Where do contract / temp attorneys come from?

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vanwinkle
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Re: Where do contract / temp attorneys come from?

Postby vanwinkle » Fri Jul 22, 2011 1:03 pm

JCougar wrote:I know you mentioned not absolving the law schools, and I think it's important that consumers/students not be let entirely off the hook, but I think a lot of people on this forum and elsewhere in the profession (not talking about your post here) take the easy way out and blame the victim.

Well, my point was basically in line with yours, I think: There's plenty enough blame, and work to be done, for everyone involved.

luthersloan
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Re: Where do contract / temp attorneys come from?

Postby luthersloan » Fri Jul 22, 2011 1:11 pm

Okay, I'm talking turkey and you're talking theory. Fuck social welfare, and fuck the schools and legal faculty. Seriously. They want to win out at our expense, let them go to bat for themselves. Let's not make their case for them: it's like making excuses for an uncle that sexually abuses you.


I was not making excuses for them, I was saying that at the end of day they are no different from any other enocomic actor that tries to manipulate regulations to their advantage, and a good way to stop that is to not place the regulator power in an insitutation which they will always, because of their posistion, have influnce with. And also saying that the fact that schools have manipulated regulation to their advantage is not an excuse for lawyers and law students to do the same. I understand a lot of people feel like there were robbed. Certainly with debt that will be pushing 200K at graduation and no job lined up I feel that way sometimes. But my feelings are not a sound basis for policy making.

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Verity
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Re: Where do contract / temp attorneys come from?

Postby Verity » Fri Jul 22, 2011 1:18 pm

luthersloan wrote:
Verity wrote:Okay, I'm talking turkey and you're talking theory. Fuck social welfare, and fuck the schools and legal faculty. Seriously. They want to win out at our expense, let them go to bat for themselves. Let's not make their case for them: it's like making excuses for an uncle that sexually abuses you.


I was not making excuses for them, I was saying that at the end of day they are no different from any other enocomic actor that tries to manipulate regulations to their advantage, and a good way to stop that is to not place the regulator power in an insitutation which they will always, because of their posistion, have influnce with. And also saying that the fact that schools have manipulated regulation to their advantage is not an excuse for lawyers and law students to do the same. I understand a lot of people feel like there were robbed. Certainly with debt that will be pushing 200K at graduation and no job lined up I feel that way sometimes. But my feelings are not a sound basis for policy making.


Yeah, but I'm talking advocacy, not grand-scheme policy-making. We're not concerned with writing laws here, we're talking (at least I am) about what we can do to limit supply and make sure people know what they're getting into.

The ABA certainly can and should play a central role in that. They are our main authoritative body, and they should lead on simple things like this that almost every lawyer and law student would agree on (i.e., full disclosure and accurate descriptions of the market).

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Re: Where do contract / temp attorneys come from?

Postby luthersloan » Fri Jul 22, 2011 1:28 pm

Verity wrote:
luthersloan wrote:
Verity wrote:Okay, I'm talking turkey and you're talking theory. Fuck social welfare, and fuck the schools and legal faculty. Seriously. They want to win out at our expense, let them go to bat for themselves. Let's not make their case for them: it's like making excuses for an uncle that sexually abuses you.


I was not making excuses for them, I was saying that at the end of day they are no different from any other enocomic actor that tries to manipulate regulations to their advantage, and a good way to stop that is to not place the regulator power in an insitutation which they will always, because of their posistion, have influnce with. And also saying that the fact that schools have manipulated regulation to their advantage is not an excuse for lawyers and law students to do the same. I understand a lot of people feel like there were robbed. Certainly with debt that will be pushing 200K at graduation and no job lined up I feel that way sometimes. But my feelings are not a sound basis for policy making.


Yeah, but I'm talking advocacy, not grand-scheme policy-making. We're not concerned with writing laws here, we're talking (at least I am) about what we can do to limit supply and make sure people know what they're getting into.

The ABA certainly can and should play a central role in that. They are our main authoritative body, and they should lead on simple things like this that almost every lawyer and law student would agree on (i.e., full disclosure and accurate descriptions of the market).



And I was simply saying the ABA cannot really be counted on to do that in a sort of fair way, given its inherent susceptibility to regulatory capture. Honestly, the ABA seems on balance to be useless. The accredit basically all comers, but do so while imposing requirements that increase costs. Eliminating it and the accreditation requirement would almost certainly reduce costs. But if all you advocating for is greater disclosure, I (and I think pretty much everyone who ever read a TLS board) agree with you. Law schools certainly report, what little data they do report, in ways that seem designed to mislead. Though, it does not really seem like the greater awareness of this fact is doing all that much to control demand, too many people suffer from “special snowflake” syndrome.

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Verity
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Re: Where do contract / temp attorneys come from?

Postby Verity » Fri Jul 22, 2011 1:41 pm

luthersloan wrote:And I was simply saying the ABA cannot really be counted on to do that in a sort of fair way, given its inherent susceptibility to regulatory capture. Honestly, the ABA seems on balance to be useless. The accredit basically all comers, but do so while imposing requirements that increase costs. Eliminating it and the accreditation requirement would almost certainly reduce costs. But if all you advocating for is greater disclosure, I (and I think pretty much everyone who ever read a TLS board) agree with you. Law schools certainly report, what little data they do report, in ways that seem designed to mislead. Though, it does not really seem like the greater awareness of this fact is doing all that much to control demand, too many people suffer from “special snowflake” syndrome.


Wtf? The ABA is not part of the government. Goal 1 of its mission is to "Serve [its] members," and goal 2 is to "Improve our profession." What are you talking about?

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Re: Where do contract / temp attorneys come from?

Postby luthersloan » Fri Jul 22, 2011 1:52 pm

Verity wrote:
luthersloan wrote:And I was simply saying the ABA cannot really be counted on to do that in a sort of fair way, given its inherent susceptibility to regulatory capture. Honestly, the ABA seems on balance to be useless. The accredit basically all comers, but do so while imposing requirements that increase costs. Eliminating it and the accreditation requirement would almost certainly reduce costs. But if all you advocating for is greater disclosure, I (and I think pretty much everyone who ever read a TLS board) agree with you. Law schools certainly report, what little data they do report, in ways that seem designed to mislead. Though, it does not really seem like the greater awareness of this fact is doing all that much to control demand, too many people suffer from “special snowflake” syndrome.


Wtf? The ABA is not part of the government. Goal 1 of its mission is to "Serve [its] members," and goal 2 is to "Improve our profession." What are you talking about?



Did I ever say it was part of the government? It wields regulatory authority in the form the requirement that to sit for the bar one must be a graduate of a school it has accredited. I am unsure how I gave the impression it was an arm of the government, nor why that would even matter. The reality is it indirectly wields state power and seems to have used that power in a way that helps no one except law schools. When people ask the ABA to step up and “do something” I have always assumed that means impose reporting requirements on the schools it regulates. I was simply pointing out why that it is unlikely to be the case.

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Re: Where do contract / temp attorneys come from?

Postby Verity » Fri Jul 22, 2011 2:05 pm

luthersloan wrote:
Verity wrote:
luthersloan wrote:And I was simply saying the ABA cannot really be counted on to do that in a sort of fair way, given its inherent susceptibility to regulatory capture. Honestly, the ABA seems on balance to be useless. The accredit basically all comers, but do so while imposing requirements that increase costs. Eliminating it and the accreditation requirement would almost certainly reduce costs. But if all you advocating for is greater disclosure, I (and I think pretty much everyone who ever read a TLS board) agree with you. Law schools certainly report, what little data they do report, in ways that seem designed to mislead. Though, it does not really seem like the greater awareness of this fact is doing all that much to control demand, too many people suffer from “special snowflake” syndrome.


Wtf? The ABA is not part of the government. Goal 1 of its mission is to "Serve [its] members," and goal 2 is to "Improve our profession." What are you talking about?



Did I ever say it was part of the government? It wields regulatory authority in the form the requirement that to sit for the bar one must be a graduate of a school it has accredited. I am unsure how I gave the impression it was an arm of the government, nor why that would even matter. The reality is it indirectly wields state power and seems to have used that power in a way that helps no one except law schools. When people ask the ABA to step up and “do something” I have always assumed that means impose reporting requirements on the schools it regulates. I was simply pointing out why that it is unlikely to be the case.


Regulatory capture is when a government agency starts advocating for special interests, which would not be the case here. Accrediting schools who meet certain requirements on the one hand, and then forcing them to be upfront about employment statistics and to maybe even publish its own stats on the other hand, to me isn't unfair or even in conflict. Its a professional organization that is supposed to improve the profession.

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Re: Where do contract / temp attorneys come from?

Postby luthersloan » Fri Jul 22, 2011 2:15 pm

Wtf? The ABA is not part of the government. Goal 1 of its mission is to "Serve [its] members," and goal 2 is to "Improve our profession." What are you talking about?[/quote]


Did I ever say it was part of the government? It wields regulatory authority in the form the requirement that to sit for the bar one must be a graduate of a school it has accredited. I am unsure how I gave the impression it was an arm of the government, nor why that would even matter. The reality is it indirectly wields state power and seems to have used that power in a way that helps no one except law schools. When people ask the ABA to step up and “do something” I have always assumed that means impose reporting requirements on the schools it regulates. I was simply pointing out why that it is unlikely to be the case.[/quote]

Regulatory capture is when a government agency starts advocating for special interests, which would not be the case here. Accrediting schools who meet certain requirements on the one hand, and then forcing them to be upfront about employment statistics and to maybe even publish its own stats on the other hand, to me isn't unfair or even in conflict. Its a professional organization that is supposed to improve the profession.[/quote]


It is not necessary that an entity be a part of the government for it to be subject to regulatory capture, nominally the Federal Reserve is both a private entity and a regulator. It certainly can be capture. But, that is not my point. What I was saying is that a professional organization will do exactly as its missions statement indicates, it will serve the interest of its members. In this case, by failing to require real information be reported it has merely been captured by a subset of its members, to wit law school professors, administrators and deans. It could just as easily be captured by practicing lawyers, who would seek to raise the bar to practice as high as possible to increase their own compensation. It is not realistic to think that the ABA could ever be anything other than a tool of special interest, namely lawyers generally or a subset of them. Thus, it is not an entity that should be expected to regulate law schools, or entry into the profession generally, fairly.

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Re: Where do contract / temp attorneys come from?

Postby crossarmant » Fri Jul 22, 2011 2:25 pm

luthersloan wrote:And I was simply saying the ABA cannot really be counted on to do that in a sort of fair way, given its inherent susceptibility to regulatory capture. Honestly, the ABA seems on balance to be useless. The accredit basically all comers, but do so while imposing requirements that increase costs. Eliminating it and the accreditation requirement would almost certainly reduce costs. But if all you advocating for is greater disclosure, I (and I think pretty much everyone who ever read a TLS board) agree with you. Law schools certainly report, what little data they do report, in ways that seem designed to mislead. Though, it does not really seem like the greater awareness of this fact is doing all that much to control demand, too many people suffer from “special snowflake” syndrome.


Makes me think of this link: http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2011/07/21/aba-to-senator-grassley-we-share-your-concerns-about-law-schools/

Pretty much the ABA is saying, "Yeah, we understand there's an overflow of attorneys and too many school manufacturing them... We get that jobs are scarce right now... But we're not going to do anything."

They complain that they can't just dis-accredit schools because there are two many; but why not up the accreditation standards so there for the schools either need to up their game or get cut from the ABA roster? They have all of these schools under their governance (Even if I imagine, the schools as a whole control the ABA), they could easily make the requirements to retain accreditation harder therefore reducing the number of schools, improving quality of those schools, and actually helping the legal profession as a whole so much more so than simply mass producing lawyers and letting the market sift through for the gold. All while screwing those who uninformed, enrolled in a TTTT thinking that regardless of alma mater, a JD is gold.

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Re: Where do contract / temp attorneys come from?

Postby Verity » Fri Jul 22, 2011 2:49 pm

luthersloan wrote:It is not necessary that an entity be a part of the government for it to be subject to regulatory capture, nominally the Federal Reserve is both a private entity and a regulator. It certainly can be capture. But, that is not my point. What I was saying is that a professional organization will do exactly as its missions statement indicates, it will serve the interest of its members. In this case, by failing to require real information be reported it has merely been captured by a subset of its members, to wit law school professors, administrators and deans. It could just as easily be captured by practicing lawyers, who would seek to raise the bar to practice as high as possible to increase their own compensation. It is not realistic to think that the ABA could ever be anything other than a tool of special interest, namely lawyers generally or a subset of them. Thus, it is not an entity that should be expected to regulate law schools, or entry into the profession generally, fairly.


How many deans, professors and administrators are out there? How many lawyers and law students? The latter group is much larger, and the ABA should work primarily in its interest. As a matter of fact, accreditation is actually secondary to it's more fundamental purposes of improving the profession and serving its members.

There is no conflict between setting standards for accreditation and making sure law schools don't distort employment facts. Why you, as a student, would cloud discussion with this stuff instead of advocating for change is beyond me.

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Re: Where do contract / temp attorneys come from?

Postby luthersloan » Fri Jul 22, 2011 3:01 pm

Verity wrote:
luthersloan wrote:It is not necessary that an entity be a part of the government for it to be subject to regulatory capture, nominally the Federal Reserve is both a private entity and a regulator. It certainly can be capture. But, that is not my point. What I was saying is that a professional organization will do exactly as its missions statement indicates, it will serve the interest of its members. In this case, by failing to require real information be reported it has merely been captured by a subset of its members, to wit law school professors, administrators and deans. It could just as easily be captured by practicing lawyers, who would seek to raise the bar to practice as high as possible to increase their own compensation. It is not realistic to think that the ABA could ever be anything other than a tool of special interest, namely lawyers generally or a subset of them. Thus, it is not an entity that should be expected to regulate law schools, or entry into the profession generally, fairly.


How many deans, professors and administrators are out there? How many lawyers and law students? The latter group is much larger, and the ABA should work primarily in its interest. As a matter of fact, accreditation is actually secondary to it's more fundamental purposes of improving the profession and serving its members.

There is no conflict between setting standards for accreditation and making sure law schools don't distort employment facts. Why you, as a student, would cloud discussion with this stuff instead of advocating for change is beyond me.


I fail to see how advocating that the authority for regulating law school should be assigned to a different entity then the one to which it is assigned presently could logically be opposing change. I certainly favor other changes as well, but it certainly would be foolish of me not to object to proposed changes that are unlikely to change things for the better, or unlikely to happen at all given the conservative nature of institutions like the ABA. I have, in this thread and others, advocated the only change I think will meaningfully alter the supply problems in this market- to wit an end to federal student loans. Other changes like abolishing the ABA, or simply divesting it of the authority to regulate law schools, removing any graduation requirement to sit for the bar, or removing the bar exam itself would also make the law school market more efficient and put an end to the system law schools have so profitably exploited.

As to the issue about employment data, it is simply that a powerful faction within the ABA opposes such a change, it is not that there is a conflict between the two, it is that the accreditation power is what gives the ABA the ability, at least theoretically, to require disclosure.

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Re: Where do contract / temp attorneys come from?

Postby robotclubmember » Fri Jul 22, 2011 3:07 pm

do want moar areyouinsane.

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A'nold
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Re: Where do contract / temp attorneys come from?

Postby A'nold » Fri Jul 22, 2011 3:08 pm

Poor robo. He scawed and sad he went to waw school.

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Re: Where do contract / temp attorneys come from?

Postby Verity » Fri Jul 22, 2011 3:17 pm

luthersloan wrote:I fail to see how advocating that the authority for regulating law school should be assigned to a different entity then the one to which it is assigned presently could logically be opposing change. I certainly favor other changes as well, but it certainly would be foolish of me not to object to proposed changes that are unlikely to change things for the better, or unlikely to happen at all given the conservative nature of institutions like the ABA. I have, in this thread and others, advocated the only change I think will meaningfully alter the supply problems in this market- to wit an end to federal student loans. Other changes like abolishing the ABA, or simply divesting it of the authority to regulate law schools, removing any graduation requirement to sit for the bar, or removing the bar exam itself would also make the law school market more efficient and put an end to the system law schools have so profitably exploited.

As to the issue about employment data, it is simply that a powerful faction within the ABA opposes such a change, it is not that there is a conflict between the two, it is that the accreditation power is what gives the ABA the ability, at least theoretically, to require disclosure.


You think it's easier to abolish the ABA, than for its largest (by far) constituency to get it to start banning distortions? If not, then why advocate that?

I mean seriously, if everyone had your attitude, there would be no need to get involved in politics. Oh, it's all controlled by strong factions, blah, blah. We are the ABA's largest constituency, and probably the most powerful. We are served no purpose by continuing the law school pipedreams and false perceptions that crowd the market.

We are also served no purpose by having a defeatist attitude.

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Re: Where do contract / temp attorneys come from?

Postby luthersloan » Fri Jul 22, 2011 3:33 pm

You think it's easier to abolish the ABA, than for its largest (by far) constituency to get it to start banning distortions? If not, then why advocate that?

I mean seriously, if everyone had your attitude, there would be no need to get involved in politics. Oh, it's all controlled by strong factions, blah, blah. We are the ABA's largest constituency, and probably the most powerful. We are served no purpose by continuing the law school pipedreams and false perceptions that crowd the market.

We are also served no purpose by having a defeatist attitude.[/quote]

I am at a loss. I was simply saying that the ABA is not the best form to advance this cause in, how that translates into defeatism is beyond me. In fact, my pointing to the dangers that would present if students and practitioners gained control rather indicates I am not a defeatist.

However, I do think there are better ways to deal with this problem then trying to get the ABA to do something. Such as enforcing laws against the provision of false or misleading information. My main point however, is that I think far too much is made of disclosure. It does not seem as though students are as turned off by the poor job prospects as they should be. Besides with all the stories in the Times it will be harder for students to not be more fully informed. There can be only limited improvements in the prospects for law students if either (a) the ABA raises the standards of accreditation so as to force a lot of schools from the market, which could easily create a shortage of lawyers. Or (b) the government ceases the subsidy, in the form of student loans, to legal education. I tend to think (b) is a better way to go.

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Re: Where do contract / temp attorneys come from?

Postby areyouinsane » Fri Jul 22, 2011 3:39 pm

Change, if any, must come at the state level, but I feel it's every bit as unlikely as anything changing at the ABA. Here's why:

First, the ideal solution would be to break the ABA's grip on the legal education industry by allowing non-ABA grads to sit state bars. Currently CA, Minnesota, and perhaps a handful of other states allow non-ABA grads to sit the bar (NY has an obscure apprenticeship program with insane requirements that render it largely a moot relic of the pre WWII era).

To do so, states would have to decide if they'll either:

1.) Require an non-ABA lawschool program as a pre-req. to sit the bar (like all the CA-bar approved schools), or,

2.) Allow a self-study (online perhaps?) program, or a combo apprenticeship/non-ABA lawschool "hybrid" model.

I think we're unlikely to see either implemented in many states b/c the state bar leaders/members are mostly successful (or VERY successful) lawyers, and have no interest in further increasing the amount of lawyers in their respective states. By maintaining the ABA lawschool requirement, they at least somewhat limit the supply of fresh lawyers. Allowing the "wild card" of non-ABA schools and self-study would truly open the floodgates and make a law license even more worthless than it already is.

Of course, the states who allowed non-ABA schools could likely make the bar'zam much harder (like CA), where only a small % of non-ABA grads would have any realistic chance at passing. Yet this seems esp. "cruel" since these flunkers would have made a considerable time/effort/$$$ investment that will likely never result in licensure and the ability to earn a living.

Probably the best model would be to have 2 "classes" of lawyers: One class would be the ABA school grads. These kids could do trials, work at Biglaw firms, take depositions, etc. You could also only admit to Federal courts ABA grads.

Then you could have a lower class of law license for shitlaw lawyers. These people could draft wills, appear in traffic court, etc under a "limited" license. Kind of like the English barrister/solicitor model.

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Re: Where do contract / temp attorneys come from?

Postby areyouinsane » Fri Jul 22, 2011 4:00 pm

For those who haven't seen it, check out the ABA's infamous "outsourcing" opinion:

--LinkRemoved--

Not only did the ABA give it the OK, they practically gushed about what a splendid idea it was:

The outsourcing trend is a salutary one for our globalized economy

I was temping when this opinion came out, and as it made the rounds in the SullCrom basement we all knew the gig was up. No way was Biglaw gonna pay us a decent rate + OT to do this crap when the ABA practically begged them to send it to India.

Now, three years later, the temp jobs are mostly all gone and the few that remain pay 30-50% less than the same work did in 2007. Mostly all that remains in NYC are super short-term gigs where it wouldn't make sense to outsource (like a one week project).

No professional trade org. works as hard to screw it's own people as the ABA. It's one thing to accredit all comers, but to ENDORSE sending legal work offshore is quite another matter. Can you really imagine any other trade org. coming out with an opinion like this? Those temp jobs are the best that TTT losers like me could ever hope for. Those jobs paid my rent, my student loans, and still allowed Biglaw a pretty hefty profit margin on my work. But obviously the profit margin on outsourcing is even greater, since Indian doc reviewers earn less than 10 K a YEAR:

http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1200996336809


I love this quote:

Price is not ultimately where Pangea3 wants to compete though. Perla is forthright in stating his belief that Pangea3 does better work.

The only lawyers who work for staffing agencies, said Perla, "are the ones who couldn't make it as real lawyers."

In his view, the temporary lawyers typically hired to perform document review on major litigation have minimal skills and zero motivation. In contrast, Pangea3 can attract the best and the brightest young lawyers in India, fluent in English and trained in English common law. Perla said clients have held "bake-offs" in which the Pangea3's Indian lawyers were asked to perform the same tasks as U.S. contract lawyers. He said the Indians soundly trounced the Americans.


I really can't understand how the ABA can set requirements for American law schools, yet at the same time green-light the wholesale outsourcing of legal work to people a world away who never even sat the LSAT, much less completed 3 years at an ABA school and passed a state bar. American lawyers also have to submit to intense background checks, pay bar dues and CLE fees, notify the bar of address changes, etc. The Indians endure NONE of these requirements. This may be the single biggest screw-job in the history of American labor relations. Right after this opnion came out, the jobs started drying up and the rates began to plunge.

The "adequete supervision" nonsense is a red herring and pure window dressing. A job like e-discovery requires one to look independently at 100s of thousands of individual documents and apply legal training/judgement calls as to whether they're responsive, priviledged, etc. Short of having an American check over every single one, there is no way you can really "supervise" this type of work. But hey, it increases Biglaw profits and screws an entire sub-class of worthless TTT grads like me out of one of the only jobs we could actually earn a living at, so who cares?

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Re: Where do contract / temp attorneys come from?

Postby Bronte » Fri Jul 22, 2011 8:14 pm

luthersloan wrote:I do not think it is "wrong" that higher education be such a high stakes gamble. The only way it could be otherwise (at least so long as remains very expensive) it to shift the risk from the person undertaking the schooling, to some one else. The only real problem is that it is highly subsidized gamble, and one which people seem to be poorly informed about.


Another option besides "shifting the risk" (I don't see how this comes into play) would be making harder to get into law school by closing about 100 law schools that should not be allowed to issue JDs.

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Re: Where do contract / temp attorneys come from?

Postby Renzo » Fri Jul 22, 2011 9:40 pm

Verity wrote:
You think it's easier to abolish the ABA, than for its largest (by far) constituency to get it to start banning distortions? If not, then why advocate that?
.


Uh, law students are NOT the largest ABA constituency. Those would be large firms and law schools, who are doing just fine by the current system.

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Re: Where do contract / temp attorneys come from?

Postby seatown12 » Fri Jul 22, 2011 9:52 pm

The ABA should stop focusing on library tomes and shit and just judge schools on bar passage % and employment stats. New graduates should be required to have their employer notify the ABA when they start work and any who fail to notify are counted as unemployed. Schools who have too many bar failures or unemployed grads lose their accreditation. Easy.

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Re: Where do contract / temp attorneys come from?

Postby A'nold » Fri Jul 22, 2011 9:57 pm

seatown12 wrote:The ABA should stop focusing on library tomes and shit and just judge schools on bar passage % and employment stats. New graduates should be required to have their employer notify the ABA when they start work and any who fail to notify are counted as unemployed. Schools who have too many bar failures or unemployed grads lose their accreditation. Easy.

Actually that's a really good idea. Forcing schools to list unreported graduates as unemployed would really at least help 0L's make more informed decisions.

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Re: Where do contract / temp attorneys come from?

Postby Bronte » Fri Jul 22, 2011 10:07 pm

A'nold wrote:
seatown12 wrote:The ABA should stop focusing on library tomes and shit and just judge schools on bar passage % and employment stats. New graduates should be required to have their employer notify the ABA when they start work and any who fail to notify are counted as unemployed. Schools who have too many bar failures or unemployed grads lose their accreditation. Easy.

Actually that's a really good idea. Forcing schools to list unreported graduates as unemployed would really at least help 0L's make more informed decisions.


It's not a novel idea. Everyone on TLS, ATL, every scamblog, http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/, etc. has been suggesting it for years. Mandatory reporting plus shut down 100 schools to limit the JD supply. The former is infinitely more likely than the latter, but both are a long time coming.

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A'nold
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Re: Where do contract / temp attorneys come from?

Postby A'nold » Fri Jul 22, 2011 10:24 pm

Bronte wrote:
A'nold wrote:
seatown12 wrote:The ABA should stop focusing on library tomes and shit and just judge schools on bar passage % and employment stats. New graduates should be required to have their employer notify the ABA when they start work and any who fail to notify are counted as unemployed. Schools who have too many bar failures or unemployed grads lose their accreditation. Easy.

Actually that's a really good idea. Forcing schools to list unreported graduates as unemployed would really at least help 0L's make more informed decisions.


It's not a novel idea. Everyone on TLS, ATL, every scamblog, http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/, etc. has been suggesting it for years. Mandatory reporting plus shut down 100 schools to limit the JD supply. The former is infinitely more likely than the latter, but both are a long time coming.

Never said it was novel. You guys are edgy man. :)

Of course people have been recommending greater transparency and shutting down law schools for years. Trust me, I've been hearing this for about the past 5 years. I'm just talking about that one little tweak that could really make a difference. This is something tangible and attainable that could have an immediate effect without upending the entire system.

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Bronte
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Re: Where do contract / temp attorneys come from?

Postby Bronte » Fri Jul 22, 2011 10:45 pm

A'nold wrote:Never said it was novel. You guys are edgy man. :)

Of course people have been recommending greater transparency and shutting down law schools for years. Trust me, I've been hearing this for about the past 5 years. I'm just talking about that one little tweak that could really make a difference. This is something tangible and attainable that could have an immediate effect without upending the entire system.


You sorta implied that it was a novel idea (to the same extent that I really didn't say you said it was a novel idea), but that's beside the point. My point is that there's senators calling for the ABA to mandate disclosure now. The ABA has had special panels assembled to look into it. But as an organization they're kinda like the UN; they have trouble making shit stick.

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Verity
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Re: Where do contract / temp attorneys come from?

Postby Verity » Fri Jul 22, 2011 11:12 pm

Bronte wrote:
A'nold wrote:Never said it was novel. You guys are edgy man. :)

Of course people have been recommending greater transparency and shutting down law schools for years. Trust me, I've been hearing this for about the past 5 years. I'm just talking about that one little tweak that could really make a difference. This is something tangible and attainable that could have an immediate effect without upending the entire system.


You sorta implied that it was a novel idea (to the same extent that I really didn't say you said it was a novel idea), but that's beside the point. My point is that there's senators calling for the ABA to mandate disclosure now. The ABA has had special panels assembled to look into it. But as an organization they're kinda like the UN; they have trouble making shit stick.


Too much coffee, not enough sex.




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