CLS 3.2-3.3 Potential Bid List Forum

[timbs4339]

Firms like Akin, Dewey, Fried Frank, Ropes, Paul Hastings, White and Case, Shearman, all hire down to median or below and have bigger summer classes than V75s. Mass mail, definitely.

OP here. Regarding Akin, I didn't include them because i noticed that they gave out 19 offers last year but only one person accepted, which made me think that they only gave offers to people with really high GPAs who then turned them down for better firms. Do you think it's still worth including them?

Yes, those are the firms you should be on the lookout not to include or to bid low. But don't feel trapped by the Vault rankings, I know firms as high as V20-V10 gave callbacks and offers to non-Stone scholars.

Curious about this too. Like Akin, there is a number of firms that accepted a good/decent number of students w/ barely any, maybe no, takers, and low % of Honors (i.e. Kaye Scholer, Hughes NY, Shearman, Clifford, Baker, Pillsbury). Were they overreacting to a perceive upturn in the economy or thought that they could be more selective in the current market, and how do you think they will react at this year's EIP.

Somewhat side question, I am interested in Haynes and Boone, but the numbers provided are not specific for which office accepted students. Any info would be helpful, even though prolly won't bid them.

I know one of those firms actually went back to OCS and asked to see more resumes. I guess they weren't as in-demand as they thought. I do think the firms got greedy, and seemed to have missed the memo that some of the top firms were bumping summer classes and this would mean less scholars were in play. Will they do this again, who knows? I don't think so because these firms tend to have hiring targets out of CLS.

Why they really care about such fine GPA distinctions in the first place still astounds me. You'd think no firm would be unable to hit their hiring targets in this market, but lo and behold, some of them manage to do it. Too bad JD Match is a scam, because it would be a much better system that what we have now.

[huckabees]

Would anyone be able to PM me the honors offer list (doesn't have to be exact percentages, just for example, firms that give offers to >80% to stone, >50% stone, etc). I need to avoid these firms due to my GPA. There's no way to go to the office for those of us working outside of the city and Career Services won't post it or even hand us hardcopies, which is ridiculous. It's really hard to tell the selectivity of the firms past V10-V15.

Same here? Thanks in advance.

[chinny123]

Would anyone be able to PM me the honors offer list (doesn't have to be exact percentages, just for example, firms that give offers to >80% to stone, >50% stone, etc). I need to avoid these firms due to my GPA. There's no way to go to the office for those of us working outside of the city and Career Services won't post it or even hand us hardcopies, which is ridiculous. It's really hard to tell the selectivity of the firms past V10-V15.

Same here? Thanks in advance.

If anyone has it and could send it to me as well, that would be great. I find it ridiculous that OCS didn't think to change their hours, considering everyone is working during the times they are open.

[Anonymous User]

Don't mean to hijack, but how should this list change with 6 years of solid work experience and a Master's Degree in a marketable field. Not OP, but just curious as to how others would adjust the list with those two new factors.

[timbs4339]

Don't mean to hijack, but how should this list change with 6 years of solid work experience and a Master's Degree in a marketable field. Not OP, but just curious as to how others would adjust the list with those two new factors.

If the degree is in IP, it would change the calculus a lot. You'd be able to bid on the IP boutiques that pay market, as well as the V15 firms that do a lot of IP work.

If the degree and WE is in finance/economics, I would go ahead and include 4-5 V10s (plus Debevoise, K+E, and P+W coporate I know is looking for people) near the bottom of the list, like STB and Cleary. The firms at the bottom of OPs list are likely to be overbid and OP probably won't get them as screeners. So feel free to overreach with your background.

[Anonymous User]

OP here.....finally got my last grade....GPA is 3.28.....A-, B+, B+, B+, B+, B, B (in case it matters)

Here is my revised bid list (in order) - what do you guys think, particularly about the order?


Ropes & Gray
Cahill Gordon & Reindel
Schulte Roth & Zabel
Milbank Tweed Hadley & McCloy
MoFo
Hughes Hubbard & Reed
Fried Frank Harris Shriver & Jacobson
Cadwalader Wickersham & Taft
Kasowitz Benson Torres & Friedman
Latham & Watkins
Kirkland & Ellis
Dechert
Proskauer Rose
Sidley Austin
Kramer Levin Naftalis & Frankel
White & Case
Stroock Stroock & Lavan
Jones Day
Dewey & LeBouef
Morgan Lewis & Bockius
Chadbourne & Parke
Cleary Gottlieb Steen & Hamilton
Winston & Strawn
Brown Rudnick
Akin Gump
Paul Hastings
O'Melveny & Myers
clifford chance
Linklaters
Shearman

[Anonymous User]

bump for last post - anyone?

[timbs4339]

Great bidlist for CLS median. You could probably throw Paul Weiss or Debevoise down in the last 5 somewhere. But other than that these are the firms I'd target.

[Anonymous User]

Kind of a tangent here, but for those at median, does it matter what distribution of the grades are? Seems like the OP has a pretty good distribution (e.g., what you'd expect for a median student). But what about those who have only B+s and Bs but no A-range grades, or A-range grades combined with B-s, or A-range grades combined with only Bs?

Do employers care or will they only care about what our cumulative GPA is?

[Anonymous User]

OP here.....finally got my last grade....GPA is 3.28.....A-, B+, B+, B+, B+, B, B (in case it matters)

Here is my revised bid list (in order) - what do you guys think, particularly about the order?


Ropes & Gray
Cahill Gordon & Reindel
Schulte Roth & Zabel
Milbank Tweed Hadley & McCloy
MoFo
Hughes Hubbard & Reed
Fried Frank Harris Shriver & Jacobson
Cadwalader Wickersham & Taft
Kasowitz Benson Torres & Friedman
Latham & Watkins
Kirkland & Ellis
Dechert
Proskauer Rose
Sidley Austin
Kramer Levin Naftalis & Frankel
White & Case
Stroock Stroock & Lavan
Jones Day
Dewey & LeBouef
Morgan Lewis & Bockius
Chadbourne & Parke
Cleary Gottlieb Steen & Hamilton
Winston & Strawn
Brown Rudnick
Akin Gump
Paul Hastings
O'Melveny & Myers
Clifford Chance
Linklaters
Shearman

This has been touched on somewhat in this thread, but how does this list mesh with someone with a 3.13, (all Bs except for on B+ and one A-)? A 3.13 seems like a much different situation than a 3.28, right? How realistic is a shot at BigLaw at this point? FYI, a 3.13 is above bottom 1/4, but not quite out of bottom 1/3, I believe. Thanks in advance...

[CG614]

Great bidlist for CLS median. You could probably throw Paul Weiss or Debevoise down in the last 5 somewhere. But other than that these are the firms I'd target.

What is median? Anyone know? I thought it was 3.2 or so.

[Anonymous User]

^
i've seen a lot of different numbers, but all of them were higher than 3.2, unfortunately.

[Anonymous User]

I think I've seen around 3.25-3.28 as median.

[somewhatwayward]

This has been touched on somewhat in this thread, but how does this list mesh with someone with a 3.13, (all Bs except for on B+ and one A-)? A 3.13 seems like a much different situation than a 3.28, right? How realistic is a shot at BigLaw at this point? FYI, a 3.13 is above bottom 1/4, but not quite out of bottom 1/3, I believe. Thanks in advance...

I am also wondering about this....how different is, like, a 3.15 from a 3.28 in terms of EIP prospects? Everyone says the big thing is Stone/not Stone and after that it doesn't matter.

[Anonymous User]

This has been touched on somewhat in this thread, but how does this list mesh with someone with a 3.13, (all Bs except for on B+ and one A-)? A 3.13 seems like a much different situation than a 3.28, right? How realistic is a shot at BigLaw at this point? FYI, a 3.13 is above bottom 1/4, but not quite out of bottom 1/3, I believe. Thanks in advance...

I am also wondering about this....how different is, like, a 3.15 from a 3.28 in terms of EIP prospects? Everyone says the big thing is Stone/not Stone and after that it doesn't matter.

I heard after Stone, it's the next 1/3 (so top 2/3)... but that at or above median is also useful as a guide.

[Anonymous User]

This has been touched on somewhat in this thread, but how does this list mesh with someone with a 3.13, (all Bs except for on B+ and one A-)? A 3.13 seems like a much different situation than a 3.28, right? How realistic is a shot at BigLaw at this point? FYI, a 3.13 is above bottom 1/4, but not quite out of bottom 1/3, I believe. Thanks in advance...

I am also wondering about this....how different is, like, a 3.15 from a 3.28 in terms of EIP prospects? Everyone says the big thing is Stone/not Stone and after that it doesn't matter.

When you get down to median or below, all lot of other variables start to matter. Work experience, personality (are you one of the few people in the class that can make any interviewer automatically like you), are probably two of the most important.

Nobody knows how firms deal with GPAs below Stone (or GPA within Stone). Some may have the HR reps bust out the calculator. Others may use a "first impression" type of thing. It would be interesting to do a statistical analysis of those firms and figure out whether it's better to have some A range grades and many Bs or consistent B+ grades (it might even just depend on the personal preference of the recruiter). For those firms grades still matter. Others may have no grade cutoff, or say no B-s or something. This is all information OCS should have for you, but sorry guys that's not how they roll. You just have to bid a certain "type" of firm and hope enough of them have low grade cutoffs.

Right now, the only variables you can control are your bidding strategy and how hard you hustle. The OPs list, with the exception of Cleary, looks pretty good. But anyone with a 3.1X or even 3.2X should be mass mailing starting in late July/early August. They should be on add/drop hustling to pick up firms. They should be at every hospitality suite handing out resumes (even Cravath or S+C).

[Anonymous User]

How will firms look at someone who is just below Stone, but with a B- on the transcript (i.e., other grades balance everything out to about a B+ average)? Is a bid list that includes firms between V8-V40 (so, like Weil/Cleary down to Freshfields or something, with most bids clustered between like V15 and V25) a bad idea? Any firms to leave off the list that might balk?

Edit: GPA is slightly above B+, if that makes a difference.

[Anonymous User]

OP here. I had a phone call with career services, and the guy basically told me that I am definitely going to get an offer. Are they just really positive?

[timbs4339]

OP here. I had a phone call with career services, and the guy basically told me that I am definitely going to get an offer. Are they just really positive?

They told me the same thing. I struck out with a GPA a bit over 3.2. Granted I bid on a secondary market, but it's possible.

I think many career services departments think part of their job is to boost students' confidence going into OCI, so they don't stress that some people will ultimately strike out, and among medianish students that proportion will probably be higher than 1/3. That's great, and I definitely see how lack of confidence could have an effect on interviewing skills, except it stops at-risk students from going out and doing the things (mass mailing, add/drop) that will increase their chances of getting a firm job.

[Anonymous User]

OP here. I had a phone call with career services, and the guy basically told me that I am definitely going to get an offer. Are they just really positive?

They told me the same thing. I struck out with a GPA a bit over 3.2. Granted I bid on a secondary market, but it's possible.

Are you getting ready for 3L OCI or have you moved from the firm path and found alternative employment since then?

[timbs4339]

OP here. I had a phone call with career services, and the guy basically told me that I am definitely going to get an offer. Are they just really positive?

They told me the same thing. I struck out with a GPA a bit over 3.2. Granted I bid on a secondary market, but it's possible.

Are you getting ready for 3L OCI or have you moved from the firm path and found alternative employment since then?

I'm working for the gov't this summer but there's very little chance of a permanent offer. I'm going to try 3L OCI but chances don't look great. The competition is fierce and there are very few firms that are coming and we know are serious about hiring 3Ls. I'm also searching clerkships, fed gov, everything. But there is a non-negligible chance I could end up living in my parents basement after graduation when the loan money runs out.

I hate to scare you, but striking out at OCI is seriously hell. It's why I post on this forum so much now. I don't want other people to go through the same crap I did all because they made bidding mistakes that nobody caught for them.

[Anonymous User]

This has been touched on somewhat in this thread, but how does this list mesh with someone with a 3.13, (all Bs except for on B+ and one A-)? A 3.13 seems like a much different situation than a 3.28, right? How realistic is a shot at BigLaw at this point? FYI, a 3.13 is above bottom 1/4, but not quite out of bottom 1/3, I believe. Thanks in advance...

I am also wondering about this....how different is, like, a 3.15 from a 3.28 in terms of EIP prospects? Everyone says the big thing is Stone/not Stone and after that it doesn't matter.

When you get down to median or below, all lot of other variables start to matter. Work experience, personality (are you one of the few people in the class that can make any interviewer automatically like you), are probably two of the most important.

Nobody knows how firms deal with GPAs below Stone (or GPA within Stone). Some may have the HR reps bust out the calculator. Others may use a "first impression" type of thing. It would be interesting to do a statistical analysis of those firms and figure out whether it's better to have some A range grades and many Bs or consistent B+ grades (it might even just depend on the personal preference of the recruiter). For those firms grades still matter. Others may have no grade cutoff, or say no B-s or something. This is all information OCS should have for you, but sorry guys that's not how they roll. You just have to bid a certain "type" of firm and hope enough of them have low grade cutoffs.

Right now, the only variables you can control are your bidding strategy and how hard you hustle. The OPs list, with the exception of Cleary, looks pretty good. But anyone with a 3.1X or even 3.2X should be mass mailing starting in late July/early August. They should be on add/drop hustling to pick up firms. They should be at every hospitality suite handing out resumes (even Cravath or S+C).

Seems like solid advice, thanks. Just curious, did this strategy work for you, or were you in a different position? Timbs and others have provided some great insight into the process and how to enhance one's chances, but is there anyone out there that can comment on/share an actual success story coming from, say, a 3.15? Again, thanks for all the tips so far.

[Anonymous User]

Hey all thanks for the tips/ advice they've definitely useful. Just had two quick questions if anyone can help.

First, for us people below median it seems like mass mailing is necessary. What exactly should we do and expect from this? Do you send semi-targeted letters to a bunch of NYC firms and 2ndary firms that you don't bid on before August and they might contact you for emails outside of OCI?

Also secondly, what exactly constitutes good interviewing or do any of you have tips for standing out from the rest of the median/ below median students? Thanks for the help!

[Anonymous User]

Does anyone know (1) what % of median students got offers last year, and (2) which firms they typically got (I know there is no "typical" firm here, but maybe a list of 5-10 or so firms who took a lot of median people would be helpful).

Thanks

[timbs4339]

Hey all thanks for the tips/ advice they've definitely useful. Just had two quick questions if anyone can help.

First, for us people below median it seems like mass mailing is necessary. What exactly should we do and expect from this? Do you send semi-targeted letters to a bunch of NYC firms and 2ndary firms that you don't bid on before August and they might contact you for emails outside of OCI?

Also secondly, what exactly constitutes good interviewing or do any of you have tips for standing out from the rest of the median/ below median students? Thanks for the help!

1) They might contact you before OCI. They might do it after if they miss their hiring targets. NYC firms are probably your best bet in that department as it costs them almost nothing to bring in more CLS or NYU students if they don't get the class size they want. They might not contact you at all.

Another good reason to do it is that it makes you a little hungrier knowing you are going all out to find a job. OCS tries to instill a laid back, you'll be fine mentality that is just not what below median students need ITE.

Good interviewing is really fucking hard to do because the window is so short and the conversations basically follow the same pattern- they ask you about stuff on your resume, you give them your speech about what you did during 1L summer/before law school, they ask you if you have any questions about the firm, you ask 2-3 generic questions, you shoot the shit for a while. You'll see what I mean when you do a few interviews and realize it's not intimidating- it's just sort of a burden. Often they'll ask you about the first thing on your resume which probably means they haven't read it.

That said, there are a few people who are just naturally likeable and sociable and probably get callbacks way above their grades. I happen to think this isn't really something you can develop in the space of a few months or even a year, and has a lot to do with appearance, nonverbal communication, etc.

I would say I had maybe 7-8 really good conversations out of the 30 interviews I did. These really went outside the boundaries of the typical paradigm I mentioned above. I only got 4 callbacks but all of these callbacks came from the really good conversations. What helped was being the best version of myself, not trying to act like the "median law student" personality. To put it another way, I was actively trying to get the callback as opposed to not trying to screw everything up. When this happens, you'll click with some attorneys and won't with others. But if your grades wouldn't be high enough to get you a callback anyway, what do you have to lose?