. all very relevant to firm life.

[lawfirmrecruiter]

I have a question about transferring offices. I accepted a summer offer for a firm I'm Houston. They have an office in Dallas, but I did not get an offer from that office (in fact, I didn't even receive a callback). I would much rather be in Dallas because that is where I am from. Is it permissible to ask if I could do my summer in Dallas instead of Houston? If not, then would it be allowed if I got an offer, or would an offer really be just for that office? Any advice is greatly appreciated.

Do not ask if you can summer in Dallas. Dallas did not want you. Telling Houston that you do not want them is not a career enhancing move. It's a good way to wind up with no permanent offer.

Likewise, do not give any indication over the summer than you aren't interested in accepting an offer. Texas firms especially tend to have a decent number of people that they no offer (split summers makes lower offer rates more common).

If you can be subtle about it, and this is a big if, you might be able to discretely inquire about how often people transfer between offices. It may be common. It may be the rare exception. In either case, don't start ringing official channels until after you have an offer for employment.

I agree 100% with this response.