Where do contract / temp attorneys come from?

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A'nold
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Re: Where do contract / temp attorneys come from?

Postby A'nold » Wed Jul 20, 2011 11:12 pm

You guys are so naive it makes me cringe. For one thing, I did not attack you data tar guy. I wasn't even talking about you. BUT, after I listened to your little monologue, I now know that you fit perfectly into what I am talking about. Self-righteous, arrogant 0L that thinks he knows everything. All 0L's like you always puff out their chests and blather on about statistics and what supports this and that analysis and how, even if you were a law student, you would have the same exact opinion b/c what you say is 100% supported by facts.......

Verity- I went to a TTT, and a rancid one at that. I think I can speak to the subject much better than some JDU troll that has been posting scam blog stories for the past 5+ years and pops his head in here every now and then to bash on Seton Hall. I've been around law school message boards since around 2006 or so when I first started looking into law. I've seen it all. I've seen this exact exchange probably 50 times in that span. You are newbies at it and are all zealous about the subject. You will become more level headed about the subject once you actually work with real attorneys and meet hundreds of them on a regular basis. Like I said above, yes, not everybody gets a job coming out of law school and yes, there are ttt's that screw people over. The scam bloggers are people that went to schools like Drake and tried to move to NYC and live a sex in the city type lifestyle. They are bitter and spread their vitriol in as many places as they can. It is always the flavor of the month to talk about how bad things are for lawyers. Just look back at all the articles that have been written about the "law school scam" throughout the years. Most of the people that are spotlighted in these articles are people that went to lower ranked schools, spent gobs of money, and were not proactive or realistic in their job searches. The Drake example above is actually a real life example. In fact, this author might be the very guy that I'm talking about. He's famous on the scam blog sites. There's nothing new in this topic.

Edit to add: Yes it is extremely hard out there right now. But for anyone willing to allow reason into their heads, know that this guy is full of crap and that yes, even if you go to a ttt you will likely be able to find some kind of legal job somewhere in the country WITHIN 10 YEARS. My gosh.

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Verity
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Re: Where do contract / temp attorneys come from?

Postby Verity » Wed Jul 20, 2011 11:25 pm

A'nold wrote:You guys are so naive it makes me cringe. For one thing, I did not attack you data tar guy. I wasn't even talking about you. BUT, after I listened to your little monologue, I now know that you fit perfectly into what I am talking about. Self-righteous, arrogant 0L that thinks he knows everything. All 0L's like you always puff out their chests and blather on about statistics and what supports this and that analysis and how, even if you were a law student, you would have the same exact opinion b/c what you say is 100% supported by facts.......

Verity- I went to a TTT, and a rancid one at that. I think I can speak to the subject much better than some JDU troll that has been posting scam blog stories for the past 5+ years and pops his head in here every now and then to bash on Seton Hall. I've been around law school message boards since around 2006 or so when I first started looking into law. I've seen it all. I've seen this exact exchange probably 50 times in that span. You are newbies at it and are all zealous about the subject. You will become more level headed about the subject once you actually work with real attorneys and meet hundreds of them on a regular basis. Like I said above, yes, not everybody gets a job coming out of law school and yes, there are ttt's that screw people over. The scam bloggers are people that went to schools like Drake and tried to move to NYC and live a sex in the city type lifestyle. They are bitter and spread their vitriol in as many places as they can. It is always the flavor of the month to talk about how bad things are for lawyers. Just look back at all the articles that have been written about the "law school scam" throughout the years. Most of the people that are spotlighted in these articles are people that went to lower ranked schools, spent gobs of money, and were not proactive or realistic in their job searches. The Drake example above is actually a real life example. In fact, this author might be the very guy that I'm talking about. He's famous on the scam blog sites. There's nothing new in this topic.


Look, it would be foolish for anyone to assert that going to law school always leads to doom. I think I was pretty clear about lucrative work always existing. But if areyouinsane's stories are completely true, then there is evidence to be gained from them not just about his situation, but the people he worked around. His descriptions of other law firms, doc review services, courthouses, and all of those characters in there, if they are real, are probably quite telling of stuff that's usually overlooked. This is a very real part of the legal industry. It's anecdotal, but it gives you a real glimpse into part of the statistics.

At bottom, we should be talking about risks, not possibilities. What's the chance of gaining meaningful employment from a TTT? With today's tuition levels, is all the toil worth it? Everyone thinking about law school needs to assess this. We heard from lucky students with great jobs, we heard from others who are unemployed but looking, etc....and now, we're hearing from someone who sampled just about the most rancid caviar at the party. His stories imply that he's not the only one (e.g., his co-workers).

To be fair to areyouinsane, he never said that becoming a lawyer is always a bad idea. His analysis of risk may not be completely level-headed. But hey, to tell you the truth, I'd rather that people on the fence about law read this, freak out, and find something else. That leaves behind those who are determined, and frankly we don't need any more people getting into law.

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robotclubmember
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Re: Where do contract / temp attorneys come from?

Postby robotclubmember » Wed Jul 20, 2011 11:32 pm

A'nold wrote:You guys are so naive it makes me cringe. For one thing, I did not attack you data tar guy. I wasn't even talking about you. BUT, after I listened to your little monologue, I now know that you fit perfectly into what I am talking about. Self-righteous, arrogant 0L that thinks he knows everything. All 0L's like you always puff out their chests and blather on about statistics and what supports this and that analysis and how, even if you were a law student, you would have the same exact opinion b/c what you say is 100% supported by facts.......

Verity- I went to a TTT, and a rancid one at that. I think I can speak to the subject much better than some JDU troll that has been posting scam blog stories for the past 5+ years and pops his head in here every now and then to bash on Seton Hall. I've been around law school message boards since around 2006 or so when I first started looking into law. I've seen it all. I've seen this exact exchange probably 50 times in that span. You are newbies at it and are all zealous about the subject. You will become more level headed about the subject once you actually work with real attorneys and meet hundreds of them on a regular basis. Like I said above, yes, not everybody gets a job coming out of law school and yes, there are ttt's that screw people over. The scam bloggers are people that went to schools like Drake and tried to move to NYC and live a sex in the city type lifestyle. They are bitter and spread their vitriol in as many places as they can. It is always the flavor of the month to talk about how bad things are for lawyers. Just look back at all the articles that have been written about the "law school scam" throughout the years. Most of the people that are spotlighted in these articles are people that went to lower ranked schools, spent gobs of money, and were not proactive or realistic in their job searches. The Drake example above is actually a real life example. In fact, this author might be the very guy that I'm talking about. He's famous on the scam blog sites. There's nothing new in this topic.

Edit to add: Yes it is extremely hard out there right now. But for anyone willing to allow reason into their heads, know that this guy is full of crap and that yes, even if you go to a ttt you will likely be able to find some kind of legal job somewhere in the country WITHIN 10 YEARS. My gosh.


Gosh. That's a lot of generalization. And he did have a legal job until his PI partner was disbarred, which put a stain on his resume. He's still working temp gigs but they're prob harder to get now because the 2011 class just graduated so tons of fresh resumes out there, some even from T14 schools.

Maybe people have been talking about it since 2006 because TTT's have been a scam since 2006. That's like saying that people shouldn't be talking about the war in Iraq anymore now because they were already talking about it in 2006. Maybe it's still a very relevant point to be making today. maybe with 66K enrollees in 2011 to compete for an expected 30,000 jobs suggests the problem is even worse than ever.

And without people "scamblogging," who exactly is holding the law schools accountable for their misrepresented data? Not the ABA.

The issue I have with you is your ignorant dismissal of OP. So I'm guessing you got a good legal job. You rolled a higher number than areyouinsane while you guys were throwing dice on the proverbial cardboard-box-in-a-crack-gutter that is a TTT. Well that's great but what's true for you isn't true for everyone else. Are you suggesting that there isn't a single person who deserved a job just as much as you and didn't get one? That it's just their fault? The economy is not a fair place right now for people who were lied to and told 98% employment $160k median salary. The only thing people can do is try to protect the future stability of the industry by combatting oversupply, and providing the rational actors of this economy with real information (not the law school's fairy tale employment stats) so that they are better informed in making the decision to attend or not. That's what areyouinsane is doing and you need to get over it.

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A'nold
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Re: Where do contract / temp attorneys come from?

Postby A'nold » Wed Jul 20, 2011 11:41 pm

robotclubmember wrote:
A'nold wrote:You guys are so naive it makes me cringe. For one thing, I did not attack you data tar guy. I wasn't even talking about you. BUT, after I listened to your little monologue, I now know that you fit perfectly into what I am talking about. Self-righteous, arrogant 0L that thinks he knows everything. All 0L's like you always puff out their chests and blather on about statistics and what supports this and that analysis and how, even if you were a law student, you would have the same exact opinion b/c what you say is 100% supported by facts.......

Verity- I went to a TTT, and a rancid one at that. I think I can speak to the subject much better than some JDU troll that has been posting scam blog stories for the past 5+ years and pops his head in here every now and then to bash on Seton Hall. I've been around law school message boards since around 2006 or so when I first started looking into law. I've seen it all. I've seen this exact exchange probably 50 times in that span. You are newbies at it and are all zealous about the subject. You will become more level headed about the subject once you actually work with real attorneys and meet hundreds of them on a regular basis. Like I said above, yes, not everybody gets a job coming out of law school and yes, there are ttt's that screw people over. The scam bloggers are people that went to schools like Drake and tried to move to NYC and live a sex in the city type lifestyle. They are bitter and spread their vitriol in as many places as they can. It is always the flavor of the month to talk about how bad things are for lawyers. Just look back at all the articles that have been written about the "law school scam" throughout the years. Most of the people that are spotlighted in these articles are people that went to lower ranked schools, spent gobs of money, and were not proactive or realistic in their job searches. The Drake example above is actually a real life example. In fact, this author might be the very guy that I'm talking about. He's famous on the scam blog sites. There's nothing new in this topic.

Edit to add: Yes it is extremely hard out there right now. But for anyone willing to allow reason into their heads, know that this guy is full of crap and that yes, even if you go to a ttt you will likely be able to find some kind of legal job somewhere in the country WITHIN 10 YEARS. My gosh.


Gosh. That's a lot of generalization. And he did have a legal job until his PI partner was disbarred, which put a stain on his resume. He's still working temp gigs but they're prob harder to get now because the 2011 class just graduated so tons of fresh resumes out there, some even from T14 schools.

Maybe people have been talking about it since 2006 because TTT's have been a scam since 2006. That's like saying that people shouldn't be talking about the war in Iraq anymore now because they were already talking about it in 2006. Maybe it's still a very relevant point to be making today. maybe with 66K enrollees in 2011 to compete for an expected 30,000 jobs suggests the problem is even worse than ever.

And without people "scamblogging," who exactly is holding the law schools accountable for their misrepresented data? Not the ABA.

The issue I have with you is your ignorant dismissal of OP. So I'm guessing you got a good legal job. You rolled a higher number than areyouinsane while you guys were throwing dice on the proverbial cardboard-box-in-a-crack-gutter that is a TTT. Well that's great but what's true for you isn't true for everyone else. Are you suggesting that there isn't a single person who deserved a job just as much as you and didn't get one? That it's just their fault? The economy is not a fair place right now for people who were lied to and told 98% employment $160k median salary. The only thing people can do is try to protect the future stability of the industry by combatting oversupply, and providing the rational actors of this economy with real information (not the law school's fairy tale employment stats) so that they are better informed in making the decision to attend or not. That's what areyouinsane is doing and you need to get over it.

Man, it's like a freakin' broken record player. I could have written out your response before reading it.

He is a troll. His sole purpose is to go onto law school sites and scare the crap out of naive 0L's that believe his crap. There are real people struggling out there for legitimate reasons. He is not one. I'm sorry to ruin the image of your fairytale hero.

As for myself? Yep, I'm rollin' in the biglaw moneyz! I'm just a guy that got lucky but thinks he worked hard and deserved a job more than everyone else. :roll: You are impossible.

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robotclubmember
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Re: Where do contract / temp attorneys come from?

Postby robotclubmember » Wed Jul 20, 2011 11:43 pm

it's pretty obv who the troll is

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Verity
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Re: Where do contract / temp attorneys come from?

Postby Verity » Wed Jul 20, 2011 11:45 pm

A'nold wrote:As for myself? Yep, I'm trollin'...


FTFY

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A'nold
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Re: Where do contract / temp attorneys come from?

Postby A'nold » Wed Jul 20, 2011 11:53 pm

Really? Ad homs?

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robotclubmember
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Re: Where do contract / temp attorneys come from?

Postby robotclubmember » Wed Jul 20, 2011 11:56 pm

A'nold wrote:Really? Ad homs?


ad homs is when i tell u imma flip yo wig u bitch ass bitch

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Verity
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Re: Where do contract / temp attorneys come from?

Postby Verity » Thu Jul 21, 2011 2:13 am

A'nold wrote:Really? Ad homs?


Yeah, from you:

A'nold wrote:He is a troll. His sole purpose is to go onto law school sites and scare the crap out of naive 0L's that believe his crap. There are real people struggling out there for legitimate reasons. He is not one. I'm sorry to ruin the image of your fairytale hero.

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Kabuo
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Re: Where do contract / temp attorneys come from?

Postby Kabuo » Thu Jul 21, 2011 6:03 am

robotclubmember wrote: these are just your opinions. i state facts. you can't offer up a bunch of wishy washy generalizations in the hopes that it will substitute for fact. i'm not just some prelaw, i'm a cpa who's spent a few years in consulting and audit. analysis was my livelihood. if you don't like my analysis of the facts, then don't blame me. blame the facts. at what point have i lost sight of reason? believe it or not, my analytical background might better equip me to comment on developments in the job market for lawyers than current law students or even current lawyers, just in the same way an economist would be better able to speak to fast food hiring trends than a line cook at mcdonald's.



I don't want to jump in on either side of this argument as I just don't care and am only here to read areyouinsane's posts, but the bolded is kind of hilarious.

gulcregret
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Re: Where do contract / temp attorneys come from?

Postby gulcregret » Thu Jul 21, 2011 10:19 am

It's not just students at lower ranked schools. I'm at GULC and we only placed like 30% of our 2Ls in BigLaw. Most of our 2L class is working in unpaid internships this summer. A few top 10% students got no summer offers out of OCI and are doing either unpaid legal work or working for professors. It's really challenging to find work from mostly any law school because BigLaw has cut its hiring by at least 30-50% over the past few years, so every other legal job has much more qualified applicants but the same number of open positions.

Both sides of this argument are correct, but correct in different ways. I would say most law students will end up with some sort of decent, living-wage work long-term. But then there are some who won't. There are no generalizations that can be made about the current legal economy because it is so crazy right now. Plus none of us have the true story of what is going on because we aren't hiring partners or HR people in the gov't. Everyone on here arguing one extreme or the other is just wrong. If one wants to go to law school after all this information and risk about finding legal jobs (even some students at the very top don't get BigLaw jobs), then so be it. It's great that it's being discussed by vault, NYTimes, etc. At least people get to see the risk.

Schools are going to continue to lie about job placement data until it's illegal not to. GULC changed the way they report their data recently to reflect a more accurate depiction. 50% of 2010 landed in the private sector, and at least half of them are making BigLaw money (160k is the median). That could mean as little as 25% of the graduating class got BigLaw, or it could mean 50% of the class is making 160k (that's what the median salary tells you, it would be very helpful to see some ranges and sample sizes, but I'm sure we will never get that).

The fact is, most people from any schools, top or bottom will not get the BigLaw 160k jobs. I think people below median at HLS and below will attest to this (I could be wrong, maybe the T6 will place a majority of their students into BigLaw). I know that most of my class, 2Ls at GULC, did not get BigLaw and will never get BigLaw. So now there are at least another 300 students with law degrees from a "top school" looking for entry level jobs this fall. And most through no fault of their own. By definition, there will always be a bottom half of the class, no matter what schools inflate their GPAs to be. So who knows, maybe a bunch of those temp jobs will be filled up with the bottom half of classes from the lower end of the T14. I know a lot of people who are starting families in law school who will be graduating with over 100k in debt who will gladly do anything to make money. We all thought it was "safe" to go to a "top school" as long as we were in the top 2/3 of the class. Truth is, it's never safe, even if you're in the top third.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Where do contract / temp attorneys come from?

Postby vanwinkle » Thu Jul 21, 2011 10:25 am

Do I smell 0Ls arguing in the Legal Employment forum?

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Rooney
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Re: Where do contract / temp attorneys come from?

Postby Rooney » Thu Jul 21, 2011 10:30 am

vanwinkle wrote:Do I smell 0Ls arguing in the Legal Employment forum?


:lol:

areyouinsane
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Re: Where do contract / temp attorneys come from?

Postby areyouinsane » Thu Jul 21, 2011 1:04 pm

This was in my inbox this morning:

http://myemail.constantcontact.com/NYC- ... fbTFuUHeXw

Those are some mighty long hours, all paid at flat rate (as I've said before, none of these jobs pay time & a half anymore). Bad news is this job is thru De Novo legal, who have their own off-site workspace which is run like a gulag. You have to check your cellphone into a numbered cubby before you enter the caseroom, and there's no talking or food allowed at your desk. Also no Internet access at the workstations (by the way, did any of you ever spend 14 hours a day at a computer that had no Internet access? It's strange, and akin to the legend of Tantalus.

The "professional exemption" to the overtime laws is just another legislative punch-in-the-gut that makes law even less attractice than blue-collar work, which by law must pay OT for anything over 40 hours.

Also, for those looking to "supplement" a solo practice with doc review, be aware that most agencies really frown upon that, and now expressly state so in their ads:

--LinkRemoved--

What the agencies want nowadays is/are "coders for life." People who have surrendered ever making something of themselves and will click, click, click these documents until they commit suicide or wise up & leave the U.S. (and their loan debt) behind.
Last edited by areyouinsane on Thu Jul 21, 2011 1:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Where do contract / temp attorneys come from?

Postby SchopenhauerFTW » Thu Jul 21, 2011 1:25 pm

areyouinsane wrote:This was in my inbox this morning:

http://myemail.constantcontact.com/NYC- ... fbTFuUHeXw

Those are some mighty long hours, all paid at flat rate (as I've said before, none of these jobs pay time & a half anymore). Bad news is this job is thru De Novo legal, who have their own off-site workspace which is run like a gulag. You have to check your cellphone into a numbered cubby before you enter the caseroom, and there's no talking or food allowed at your desk. Also no Internet access at the workstations (by the way, did any of you ever spend 14 hours a day at a computer that had no Internet access? It's strange, and akin to the legend of Tantalus.

The "professional exemption" to the overtime laws is just another legislative punch-in-the-gut that makes law even less attractice than blue-collar work, which by law must pay OT for anything over 40 hours.

How many temp agencies would you say have off-site conditions like this?

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Verity
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Re: Where do contract / temp attorneys come from?

Postby Verity » Thu Jul 21, 2011 1:35 pm

vanwinkle wrote:Do I smell 0Ls arguing in the Legal Employment forum?


Here comes the Gestapo.

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Re: Where do contract / temp attorneys come from?

Postby areyouinsane » Thu Jul 21, 2011 1:40 pm

How many temp agencies would you say have off-site conditions like this?


Nearly all of them, from what I hear from my old NYC friends who are still grinding it out in the gulags. These work conditions began circa 2007 when a large temp mill called "Discover Ready" came to downtown NYC. I interviewed there and couldn't f'ing believe the place. They rented a whole floor of a crumbling old building on Rector Street and had it set up "fishbowl" style. On the coding floor there were about 15 to 20 glass "boxes" or cubicles that held a dozen coders each, and you had to use a swipe-card to leave your box for bathroom breaks and such. That way, they knew exactly how many minutes you were not at your workstation, kinda like a Supermax prison. They also were the first with the "cell phone cubby-check" policy. Each cell phone cubby had a playing card inside it, and you took the card from an "empty" cubby and put your phone in there, then noted on the sheet which card you had (i.e, 10 of clubs, etc) so you wouldn't forget what cubby was yours. The reason (or "excuse, cough cough" for this was that the client didn't want anyone with a cell phone camera to take pictures of sensitive docs, etc. I think the real reason is that they didn't want photos of the workspeace itself leaking out. The coders I saw while on "tour" of this place were some really strange folks: they had that "glazed" look in their eyes as if Valium was in the water fountain. The whole scene gave me the creeps, so I turned down the gig and just waited for another spot to open up in the SullCrom basement. Better to stick with the devil you know, you know?

On the coding floor itself at Discover Ready, there were "straw bosses" at the "intersection" of every 4 cubicles (these straw-boss desks were exposed) to keep an eye on everyone. All the monitors were turned so that the straw boss could see everyone's screen at all times. They also had a really "loud" screensaver with like flashing orange lights so it would become apparent if anyone let their machine go to sleep. There were also signs everywhere that said "Quiet Please" and things like that. Very much "1984" / George Orwell type stuff.

There are a few decent agencies left (Lexolution is one) who have pretty chill work spaces and no "carding" in and out, but they have very few gigs anymore and most are very short-term.
Last edited by areyouinsane on Thu Jul 21, 2011 2:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

areyouinsane
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Re: Where do contract / temp attorneys come from?

Postby areyouinsane » Thu Jul 21, 2011 1:50 pm

Oh, and for those of you who think I'm making this shit up, here's a page from their website:

--LinkRemoved--

Note how they brag about "every project's data in separate "rooms" (LOL) and "biometric" door lock controls? And no "memory devices" (including cell phones) allowed on the coding floor?

I am certainly a loser (and complete and total failure to boot), but I'm not a liar. I know how hard it is to believe this shit when you're a 0 L getting all "Learned Hand" about E&E supplements and study groups and what font to put your personal statement in, etc. But it is real, and it's gruesome.

Anonymous User
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Re: Where do contract / temp attorneys come from?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jul 21, 2011 1:59 pm

I'm top 10% at a T10 and what you say still scares the shit out of me. I'm not sure whether to thank you or hate you.

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Mick Haller
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Re: Where do contract / temp attorneys come from?

Postby Mick Haller » Thu Jul 21, 2011 2:40 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I'm top 10% at a T10 and what you say still scares the shit out of me. I'm not sure whether to thank you or hate you.


You'll never end up like him, unless you choose to do so. Any self-respecting person would do like A'nold says, move to the middle of nowhere, hang a shingle or take whatever dead-end job they can find that provides one with a shred of dignity, and muddle through. Student loan debt will always be a struggle, but there is only so much blood they can squeeze from a turnip.

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Borhas
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Re: Where do contract / temp attorneys come from?

Postby Borhas » Thu Jul 21, 2011 2:45 pm

Mick Haller wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I'm top 10% at a T10 and what you say still scares the shit out of me. I'm not sure whether to thank you or hate you.


You'll never end up like him, unless you choose to do so. Any self-respecting person would do like A'nold says, move to the middle of nowhere, hang a shingle or take whatever dead-end job they can find that provides one with a shred of dignity, and muddle through. Student loan debt will always be a struggle, but there is only so much blood they can squeeze from a turnip.


life is not that simple

still, even people in T10's should be worried about jobs. Why? Because it's so fucking easy to get in to law schools, and because law schools don't teach you shit. Big Law legal hiring is a fucking blessing to these students who have no marketable skills other than a prestigious brand. It's no surprise that T-10 or higher students CAN become unemployed, because there isn't a damn thing about their credentials as a whole that says they are truly qualified to really be a lawyer (or any sort of profession).

I don't think there was ever a time and place where the brand of your degree could in and of itself guarantee you wealth and status. Would we even want that to happen?

Either case, it's wise for everyone to be proactive and to not take anything for granted. Though I admit this advice is useless when addressing the community at large because everyone can try harder and be more professional and there still won't be any more jobs to go around.

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Mick Haller
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Re: Where do contract / temp attorneys come from?

Postby Mick Haller » Thu Jul 21, 2011 2:51 pm

Borhas wrote:life is not that simple


For many people, you are correct. We often get hitched to a particular location for family or financial reasons. But what drives a person to stick with a particular profession in a particular location despite years of failure and tens of thousands of fruitless applications? You've got to find some way to adapt within your circumstances.

areyouinsane
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Re: Where do contract / temp attorneys come from?

Postby areyouinsane » Thu Jul 21, 2011 3:05 pm

You'll never end up like him, unless you choose to do so. Any self-respecting person would do like A'nold says, move to the middle of nowhere, hang a shingle or take whatever dead-end job they can find that provides one with a shred of dignity, and muddle through. Student loan debt will always be a struggle, but there is only so much blood they can squeeze from a turnip.



Sure. It's beyond easy with a budget of 0 dollars (and a car so shitty I'm afraid it will overheat/explode going across town), to cruise out to Kansas (or whatever you define as the "middle of nowhere), take the bar exam there, wait 4 months for results, pay the admission fees, rent an office, runs some ads, "hang a shingle," and hope to make a living while working a part-time job at Arby's to hopefully pay the rent on a room at the local YMCA. I'm sure all the locals will be lining up to have the new "Jersey Guy" handle their stuff, instead of Grandpa Joe, Esq who runs a combination law office/dairy farm and grew up with these folks in their 20 person high school class, etc.

Being a "self-respecting" person is great & all, but "self-respect" doesn't pay the rent (or student loans), or put food in your stomach. And re: "getting blood from a turnip," you might want to look into the facts about student loans. They are exempt from the Fair Debt Collections Practices Act, are not dischargable in bankruptcy, and have collection powers a Mafia loan shark could only dream of. It's a living nightmare dealing with these thugs- I had to swtich cell numbers because they were calling me 50 or 60 times a day, even on Sundays & holidays. They froze my checking account and made me bounce 4 other checks, each with a sweet $35 returned check fee + late charges from the people I bounced said checks to.

I think you're grossly underestimating what a miserable fucking nightmare being an indebted TTT grad is. It doesn't take much at all for the walls to start closing in and your "options" to vanish. My financial & employment situation is like a "totalled" car- beyond all repair. Why take a shitjob in some telemarketing place or work as a file clerk/fry cook/shitlaw attorney when nearly everything I earn will simply go to loan penalties and interest? Talk about a treadmill to nowhere.

The doc reviewers at places like Discover Ready have a choice between "dignity" and paying their bills, and have chosen the latter. You can choose one or the other, but not both. The supply/demand metrics have made it possible to pay & treat attorneys like completely expendable pieces of garbage, knowing that for every coder who quits there are 1000 more begging to take their place. This is the "new normal," and I want no part of it, hence my impending departure from the USA. Gotta try to rebuild elsewhere away from the loan shark shakedowns. Paying even one cent on those loans at this point is just throwing good $$$ after bad.

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Mick Haller
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Re: Where do contract / temp attorneys come from?

Postby Mick Haller » Thu Jul 21, 2011 3:11 pm

I never said take the bar exam in Kansas. Find something else dude. How do you remain committed to the legal profession despite your years of failure? You can retrain for a new field through a local state school extension or something.

But I think we've finally gotten to the root of your issue -- you don't want to find a dead end desk job making 30-40k because you think "it's all going to go to servicing your debt anyway so what's the point?" Are they seriously going to take more than 50% of your paycheck leaving you nothing to pay for food, heat, transportation? I am not familiar with the Federal Debt Collections act you speak of, but I highly doubt it. Every time I've heard of someone deeply in debt (with hospital bills, etc.) the two parties agree on a payment plan that is usually more like 25-30% of their paycheck. And we have not even discussed IBR, which may not be available to you, but should be available to some of us.

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Borhas
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Re: Where do contract / temp attorneys come from?

Postby Borhas » Thu Jul 21, 2011 3:13 pm

Mick Haller wrote:
Borhas wrote:life is not that simple


For many people, you are correct. We often get hitched to a particular location for family or financial reasons. But what drives a person to stick with a particular profession in a particular location despite years of failure and tens of thousands of fruitless applications? You've got to find some way to adapt within your circumstances.


oh yes, abandoning the profession may be wise, irrational cognitive dissonance may push some to keep trying or else it would all be in vane...

but moving costs money and it means uprooting... that is not so irrational to resist




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