UVa OGI 2011 thread

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vamedic03
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Re: UVa OGI 2011 thread

Postby vamedic03 » Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:15 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Since our career services transcripts do not list our GPAs, nor liss the actual GPA equivalents of the grades, does anyone have any idea what law firms do for students that do not have their GPA listed? Do they know that an A+ is a 4.3, and an A- a 3.7 (instead of a 3.66). Do they ballpark it? Just something that came to my mind, because CSO said that the career services transcript is all they get.

Thanks.


Doesn't matter. Firms hire within grade ranges - either you're within range for their UVA preferences or your not.

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Re: UVa OGI 2011 thread

Postby vamedic03 » Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:17 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Do we have to use all of our bids?


Regardless of your GPA you should use every single bid.

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Re: UVa OGI 2011 thread

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:32 pm

vamedic03 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Since our career services transcripts do not list our GPAs, nor liss the actual GPA equivalents of the grades, does anyone have any idea what law firms do for students that do not have their GPA listed? Do they know that an A+ is a 4.3, and an A- a 3.7 (instead of a 3.66). Do they ballpark it? Just something that came to my mind, because CSO said that the career services transcript is all they get.

Thanks.


Doesn't matter. Firms hire within grade ranges - either you're within range for their UVA preferences or your not.


(Different Anon)

Yeah, but I think the question was, how do they actually figure out whether you are in their range or not? I mean, do they actually have somebody go through and calculate every transcript's GPA? That would be pretty tedious.

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Re: UVa OGI 2011 thread

Postby thesealocust » Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:36 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Yeah, but I think the question was, how do they actually figure out whether you are in their range or not? I mean, do they actually have somebody go through and calculate every transcript's GPA? That would be pretty tedious.


Yes, they do. Recruiting staff.

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Re: UVa OGI 2011 thread

Postby bgdddymtty » Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:39 pm

desertlaw wrote:Somewhere in the OGI info packet, it said that multiple bids for different offices at 1 firm, only counted as 1 bid.

But Symplicity doesn't seem to recognize this because you only have 50 bids and it won't let you do something like Bid #23A, 23B, 23C.

Any thoughts on how to handle this?
I thought you were mistaken about this, but I went back and checked the handbook and you are absolutely right. Anyone with an idea on what the deal be here? If none of our senior brethren have an answer, I'll stop by CSO tomorrow and ask.

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Re: UVa OGI 2011 thread

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:48 pm

thesealocust wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Yeah, but I think the question was, how do they actually figure out whether you are in their range or not? I mean, do they actually have somebody go through and calculate every transcript's GPA? That would be pretty tedious.


Yes, they do. Recruiting staff.


This seems silly. Why don't the transcripts just have a GPA listed, then? What benefit is there gained by leaving it off? The hope that some employers won't calculate GPAs for those with less-than-stellar grades and hire them anyway?

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Re: UVa OGI 2011 thread

Postby thesealocust » Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:55 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
thesealocust wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Yeah, but I think the question was, how do they actually figure out whether you are in their range or not? I mean, do they actually have somebody go through and calculate every transcript's GPA? That would be pretty tedious.


Yes, they do. Recruiting staff.


This seems silly. Why don't the transcripts just have a GPA listed, then? What benefit is there gained by leaving it off? The hope that some employers won't calculate GPAs for those with less-than-stellar grades and hire them anyway?


Yes.

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Re: UVa OGI 2011 thread

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jun 23, 2011 12:06 am

Anon here again with question about multiple city bids.


Wouldn't for a few firms (like 1-2), make sense to bid their NYC and their (hometown or other large market) office if you are legitimately interested in both. Then let the firm decide which office they'd rather interview you for?

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Re: UVa OGI 2011 thread

Postby thesealocust » Thu Jun 23, 2011 12:09 am

Anonymous User wrote:Anon here again with question about multiple city bids.


Wouldn't for a few firms (like 1-2), make sense to bid their NYC and their (hometown or other large market) office if you are legitimately interested in both. Then let the firm decide which office they'd rather interview you for?


I'm sure reasonable people can disagree on this point, but I see zero upside. You really, honestly, can only be in one place at any given time. Skadden DC and Skadden Chicago do completely different things for completely different clients in completely different cities. If, after all of that, you still have an interest in both, there are plenty of firms you can bid on to spread yourself between the markets without having to hem and haw to Skadden.

I think decisiveness pays dividends here. Everyone should be looking for the one place that they want to work, and bidding on two offices of the same firm isn't moving you in that direction. Some firms allow it, some will even let you split, but even if it doesn't blow up in your face I don't see how it ever helps you.

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Re: UVa OGI 2011 thread

Postby joeshmo39 » Thu Jun 23, 2011 12:33 am

Anonymous User wrote:This thread was made to share info about OGI, I don't understand why one cannot list those firms.


--ImageRemoved--

"Oh, hello, Buster. Here’s grade range info. No, I’m withholding it. Look at me, 'getting off.'

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Re: UVa OGI 2011 thread

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jun 23, 2011 3:19 am

Does the above advice about multiple bids to one firm but many offices...

Also apply to bidding Orange County & LA ..... or..... San Fran and Silicon Valley.

2 offices very nearby. Is that different than bidding on the San Fran office and the NYC office? Or does it still look bad?

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Re: UVa OGI 2011 thread

Postby thesealocust » Thu Jun 23, 2011 7:45 am

Anonymous User wrote:Does the above advice about multiple bids to one firm but many offices...

Also apply to bidding Orange County & LA ..... or..... San Fran and Silicon Valley.

2 offices very nearby. Is that different than bidding on the San Fran office and the NYC office? Or does it still look bad?


It's not so much that it looks bad, it's that it doesn't help you. Hogan has a NoVA office and a DC office, but they do different things and because only one of you exists, you can only work at one of the offices. Wanting to bid on both I believe stems from the 'gotta catch 'em all' mentality everyone struggles with during OGI. You're just not improving your chances of getting a job by bidding on an SF and an SV office of the same firm. It might feel like hedging, but the firm isn't evaluating you in vacuum and ignoring its other offices (with some possible exceptions - I'd believe that some Skadden offices are totally separate, as indicated above).

This is much like the temptation to walk into the process telling people you'd work in any practice in any region. That might FEEL like a decision that would enhance your odds of getting an offer, but in actuality firms are looking for people who have done some thinking and have a narrow goal that matches the firm. There aren't many places that do tax lobbying, but if you focus on the firms that do you'll be taken seriously while if you wander in because you managed to score a bid and try to feign an interest while preparing for your interview with an IP litigation in Palo Alto 20 minutes later you won't be putting your best foot forward.

I firmly believe you don't have to walk into OGI knowing what you want to do, but the more you can narrow it down and explore specific small differences the better. And even then, I don't think you stand to gain much by letting a firm see your indecisiveness. I only interviewed with Skadden NYC despite looking in DC a lot as well, because I figured there were plenty of firms in both markets to help spread my interest around while I figured out what I wanted.

I may be wrong about this, because I don't have a ton of data and the argument boils down to a lot of intangibles, so take it for what it's worth (an opinion of somebody who has thought about it a lot and wants to help, not gospel).

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Re: UVa OGI 2011 thread

Postby bgdddymtty » Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:02 am

thesealocust wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Does the above advice about multiple bids to one firm but many offices...

Also apply to bidding Orange County & LA ..... or..... San Fran and Silicon Valley.

2 offices very nearby. Is that different than bidding on the San Fran office and the NYC office? Or does it still look bad?


It's not so much that it looks bad, it's that it doesn't help you. Hogan has a NoVA office and a DC office, but they do different things and because only one of you exists, you can only work at one of the offices. Wanting to bid on both I believe stems from the 'gotta catch 'em all' mentality everyone struggles with during OGI. You're just not improving your chances of getting a job by bidding on an SF and an SV office of the same firm. It might feel like hedging, but the firm isn't evaluating you in vacuum and ignoring its other offices (with some possible exceptions - I'd believe that some Skadden offices are totally separate, as indicated above).

This is much like the temptation to walk into the process telling people you'd work in any practice in any region. That might FEEL like a decision that would enhance your odds of getting an offer, but in actuality firms are looking for people who have done some thinking and have a narrow goal that matches the firm. There aren't many places that do tax lobbying, but if you focus on the firms that do you'll be taken seriously while if you wander in because you managed to score a bid and try to feign an interest while preparing for your interview with an IP litigation in Palo Alto 20 minutes later you won't be putting your best foot forward.

I firmly believe you don't have to walk into OGI knowing what you want to do, but the more you can narrow it down and explore specific small differences the better. And even then, I don't think you stand to gain much by letting a firm see your indecisiveness. I only interviewed with Skadden NYC despite looking in DC a lot as well, because I figured there were plenty of firms in both markets to help spread my interest around while I figured out what I wanted.

I may be wrong about this, because I don't have a ton of data and the argument boils down to a lot of intangibles, so take it for what it's worth (an opinion of somebody who has thought about it a lot and wants to help, not gospel).
I'm intrigued by this. I get that a lot of being able to land a SA position rests on being able to present a compelling narrative of why you are a good fit, long-term, for that office of that firm (and vice versa). But inasmuch as having 50 bids means that one is likely to bid on a variety of different locations, types of firms, etc., it seems that the only way in which bidding on multiple offices of the same firm would hurt one's chances would be if the firm looked at a student's multiple bids (either when granting interviews or when considering callbacks/offers) and thought, "Look at this. This guy bid on us in NYC, Atlanta, and LA. He obviously has no idea of where he wants to be or what he wants to do." This seems especially true since, while you're allowed to bid on multiple offices of a single firm, you're only allowed to interview with one of them. Do we have any evidence that this actually happens, and that it happens enough to offset the advantage gained by casting a wider net? And am I missing some component of the equation?

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Re: UVa OGI 2011 thread

Postby swinger » Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:47 am

bgdddymtty wrote:
thesealocust wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Does the above advice about multiple bids to one firm but many offices...

Also apply to bidding Orange County & LA ..... or..... San Fran and Silicon Valley.

2 offices very nearby. Is that different than bidding on the San Fran office and the NYC office? Or does it still look bad?


It's not so much that it looks bad, it's that it doesn't help you. Hogan has a NoVA office and a DC office, but they do different things and because only one of you exists, you can only work at one of the offices. Wanting to bid on both I believe stems from the 'gotta catch 'em all' mentality everyone struggles with during OGI. You're just not improving your chances of getting a job by bidding on an SF and an SV office of the same firm. It might feel like hedging, but the firm isn't evaluating you in vacuum and ignoring its other offices (with some possible exceptions - I'd believe that some Skadden offices are totally separate, as indicated above).

This is much like the temptation to walk into the process telling people you'd work in any practice in any region. That might FEEL like a decision that would enhance your odds of getting an offer, but in actuality firms are looking for people who have done some thinking and have a narrow goal that matches the firm. There aren't many places that do tax lobbying, but if you focus on the firms that do you'll be taken seriously while if you wander in because you managed to score a bid and try to feign an interest while preparing for your interview with an IP litigation in Palo Alto 20 minutes later you won't be putting your best foot forward.

I firmly believe you don't have to walk into OGI knowing what you want to do, but the more you can narrow it down and explore specific small differences the better. And even then, I don't think you stand to gain much by letting a firm see your indecisiveness. I only interviewed with Skadden NYC despite looking in DC a lot as well, because I figured there were plenty of firms in both markets to help spread my interest around while I figured out what I wanted.

I may be wrong about this, because I don't have a ton of data and the argument boils down to a lot of intangibles, so take it for what it's worth (an opinion of somebody who has thought about it a lot and wants to help, not gospel).
I'm intrigued by this. I get that a lot of being able to land a SA position rests on being able to present a compelling narrative of why you are a good fit, long-term, for that office of that firm (and vice versa). But inasmuch as having 50 bids means that one is likely to bid on a variety of different locations, types of firms, etc., it seems that the only way in which bidding on multiple offices of the same firm would hurt one's chances would be if the firm looked at a student's multiple bids (either when granting interviews or when considering callbacks/offers) and thought, "Look at this. This guy bid on us in NYC, Atlanta, and LA. He obviously has no idea of where he wants to be or what he wants to do." This seems especially true since, while you're allowed to bid on multiple offices of a single firm, you're only allowed to interview with one of them. Do we have any evidence that this actually happens, and that it happens enough to offset the advantage gained by casting a wider net? And am I missing some component of the equation?



I might also be missing something, but I thought it seemed like a good play for someone who has multiple interests in terms of field and location. Say, for example, someone is interested in Firm ABC. This person is interested in fields X and Y and would be happy to work in NYC or DC. Firm ABC is interviewing at OGI for NYC and DC. A large part of ABC's X practice takes place in DC, while the Y practice is either heavily concentrated in NYC or split among both equally. Why would it not be beneficial to bid on both locations, and when interviewing express your interest in X, stating that you know it mostly handled in DC but that you are also very interested in Y. This way, if X practice area in DC is already full or if DC in general is already full, they know that they have a candidate for NYC as well. If the candidate didnt bid on NYC they wouldnt be considered for this spot, right?

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Re: UVa OGI 2011 thread

Postby uvahooo » Fri Jun 24, 2011 8:47 pm

Are you guys mailing your stuff out to firms or emailing?

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Re: UVa OGI 2011 thread

Postby desertlaw » Sat Jun 25, 2011 11:44 am

I e-mailed about 30 firms last week in SoCal. Heard back from like 2-3 saying "thanks, we start reviewing at end of summer."

I am beginning to think I sent my stuff too early? But maybe in a month I'll re-e-mail and tell them to look at me again.

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Re: UVa OGI 2011 thread

Postby thesealocust » Sat Jun 25, 2011 12:08 pm

desertlaw: Don't re-email them. They're a business, they might take months to get back to you but they won't forget and don't need to be pestered. It might be too early for them to make decisions, but it's not horrifically too early to have your materials infront of them.

uvahoo: open question, neither is inherently superior or inferior. I have personally done high quality (9 x 12 envelopes and slightly thicker paper, not parchment or anything) mailings for judges and targeted firm applications (last year I sent 5). Anything over that and I'd recommend emailing - for the most part the person who receives your documents needs to get them in electronic form for filing anyway. But even if you were doing a small number I'm sure email would be OK most places, and even if you need to do 100 mail won't hurt you.

I think the one tangible difference is that email might actually wind up in the wrong place. If you happen to find an email of a recruiter who just left, for example, whereas if you mail it in I'd have more faith in humans with an envelope in their hand properly redirecting it. But even my intuition there could be wrong.

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Re: UVa OGI 2011 thread

Postby Doritos » Sat Jun 25, 2011 12:31 pm

thesealocust wrote:desertlaw: Don't re-email them. They're a business, they might take months to get back to you but they won't forget and don't need to be pestered. It might be too early for them to make decisions, but it's not horrifically too early to have your materials infront of them.

uvahoo: open question, neither is inherently superior or inferior. I have personally done high quality (9 x 12 envelopes and slightly thicker paper, not parchment or anything) mailings for judges and targeted firm applications (last year I sent 5). Anything over that and I'd recommend emailing - for the most part the person who receives your documents needs to get them in electronic form for filing anyway. But even if you were doing a small number I'm sure email would be OK most places, and even if you need to do 100 mail won't hurt you.

I think the one tangible difference is that email might actually wind up in the wrong place. If you happen to find an email of a recruiter who just left, for example, whereas if you mail it in I'd have more faith in humans with an envelope in their hand properly redirecting it. But even my intuition there could be wrong.


When you did those targeted mailings did you also email? Like send your stuff via email and say that you also mailed your materials?

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Re: UVa OGI 2011 thread

Postby thesealocust » Sat Jun 25, 2011 12:35 pm

No, that would just annoy the recruiters.

For some firms I got rejections like 3 months later with an apology for the delay, but you really can rely on the U.S. Postal service + the mail room and recruiting departments of a major professional business to take care of you.

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Re: UVa OGI 2011 thread

Postby Doritos » Sat Jun 25, 2011 12:38 pm

Thanks.

Follow up question. What should one do about the firms that come to OGI but you did not bid on? I mean you only a finite number of bids so its plausible that there are firms that you are interested in but didn't make the bid cut. Whats your opinion on mailing your materials to a firm like that? Do you think the firm will just think you arent interested enough because you didnt bid on them? Obviously the best thing you can do is try and get slotted into an interview via those hospitality suites or catch an interviewer in between interviews but if you cant do that is mailing that firm worth it?

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Re: UVa OGI 2011 thread

Postby thesealocust » Sat Jun 25, 2011 12:45 pm

I don't think firms would look favorably on that. You can try to get interviews at hospitality suites, via special requests, filling in when people drop out, or even getting in at the end of the day - but realistically, if you fail to get an interview at any given firm at OGI, it's sending them a signal that you either didn't make their pre-screen OR there were 50 other firms you would rather talk to. I'm not sure you'd be met with much success, particularly because standard operating procedure for mass mailing is to get invited straight to a callback-like interview on the firm's dime. Why would they pay your way for a long day of interviews if you couldn't even find a way to speak to them when they sent representatives to the school?

I'm not saying it could never work, but it's pretty far outside of protocol to try and get a job with firms that you failed - for whatever reason - to interview with while they were on grounds.

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Re: UVa OGI 2011 thread

Postby RVP11 » Sat Jun 25, 2011 12:50 pm

Plenty of people got callbacks from firms where they bid all of their Southern California offices (for example, firms like Gibson, OMM, Latham). None of the interviewers seemed bothered by it, but in the interview they do like to narrow you down to which office you want most. Bidding both the LA and OC office of a firm is MUCH different than bidding on two offices in completely different markets like LA and NY.
Last edited by RVP11 on Sat Jun 25, 2011 12:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: UVa OGI 2011 thread

Postby RVP11 » Sat Jun 25, 2011 12:53 pm

thesealocust wrote:I don't think firms would look favorably on that. You can try to get interviews at hospitality suites, via special requests, filling in when people drop out, or even getting in at the end of the day - but realistically, if you fail to get an interview at any given firm at OGI, it's sending them a signal that you either didn't make their pre-screen OR there were 50 other firms you would rather talk to. I'm not sure you'd be met with much success, particularly because standard operating procedure for mass mailing is to get invited straight to a callback-like interview on the firm's dime. Why would they pay your way for a long day of interviews if you couldn't even find a way to speak to them when they sent representatives to the school?

I'm not saying it could never work, but it's pretty far outside of protocol to try and get a job with firms that you failed - for whatever reason - to interview with while they were on grounds.


But what you're not accounting for is that, with many firms, the folks doing the interviewing (who get to distribute the callbacks) are not the same as those who did the preselections, and they might have much different hiring criteria. A special request can get your resume in front of someone who matters than the recruiting staff.

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Re: UVa OGI 2011 thread

Postby thesealocust » Sat Jun 25, 2011 12:54 pm

RVP11 wrote:
thesealocust wrote:I don't think firms would look favorably on that. You can try to get interviews at hospitality suites, via special requests, filling in when people drop out, or even getting in at the end of the day - but realistically, if you fail to get an interview at any given firm at OGI, it's sending them a signal that you either didn't make their pre-screen OR there were 50 other firms you would rather talk to. I'm not sure you'd be met with much success, particularly because standard operating procedure for mass mailing is to get invited straight to a callback-like interview on the firm's dime. Why would they pay your way for a long day of interviews if you couldn't even find a way to speak to them when they sent representatives to the school?

I'm not saying it could never work, but it's pretty far outside of protocol to try and get a job with firms that you failed - for whatever reason - to interview with while they were on grounds.


But what you're not accounting for is that, with many firms, the folks doing the interviewing (who get to distribute the callbacks) are not the same as those who did the preselections, and they might have much different hiring criteria. A special request can get your resume in front of someone who matters than the recruiting staff.


Maybe you're reading me wrong or maybe I typed wrong - I think special requests are the shit and would encourage everyone to make extensive use of them. What I'd either caution against or not be optimistic about would be attempting to get an interview with a firm after failing to do so at OGI.

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Re: UVa OGI 2011 thread

Postby RVP11 » Sat Jun 25, 2011 1:18 pm

thesealocust wrote:
RVP11 wrote:
thesealocust wrote:I don't think firms would look favorably on that. You can try to get interviews at hospitality suites, via special requests, filling in when people drop out, or even getting in at the end of the day - but realistically, if you fail to get an interview at any given firm at OGI, it's sending them a signal that you either didn't make their pre-screen OR there were 50 other firms you would rather talk to. I'm not sure you'd be met with much success, particularly because standard operating procedure for mass mailing is to get invited straight to a callback-like interview on the firm's dime. Why would they pay your way for a long day of interviews if you couldn't even find a way to speak to them when they sent representatives to the school?

I'm not saying it could never work, but it's pretty far outside of protocol to try and get a job with firms that you failed - for whatever reason - to interview with while they were on grounds.


But what you're not accounting for is that, with many firms, the folks doing the interviewing (who get to distribute the callbacks) are not the same as those who did the preselections, and they might have much different hiring criteria. A special request can get your resume in front of someone who matters than the recruiting staff.


Maybe you're reading me wrong or maybe I typed wrong - I think special requests are the shit and would encourage everyone to make extensive use of them. What I'd either caution against or not be optimistic about would be attempting to get an interview with a firm after failing to do so at OGI.


RC fail on my part.

Hey guyz: special request the crap out of every firm you want to interview with. It works.




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