UVa OGI 2011 thread

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Re: UVa OGI 2011 thread

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Aug 08, 2011 12:21 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I had nothing from preselects/alternates, and I got between 5 and 8 from the lottery. Shit, Donovan's email had put me at ease and now I feel completely fucked.


Stats?

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Re: UVa OGI 2011 thread

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Aug 08, 2011 12:22 pm

If I have 20 interviews, should I expect to get a job?? Most of my interviews are in secondary markets

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Re: UVa OGI 2011 thread

Postby vanwinkle » Mon Aug 08, 2011 12:24 pm

Anonymous User wrote:If I have 20 interviews, should I expect to get a job?? Most of my interviews are in secondary markets

Are they markets you have ties to? How are your grades? Do you have any work experience?

You asked a pretty vague question. Without more info you'll likely only get pretty vague answers.

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Re: UVa OGI 2011 thread

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Aug 08, 2011 12:26 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:If I have 20 interviews, should I expect to get a job?? Most of my interviews are in secondary markets

Are they markets you have ties to? How are your grades? Do you have any work experience?

You asked a pretty vague question. Without more info you'll likely only get pretty vague answers.


20 interviews. All NYC. All firms, except one, were in the target to slight reach category (and that firm alt'd me), top 1/4 grades. No ties to NYC. 7/10 interviewer.

Am i getting a job?

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Re: UVa OGI 2011 thread

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Aug 08, 2011 12:27 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I had nothing from preselects/alternates, and I got between 5 and 8 from the lottery. Shit, Donovan's email had put me at ease and now I feel completely fucked.


Stats?


3.2 to 3.25.

I bid almost all NYC firms putting the ones with low GPA requirements and largest class sizes at the top. If the number of lottery interviews I received was better than average then I guess the bid strategy worked. It could also be the fact that I had 0 preselects which meant that all of my bids kept their weight.

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Re: UVa OGI 2011 thread

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Aug 08, 2011 12:36 pm

Anonymous User wrote:3.2 to 3.25.

I bid almost all NYC firms putting the ones with low GPA requirements and largest class sizes at the top. If the number of lottery interviews I received was better than average then I guess the bid strategy worked. It could also be the fact that I had 0 preselects which meant that all of my bids kept their weight.


Contrary to TLS group think, bidding heavily NYC was not the way to go. I would special request firms in your home region like mad.

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Re: UVa OGI 2011 thread

Postby RVP11 » Mon Aug 08, 2011 12:38 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:If I have 20 interviews, should I expect to get a job?? Most of my interviews are in secondary markets

Are they markets you have ties to? How are your grades? Do you have any work experience?

You asked a pretty vague question. Without more info you'll likely only get pretty vague answers.


20 interviews. All NYC. All firms, except one, were in the target to slight reach category (and that firm alt'd me), top 1/4 grades. No ties to NYC. 7/10 interviewer.

Am i getting a job?


If you really are a "7/10" interviewer, then you'll be fine.

But how do you know you're a 7/10 interviewer? Have you done OGI before?

People also have the tendency to overestimate their own interviewing ability. See: last year's TLS callback thread, with people writing things like "top 10% CCN, 25 interviews, 4 callbacks, 8/10 interviewing ability." LOL NOPE.
Last edited by RVP11 on Mon Aug 08, 2011 12:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: UVa OGI 2011 thread

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Aug 08, 2011 12:39 pm

RVP11 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:If I have 20 interviews, should I expect to get a job?? Most of my interviews are in secondary markets

Are they markets you have ties to? How are your grades? Do you have any work experience?

You asked a pretty vague question. Without more info you'll likely only get pretty vague answers.


20 interviews. All NYC. All firms, except one, were in the target to slight reach category (and that firm alt'd me), top 1/4 grades. No ties to NYC. 7/10 interviewer.

Am i getting a job?


If you really are a "7/10" interviewer, then you'll be fine.

But how do you know you're a 7/10 interviewer? Have you done OGI before?

People also have the tendency to overestimate their own interviewing ability. See: last year's TLS callback thread, with people writing things like "top 10% CCN, 25 interviews, 6 callbacks, 8/10 interviewing ability." LOL NOPE.


I interviewed with 10 firms as a 1L through OGI and other means and have talked to OCS who indicated to me i was a good interviewer. Does that count?

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Re: UVa OGI 2011 thread

Postby RVP11 » Mon Aug 08, 2011 12:41 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I interviewed with 10 firms as a 1L through OGI and other means and have talked to OCS who indicated to me i was a good interviewer. Does that count?


You're probably fine, then.

I'd just be hesitant to rate your interviewing ability until you see what you've actually pulled in 2L OGI.

How did you manage to get 10 1L OGI interviews with top quarter grades?

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Re: UVa OGI 2011 thread

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Aug 08, 2011 12:42 pm

RVP11 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I interviewed with 10 firms as a 1L through OGI and other means and have talked to OCS who indicated to me i was a good interviewer. Does that count?


You're probably fine, then.

I'd just be hesitant to rate your interviewing ability until you see what you've actually pulled in 2L OGI.

How did you manage to get 10 1L OGI interviews with top quarter grades?


Ties were good and grades were much better 1L fall. Plus i applied to like 300 firms.

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Re: UVa OGI 2011 thread

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Aug 08, 2011 12:48 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:If I have 20 interviews, should I expect to get a job?? Most of my interviews are in secondary markets

Are they markets you have ties to? How are your grades? Do you have any work experience?

You asked a pretty vague question. Without more info you'll likely only get pretty vague answers.


20 interviews. All NYC. All firms, except one, were in the target to slight reach category (and that firm alt'd me), top 1/4 grades. No ties to NYC. 7/10 interviewer.

Am i getting a job?


Interesting to see how different things shake out. Did you get all your interviews through preselects/alternates, or lottery too?

I'm at top 15% grades, 20 interviews, but I'd say at least a quarter of my interviews are with firms whose GPA averages I am well above. For whatever reason, a good chunk of my preselects were with the lower V100 and non-Vault NYC firms.

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Re: UVa OGI 2011 thread

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Aug 08, 2011 12:52 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:If I have 20 interviews, should I expect to get a job?? Most of my interviews are in secondary markets

Are they markets you have ties to? How are your grades? Do you have any work experience?

You asked a pretty vague question. Without more info you'll likely only get pretty vague answers.


20 interviews. All NYC. All firms, except one, were in the target to slight reach category (and that firm alt'd me), top 1/4 grades. No ties to NYC. 7/10 interviewer.

Am i getting a job?


Interesting to see how different things shake out. Did you get all your interviews through preselects/alternates, or lottery too?

I'm at top 15% grades, 20 interviews, but I'd say at least a quarter of my interviews are with firms whose GPA averages I am well above. For whatever reason, a good chunk of my preselects were with the lower V100 and non-Vault NYC firms.



I had 15 through preselect and alternate. Not sure how many of those alts were from lottery or not, but i suppose it doesn't really matter. 5 lotteries. Only missed on 2 out of 11 alternates. All firms are "within my range or small stretches" sans 2 V10.

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Re: UVa OGI 2011 thread

Postby Doritos » Mon Aug 08, 2011 12:54 pm

RVP11 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:If I have 20 interviews, should I expect to get a job?? Most of my interviews are in secondary markets

Are they markets you have ties to? How are your grades? Do you have any work experience?

You asked a pretty vague question. Without more info you'll likely only get pretty vague answers.


20 interviews. All NYC. All firms, except one, were in the target to slight reach category (and that firm alt'd me), top 1/4 grades. No ties to NYC. 7/10 interviewer.

Am i getting a job?


If you really are a "7/10" interviewer, then you'll be fine.

But how do you know you're a 7/10 interviewer? Have you done OGI before?

People also have the tendency to overestimate their own interviewing ability. See: last year's TLS callback thread, with people writing things like "top 10% CCN, 25 interviews, 4 callbacks, 8/10 interviewing ability." LOL NOPE.


Can you really tell how good of an interviewer you are based on number of callbacks? I mean if you have top 5% grades, and are interviewing with not terribly selective firms, I imagine you can be a pretty mediocre/bad interviewer and turn those into mad callbacks. On the flipside you could be a great interviewer but interviewing at firms you got mainly in the lotto and are well below their GPA range. It seems that you need to know the type of firms that a person is interviewing at to determine their relative interviewing strength except at the margins such as in your example (if you say you are a FANTASTIC interviewer have great grades and are interviewing at a large number of firms and get few callbacks you probably suck at interviewing).

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Re: UVa OGI 2011 thread

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Aug 08, 2011 12:54 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I had 15 through preselect and alternate. Not sure how many of those alts were from lottery or not, but i suppose it doesn't really matter. 5 lotteries. Only missed on 2 out of 11 alternates. All firms are "within my range or small stretches" sans 2 V10.


Damn. I ended up getting 22 preselects (including successful alternates), and I dropped down to 19 so I could take my shot with the lottery. I did not get a single interview via lottery, and now I'm crafting my special requests.

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Re: UVa OGI 2011 thread

Postby Cavalier » Mon Aug 08, 2011 12:55 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:3.2 to 3.25.

I bid almost all NYC firms putting the ones with low GPA requirements and largest class sizes at the top. If the number of lottery interviews I received was better than average then I guess the bid strategy worked. It could also be the fact that I had 0 preselects which meant that all of my bids kept their weight.

Contrary to TLS group think, bidding heavily NYC was not the way to go. I would special request firms in your home region like mad.

NYC is where the summer associate positions are. Other markets--even other primary markets like DC--have only a fraction of the summer associate positions that NYC has. Very few people should rely exclusive on OGI for finding a summer associate position, but bidding mostly NYC and then mailing secondary markets--especially where one has ties--is still the best strategy. The fact that more students seemed to target NYC than in years past, resulting in a lower disparity of interviews between those targeting NYC and those targeting DC, shouldn't dissuade others from targeting NYC.

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Re: UVa OGI 2011 thread

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Aug 08, 2011 12:56 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I had 15 through preselect and alternate. Not sure how many of those alts were from lottery or not, but i suppose it doesn't really matter. 5 lotteries. Only missed on 2 out of 11 alternates. All firms are "within my range or small stretches" sans 2 V10.


Damn. I ended up getting 22 preselects (including successful alternates), and I dropped down to 19 so I could take my shot with the lottery. I did not get a single interview via lottery, and now I'm crafting my special requests.


I mean you can only get one more interview so only 1 Special Request could do the trick.

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Re: UVa OGI 2011 thread

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Aug 08, 2011 12:59 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I had 15 through preselect and alternate. Not sure how many of those alts were from lottery or not, but i suppose it doesn't really matter. 5 lotteries. Only missed on 2 out of 11 alternates. All firms are "within my range or small stretches" sans 2 V10.


Damn. I ended up getting 22 preselects (including successful alternates), and I dropped down to 19 so I could take my shot with the lottery. I did not get a single interview via lottery, and now I'm crafting my special requests.


Yeah, jesus dude/dudette. I had 24 (including alternates), but I only picked up 5 of my 13 alternates. I was too risk-averse to drop any of the lower level firms for shots at the lottery, so I didn't have any lottery picks. Based on the above anon, I'm kind of glad I did.

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Re: UVa OGI 2011 thread

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Aug 08, 2011 12:59 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I had 15 through preselect and alternate. Not sure how many of those alts were from lottery or not, but i suppose it doesn't really matter. 5 lotteries. Only missed on 2 out of 11 alternates. All firms are "within my range or small stretches" sans 2 V10.


Damn. I ended up getting 22 preselects (including successful alternates), and I dropped down to 19 so I could take my shot with the lottery. I did not get a single interview via lottery, and now I'm crafting my special requests.


I mean you can only get one more interview so only 1 Special Request could do the trick.


Yeah, I'm not stressing over it cuz I've got a few firms which I'm pretty keen to SR, I'm just surprised by how crappy my lottery turned out.

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Re: UVa OGI 2011 thread

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Aug 08, 2011 1:00 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I had 15 through preselect and alternate. Not sure how many of those alts were from lottery or not, but i suppose it doesn't really matter. 5 lotteries. Only missed on 2 out of 11 alternates. All firms are "within my range or small stretches" sans 2 V10.


Damn. I ended up getting 22 preselects (including successful alternates), and I dropped down to 19 so I could take my shot with the lottery. I did not get a single interview via lottery, and now I'm crafting my special requests.


Yeah, jesus dude/dudette. I had 24 (including alternates), but I only picked up 5 of my 13 alternates. I was too risk-averse to drop any of the lower level firms for shots at the lottery, so I didn't have any lottery picks. Based on the above anon, I'm kind of glad I did.


I mean once again not sure how many of those were lottery, but with my grades and the low number of preselects i imagine i was near the top of the list on a lot of firms alternate schedule.

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Re: UVa OGI 2011 thread

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Aug 08, 2011 1:02 pm

Anonymity is hella confusing.

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Re: UVa OGI 2011 thread

Postby 5ky » Mon Aug 08, 2011 1:04 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Anonymity is hella confusing.


Meta

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Re: UVa OGI 2011 thread

Postby Cavalier » Mon Aug 08, 2011 1:05 pm

Doritos wrote:Can you really tell how good of an interviewer you are based on number of callbacks? I mean if you have top 5% grades, and are interviewing with not terribly selective firms, I imagine you can be a pretty mediocre/bad interviewer and turn those into mad callbacks. On the flipside you could be a great interviewer but interviewing at firms you got mainly in the lotto and are well below their GPA range. It seems that you need to know the type of firms that a person is interviewing at to determine their relative interviewing strength except at the margins such as in your example (if you say you are a FANTASTIC interviewer have great grades and are interviewing at a large number of firms and get few callbacks you probably suck at interviewing).

If you have friends with similar grades who are interviewing at the same firms, you can get some idea of your interviewing ability by comparing the number of callbacks received. There are, of course, other factors in play--work and experience and ties (outside of NYC), to name the biggest--but if you're getting significantly fewer callbacks than they are, your interviewing probably needs improvement.

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Re: UVa OGI 2011 thread

Postby bgdddymtty » Mon Aug 08, 2011 1:16 pm

Cavalier wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:3.2 to 3.25.

I bid almost all NYC firms putting the ones with low GPA requirements and largest class sizes at the top. If the number of lottery interviews I received was better than average then I guess the bid strategy worked. It could also be the fact that I had 0 preselects which meant that all of my bids kept their weight.

Contrary to TLS group think, bidding heavily NYC was not the way to go. I would special request firms in your home region like mad.

NYC is where the summer associate positions are. Other markets--even other primary markets like DC--have only a fraction of the summer associate positions that NYC has. Very few people should rely exclusive on OGI for finding a summer associate position, but bidding mostly NYC and then mailing secondary markets--especially where one has ties--is still the best strategy. The fact that more students seemed to target NYC than in years past, resulting in a lower disparity of interviews between those targeting NYC and those targeting DC, shouldn't dissuade others from targeting NYC.
This is not necessarily logically sound. Sure, there are more jobs in NYC. But is there also a correspondingly high number of candidates (not just at UVa, but among law students generally) competing for those jobs? I don't know the answer to this question, and it's crucial to the calculus.

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Re: UVa OGI 2011 thread

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Aug 08, 2011 1:24 pm

bgdddymtty wrote:his is not necessarily logically sound. Sure, there are more jobs in NYC. But is there also a correspondingly high number of candidates (not just at UVa, but among law students generally) competing for those jobs? I don't know the answer to this question, and it's crucial to the calculus.


Not only that, but reputation differences by region play a huge factor. Frankly, NYC just isn't UVA's strength. There are several schools that either have stronger reputations in NYC or have a stronger base there. The competition for spots in NYC does not bode in favor of UVA. For example, in every market we take a back seat to HYS. But in NYC we take a backseat to HYS, CCN, Penn and Cornell. Two of those schools are actually IN NYC and a huge number of attorneys at NYC firms attended them. Penn and Cornell are closer to NYC (with Cornell actually IN the state) and both are smaller than UVA. On top of that both schools have NYC as their primary market and have more alumni in NYC. UVA's strength isn't NYC. Our strength is DC and Southern secondary markets. Many southern firms view the school as the next best thing to Harvard and Yale. And in DC we only play second fiddle to HYS. Further, many DC firms actually hold spots in their summer classes for UVA. Kaye Scholer DC actually had a summer class last year of NOTHING but UVA students (and note that NYC firms do this as well, but they do it for the schools in their region--NOT UVA). All of this comes into play, not just what market has the highest number of spots open. Yes NYC has more spots, but it has more applicants, and more applicants from schools that are preferred by NYC firms over UVA.

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Re: UVa OGI 2011 thread

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Aug 08, 2011 1:37 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
bgdddymtty wrote:his is not necessarily logically sound. Sure, there are more jobs in NYC. But is there also a correspondingly high number of candidates (not just at UVa, but among law students generally) competing for those jobs? I don't know the answer to this question, and it's crucial to the calculus.


Not only that, but reputation differences by region play a huge factor. Frankly, NYC just isn't UVA's strength. There are several schools that either have stronger reputations in NYC or have a stronger base there. The competition for spots in NYC does not bode in favor of UVA. For example, in every market we take a back seat to HYS. But in NYC we take a backseat to HYS, CCN, Penn and Cornell. Two of those schools are actually IN NYC and a huge number of attorneys at NYC firms attended them. Penn and Cornell are closer to NYC (with Cornell actually IN the state) and both are smaller than UVA. On top of that both schools have NYC as their primary market and have more alumni in NYC. UVA's strength isn't NYC. Our strength is DC and Southern secondary markets. Many southern firms view the school as the next best thing to Harvard and Yale. And in DC we only play second fiddle to HYS. Further, many DC firms actually hold spots in their summer classes for UVA. Kaye Scholer DC actually had a summer class last year of NOTHING but UVA students (and note that NYC firms do this as well, but they do it for the schools in their region--NOT UVA). All of this comes into play, not just what market has the highest number of spots open. Yes NYC has more spots, but it has more applicants, and more applicants from schools that are preferred by NYC firms over UVA.


Are you a rising 2L? I don't mean that to be condescending, because what you wrote is plainly logical. It's also not how things bear out in practice. As a 3L I can tell you that every single person I know who applied in DC and NYC had an easier run in NYC. Number of interviews be damned, the key statistics were conversion to callbacks and conversion to offers, and NYC was substantially easier.

That's also what my friends from every other law school reported. Including "better" schools that "feed" more into NYC and "worse" schools that don't "feed" into NYC at all. And I have no idea where you get the idea that DC is a strength and NYC is not - historically we send 1/3 of our class to both markets. There's nothing to suggest we have any weakness in NYC.

Demand is overwhelming everywhere. There are an order of magnitude more students applying for big firm jobs at every school and in every region than there are jobs. And especially in the recent downturn, DC has seen especially high demand due to perceived stability and the extent to which Washington has been in the spotlight.

I personally started OGI last year with an even number of DC and NYC interviews and converted my NYC interviews to offers at a staggeringly higher rate than I did my DC interviews. For others in a similar situation to me that bore out as well.

It also plays out in historical GPA average data released by schools other than UVA (we're much more tight-lipped than most) that I have seen.

So your analysis is full of plausibility, but it's also not the way it actually works in practice. NYC has the room to absorb the demand and is historically substantially less selective than other major markets.

Secondary markets are a different animal. If you've never been to Indiana then it's not going to be a safe haven, but everyone has always been well advised to pursue smaller markets to which they have extensive ties.




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