UVa OGI 2011 thread Forum

[5ky]

I think it would be dumb to not allow students to special request if they've already hit their 20. These are "extra" interviews not built into the preselect + lottery system. If student X has 20 interviews, but would really like to special request a firm or two, they aren't really "taking" that interview from somebody. The firm might give the extra interview to student X, but not students Y or Z (say both of whom are below 20). So if X isn't allowed to special request that interview, then nobody would get it.

[dailygrind]

What would even constitute an "exceptional reason?" Creating an interview list consistent of nothing but reaches? Interviewing solely at firms with no more than 5 people in the summer class?

[Anonymous User]

My interviews are almost all reaches and it was made clear to me that that is not an exceptional reason because this was one of my concerns among many. I also raised the concern about the fact that I'm in more than one major and also a secondary market which also did not seem to fly.

To be fair I think the exceptional reasons are something of the sort of "major emergency had to leave town, had to cancel a screener, can I SR another"

20 is 20 is the official policy.

EDIT: Probably won't matter anyways. See Stock Market.

[albanach]

So if X isn't allowed to special request that interview, then nobody would get it.

What about someone else with less than 20 looking to special request it - say the top 25% guy with only a handful of preselects that started the momentary panic. Could they not be prevented from perhaps getting a special request interview by someone else with similar GPA but >20 preselects adding one more?

[Anonymous User]

So if X isn't allowed to special request that interview, then nobody would get it.

What about someone else with less than 20 looking to special request it - say the top 25% guy with only a handful of preselects that started the momentary panic. Could they not be prevented from perhaps getting a special request interview by someone else with similar GPA but >20 preselects adding one more?

That is possible. I think a problem, however, is that at that point, the firm will have decided that they didn't want the person as a preselect, alternate, and the student didn't put them high enough on their list to get an interview via the lottery.

A student with more 20 preselects won't get to participate in the lottery, however. For instance, I'm somewhat risk-averse (and didn't like the idea of turning down preselects in hopes of getting lottery selections, in essence trading away firms who chose me hoping to get interviews with firms who passed on me), and thus I'll have 20 preselects. But I also got zero of my top 5 (1 V10, 2 V20, 2 V50). I could've declined preselects, hoping to get them and nail the interview, but I didn't. And I'm completely fine not participating in the lottery, as I think the 20 cap is fair. But for me, that means my top 5 is completely gone, and it's not like we're talking Cravath, SullCrom, etc. here.

It's possible that another person will be able to pick up a special request, but it's not a given.

I think the reallocation system is stupid. The best system would be to have the lottery BEFORE you had to accept/decline preselects. That way, you'd still be able to keep the 20 limit, and everything would trickle down as it currently is, but would eliminate the problem of forcing students to decline preselects without knowing whether they will pick them up in the lottery/which ones they would get.

[Anonymous User]

God now I feel like I took too many preselects. I wanted to leave room for lottery and alts but as I read this I realize I screwed it up. I think I only left 2 spots open for all the alternates and the lottery, ie. I took 18 PSs. I was alt'd at some firms I had in my top 5 too, so if I get alternate spots at firms that were lower on list, I may lock myself out of lottery picks at firms I really liked and had a shot at.

Does anyone know if, when CSO calls I can wrangle my way around this? Do I just have to hope the firms I really like give me an alternate spot and this works out?

[Anonymous User]

God now I feel like I took too many preselects. I wanted to leave room for lottery and alts but as I read this I realize I screwed it up. I think I only left 2 spots open for all the alternates and the lottery, ie. I took 18 PSs. I was alt'd at some firms I had in my top 5 too, so if I get alternate spots at firms that were lower on list, I may lock myself out of lottery picks at firms I really liked and had a shot at.

Does anyone know if, when CSO calls I can wrangle my way around this? Do I just have to hope the firms I really like give me an alternate spot and this works out?

I don't know. But this (I'm the anon from two above) is exactly what I was talking about.

To this anon: I've given this some thought already, and might ask if CSO ever calls me. I don't see why they wouldn't be amenable to a late preselect decline, but I can't be sure.

Edit: one of the problems with this is that for me, these firms that I had up high were all 20 interview slot firms. That means that each only has 6 lottery slots, so it's not unreasonble to think that I might come away with only 1-3 lottery selections (none is also theoretically possible.) Say I have Cleary 1, Fried Frank 2, Shearman 3. Each has only 6 lottery slots. It's likely that 6 people had Shearman 1st or 2nd, so I wouldn't get that. Also possible that enough people had Fried Frank at 1 or 2 that I wouldn't get them. And I know a bunch of people had Cleary 1, so I don't want to count on that either. JUst made me really leery of declining preselects, interviews with firms who definitely wanted me, for the possibility of interviews with firms who, while I was still in their GPA ranges, did not preselect or alternate me.

[Anonymous User]

So if X isn't allowed to special request that interview, then nobody would get it.

What about someone else with less than 20 looking to special request it - say the top 25% guy with only a handful of preselects that started the momentary panic. Could they not be prevented from perhaps getting a special request interview by someone else with similar GPA but >20 preselects adding one more?

That is possible. I think a problem, however, is that at that point, the firm will have decided that they didn't want the person as a preselect, alternate, and the student didn't put them high enough on their list to get an interview via the lottery.

A student with more 20 preselects won't get to participate in the lottery, however. For instance, I'm somewhat risk-averse (and didn't like the idea of turning down preselects in hopes of getting lottery selections, in essence trading away firms who chose me hoping to get interviews with firms who passed on me), and thus I'll have 20 preselects. But I also got zero of my top 5 (1 V10, 2 V20, 2 V50). I could've declined preselects, hoping to get them and nail the interview, but I didn't. And I'm completely fine not participating in the lottery, as I think the 20 cap is fair. But for me, that means my top 5 is completely gone, and it's not like we're talking Cravath, SullCrom, etc. here.

It's possible that another person will be able to pick up a special request, but it's not a given.

I think the reallocation system is stupid. The best system would be to have the lottery BEFORE you had to accept/decline preselects. That way, you'd still be able to keep the 20 limit, and everything would trickle down as it currently is, but would eliminate the problem of forcing students to decline preselects without knowing whether they will pick them up in the lottery/which ones they would get.

So a firm with 20 interview slots, therefore leaving only 13 preslects and 10ish alternates wouldn't hire anyone else? No that is silly. Firms have to cut people that they woudl hire based sheerly on numbers. Just the way the system is.

Also, just because u rank a firm in your top 5 doesn't mean that you will automatically get them, so that logic fails as well.

[Anonymous User]

So if X isn't allowed to special request that interview, then nobody would get it.

What about someone else with less than 20 looking to special request it - say the top 25% guy with only a handful of preselects that started the momentary panic. Could they not be prevented from perhaps getting a special request interview by someone else with similar GPA but >20 preselects adding one more?

That is possible. I think a problem, however, is that at that point, the firm will have decided that they didn't want the person as a preselect, alternate, and the student didn't put them high enough on their list to get an interview via the lottery.

A student with more 20 preselects won't get to participate in the lottery, however. For instance, I'm somewhat risk-averse (and didn't like the idea of turning down preselects in hopes of getting lottery selections, in essence trading away firms who chose me hoping to get interviews with firms who passed on me), and thus I'll have 20 preselects. But I also got zero of my top 5 (1 V10, 2 V20, 2 V50). I could've declined preselects, hoping to get them and nail the interview, but I didn't. And I'm completely fine not participating in the lottery, as I think the 20 cap is fair. But for me, that means my top 5 is completely gone, and it's not like we're talking Cravath, SullCrom, etc. here.

It's possible that another person will be able to pick up a special request, but it's not a given.

I think the reallocation system is stupid. The best system would be to have the lottery BEFORE you had to accept/decline preselects. That way, you'd still be able to keep the 20 limit, and everything would trickle down as it currently is, but would eliminate the problem of forcing students to decline preselects without knowing whether they will pick them up in the lottery/which ones they would get.

So a firm with 20 interview slots, therefore leaving only 13 preslects and 10ish alternates wouldn't hire anyone else? No that is silly. Firms have to cut people that they woudl hire based sheerly on numbers. Just the way the system is.

Also, just because u rank a firm in your top 5 doesn't mean that you will automatically get them, so that logic fails as well.

I honestly don't understand anything that you said there, and am not exactly sure how it relates to what I wrote.

[Anonymous User]

Yeah, I don't really follow it all. You lost me when you said 20 interview spots leads to 13 preselects and 10ish alternates.

[Anonymous User]

Actually, maybe I do understand it. I think if you were referring to the opening sentence I used about a firm having chosen to not use them as a preselect/alternate/not having them as a high lottery is a problem.

Sure, I mean that makes sense. And I obviously never said that those people with fewer than 20 wouldn't get special requests; that's stupid. My whole point is that special requests are extra interviews, and there's no guarantee that a firm will give anybody one. So it seems at least a little silly to restrict those who probably have a better chance (all things equal) of being granted a special request from applying for one.

[Anonymous User]

Anyone who has been through the process have any insight to share in terms of how succesful special requests are in terms of being granted and leadign to callbacks?

[Anonymous User]

The ability not to be able to special request for over 20 interviews really strange. Since they are so targeted, and outside the formal interview process they should not be subject to the limit. As someone with 20 pre-selects, I accepted 20 on the understanding that I could special request some of the alternates. I wasn't going to spam a million firms, but write very targeted requests to a couple firms. Frustrating.

[Anonymous User]

The ability not to be able to special request for over 20 interviews really strange. Since they are so targeted, and outside the formal interview process they should not be subject to the limit. As someone with 20 pre-selects, I accepted 20 on the understanding that I could special request some of the alternates. I wasn't going to spam a million firms, but write very targeted requests to a couple firms. Frustrating.

Career services runs the special request process, how is that outside the overall OGI process?

[Anonymous User]

The ability not to be able to special request for over 20 interviews really strange. Since they are so targeted, and outside the formal interview process they should not be subject to the limit. As someone with 20 pre-selects, I accepted 20 on the understanding that I could special request some of the alternates. I wasn't going to spam a million firms, but write very targeted requests to a couple firms. Frustrating.

Career services runs the special request process, how is that outside the overall OGI process?

? I mean obviously the person that wrote that didn't meant it was completely outside UVa. But it's completely divorced from the bidding process in every other way -- does not count towards the firm's # of interview slots, you can special request firms you didn't even bid on, etc. It's basically just making a direct appeal to a firm that is interviewing, asking them to squeeze you in at lunch.

[Anonymous User]

It seems to me that so many questions here could be answered by simply reading the OGI handbook. I am surprised that, with the number of people here that are at the top of the class, people have seemingly not taken the time to do this.
That's one issue I have when reading these posts. As someone who didn't get good grades, yet lots of interviews, it seems something is amiss when supposedly intelligent people can't find the answers in a readily available resource.

Another thing that occurs to me is that people with 20 interviews who are frustrated they can't get more interviews are just plain old selfish. I would like someone with 20 interviews to look in the eyes of one of their friends with one interview, and assert that they, flush with interviews, deserve a special request just as much the person with one.

But then again, maybe the people on this board are ok with being selfish. They seem to be ok with being too impatient to read the OGI handbook.

[Anonymous User]

It seems to me that so many questions here could be answered by simply reading the OGI handbook. I am surprised that, with the number of people here that are at the top of the class, people have seemingly not taken the time to do this.
That's one issue I have when reading these posts. As someone who didn't get good grades, yet lots of interviews, it seems something is amiss when supposedly intelligent people can't find the answers in a readily available resource.

Another thing that occurs to me is that people with 20 interviews who are frustrated they can't get more interviews are just plain old selfish. I would like someone with 20 interviews to look in the eyes of one of their friends with one interview, and assert that they, flush with interviews, deserve a special request just as much the person with one.

But then again, maybe the people on this board are ok with being selfish. They seem to be ok with being too impatient to read the OGI handbook.

I'm far from the top of the class and I haven't read the OGI handbook as thoroughly as I should have. But I'll rise to the defense of those far more fortunate than me on this count - an interview isn't a callback. Now, if people are complaining when they're on Law Review, my sympathies begin to falter somewhat, but they're just as desperate as those at median grades to get a job and just as self-conscious. I can't blame them for voicing it.

I don't know. It's just..this isn't the first time I've heard these sentiments and it bugs the heck out of me. It also just isn't constructive. The system is how the system is. Those at the top aren't going to get the cap removed. Let them voice their concerns if they wish. We might have done the same.

[Anonymous User]

It seems to me that so many questions here could be answered by simply reading the OGI handbook. I am surprised that, with the number of people here that are at the top of the class, people have seemingly not taken the time to do this.
That's one issue I have when reading these posts. As someone who didn't get good grades, yet lots of interviews, it seems something is amiss when supposedly intelligent people can't find the answers in a readily available resource.

Another thing that occurs to me is that people with 20 interviews who are frustrated they can't get more interviews are just plain old selfish. I would like someone with 20 interviews to look in the eyes of one of their friends with one interview, and assert that they, flush with interviews, deserve a special request just as much the person with one.

But then again, maybe the people on this board are ok with being selfish. They seem to be ok with being too impatient to read the OGI handbook.

There are a number of mistaken assumptions here. The handbook is incredibly vague as to special requests and the limit of 20.

This is the deadline to accept/decline preselect interviews. You can accept up to 20 interviews. If you have been offered more than 20, you must decline enough to get down to 20. This does not mean that you are barred from interviewing with these firms. You may still reach out to set up an interview outside of OGI and in appropriate circumstances, you can make a special request to get on the schedule. If you believe that you have special circumstances that make it unlikely that you will get an offer with 20 interviews, you can contact us and in extraordinary circumstances, an exception may be granted.

That could come down either way as to whether a person with 20 interview could special request a firm.

Also, I take offense at your suggestion that wanting to special request is out of pure selfishness. As I've already noted, the main reason I'm concerned about not being able to special request is that I went 0/5 for my top 5. This is a failure of the reallocation system. If the lottery were held before we had to accept/decline, there would not be a level of uncertainty as to whether a student with 20 should decline preselects in hopes of getting firms they would really, really, like or not.

[Anonymous User]

It seems to me that so many questions here could be answered by simply reading the OGI handbook. I am surprised that, with the number of people here that are at the top of the class, people have seemingly not taken the time to do this.
That's one issue I have when reading these posts. As someone who didn't get good grades, yet lots of interviews, it seems something is amiss when supposedly intelligent people can't find the answers in a readily available resource.

Another thing that occurs to me is that people with 20 interviews who are frustrated they can't get more interviews are just plain old selfish. I would like someone with 20 interviews to look in the eyes of one of their friends with one interview, and assert that they, flush with interviews, deserve a special request just as much the person with one.

But then again, maybe the people on this board are ok with being selfish. They seem to be ok with being too impatient to read the OGI handbook.

I'm far from the top of the class and I haven't read the OGI handbook as thoroughly as I should have. But I'll rise to the defense of those far more fortunate than me on this count - an interview isn't a callback. Now, if people are complaining when they're on Law Review, my sympathies begin to falter somewhat, but they're just as desperate as those at median grades to get a job and just as self-conscious. I can't blame them for voicing it.

I don't know. It's just..this isn't the first time I've heard these sentiments and it bugs the heck out of me. It also just isn't constructive.

You are right, perhaps pointing out that people are being selfish is not constructive.

Is complaining about not having everything you want when you have so much, and others so little, constructive? In what way is that constructive? The squeaky wheel gets the grease and career services decides that people should have as many interviews/special requests as possible?
Indeed, interviews are not callbacks, but I think it is pretty difficult to get a callback without an interview.

I think this is just how our world goes. Fortunately those older and wiser in career services realize that an overall cap on interviews potentially benefits the largest number of people, which is important in itself.

[Anonymous User]

I also thought the OGI handbook was silent re: SR above 20, but I could be wrong. I'd welcome the person making the attack on us selfish people to point to it though. I know it says your limit is 20 but that was in the section relating to accepting preselects/alternates.

Also, the firms I would have been SR'ing are probably not the same firms that someone with 1 or 2 interviews would be SR'ing. Secondly, who is going to be SR'ing the really elite firms? Is someone who is really in the running for a Cravath or a W&C or Covington going to have less than 20 interviews by the time it gets to the SR stage? I bet some of these firms will have 0 meaningful special requests. If someone with 20+ interviews and with the grades for these firms could SR them then maybe they would get a callback and an offer and subsequently decline some of their other screeners after the fact and open more spots for others.

I understand the idea that someone with 20 interviews all lined up already special requesting a firm that takes students at median or with similar grades is appalling. But what about the scenario above?

Please don't jump to conclusions and attack people. It doesn't help anyone and it doesn't serve the forum. Even if there is only rare scenarios in which people are worried about, they are possibilities nonetheless.

[joeshmo39]

It seems to me that so many questions here could be answered by simply reading the OGI handbook. I am surprised that, with the number of people here that are at the top of the class, people have seemingly not taken the time to do this.
That's one issue I have when reading these posts. As someone who didn't get good grades, yet lots of interviews, it seems something is amiss when supposedly intelligent people can't find the answers in a readily available resource.

Another thing that occurs to me is that people with 20 interviews who are frustrated they can't get more interviews are just plain old selfish. I would like someone with 20 interviews to look in the eyes of one of their friends with one interview, and assert that they, flush with interviews, deserve a special request just as much the person with one.

But then again, maybe the people on this board are ok with being selfish. They seem to be ok with being too impatient to read the OGI handbook.

Whoa whoa, pump the breaks. Was that honestly in the OGI handbook because until just now I really though special requests didn't count. Enough people on the board are echoing my sentiment that I'm thinking we're not crazy. Perhaps even intelligent people are having a hard time here because, as mentioned above, parts of the process and strategy are complicated. I read the OGI handbook, but I guess something slipped through the cracks.

Also, the word "selfish" left my vocabulary right after I was thrown off my middle school cheerleading squad (Sorry I just have this image of tweens in their parents McMansions calling other girls "selfish" for not sharing their Lisa Frank stickers). We're all just trying to get good jobs here. Perhaps for some that's a relative term. I don't think "good" is just a job, I think it's a job in a place I want to be doing work, that's interesting, with people who are genuinely decent. To someone with 1 pre-select I say good luck, but I will look them in the eye and say I'm special requesting a firm I missed out on because I have a genuine interest in working at that firm. I'll let the firm decide who deserves it. We're all trying to put ourselves in the best position we can be in, certainly everyone understands that. The beautiful thing about special requests, I thought, is that they're not a zero sum game. Firms can give, within reasonable limits, as many or few as they want. It's a little different when they count toward the 20 limit of course.

Edit: I was not wrong about the vagueness of the handbook!

[wahoova]

I am curious if anyone who is suggesting we spread the wealth with respect to interviews would feel the same way in a different setting. On the other side, I wonder if anyone who is complaining they cannot keep 30 interviews feels its OK to tax the rich in another setting?

I don't mean to get too far off topic or start a fight. It's just that I have spoken to a few of our on both sides who seem to have had a huge ideological shift when their own career and future earnings are concerned.

In full disclosure, I am sitting at 2 PS and 1 Alt and accept the system for what it is.

[Anonymous User]

It seems to me that so many questions here could be answered by simply reading the OGI handbook. I am surprised that, with the number of people here that are at the top of the class, people have seemingly not taken the time to do this.
That's one issue I have when reading these posts. As someone who didn't get good grades, yet lots of interviews, it seems something is amiss when supposedly intelligent people can't find the answers in a readily available resource.

Another thing that occurs to me is that people with 20 interviews who are frustrated they can't get more interviews are just plain old selfish. I would like someone with 20 interviews to look in the eyes of one of their friends with one interview, and assert that they, flush with interviews, deserve a special request just as much the person with one.

But then again, maybe the people on this board are ok with being selfish. They seem to be ok with being too impatient to read the OGI handbook.

Whoa whoa, pump the breaks. Was that honestly in the OGI handbook because until just now I really though special requests didn't count. Enough people on the board are echoing my sentiment that I'm thinking we're not crazy. Perhaps even intelligent people are having a hard time here because, as mentioned above, parts of the process and strategy are complicated. I read the OGI handbook, but I guess something slipped through the cracks.

Also, the word "selfish" left my vocabulary right after I was thrown off my middle school cheerleading squad (Sorry I just have this image of tweens in their parents McMansions calling other girls "selfish" for not sharing their Lisa Frank stickers). We're all just trying to get good jobs here. Perhaps for some that's a relative term. I don't think "good" is just a job, I think it's a job in a place I want to be doing work, that's interesting, with people who are genuinely decent. To someone with 1 pre-select I say good luck, but I will look them in the eye and say I'm special requesting a firm I missed out on because I have a genuine interest in working at that firm. I'll let the firm decide who deserves it. We're all trying to put ourselves in the best position we can be in, certainly everyone understands that. The beautiful thing about special requests, I thought, is that they're not a zero sum game. Firms can give, within reasonable limits, as many or few as they want. It's a little different when they count toward the 20 limit of course.

Edit: I was not wrong about the vagueness of the handbook!

There's no issue with that strategy. The issue becomes if you special request that firm, get an offer, and then turn it down for one of your four others while the person with one preselect stands there empty handed after you took a job at which, all other things equal, they could have easily been hired.

Thats the certain circumstances that CSO talks about. Of course they'll let you special request Skadden if you had a Skadden mobile hanging above your crib and wrote an 8th grade essay entitled Why I Want To Make Partner At Skadden. However, you don't get to go around special requesting any job you want just because you want to. With 20 interviews, you should have plenty of options to get what you define as a "good job".

Edited for clarity

[5ky]

There's no issue with that strategy. The issue becomes if you special request that firm, get an offer, and then turn it down for one of your four others while the person with one preselect stands there empty handed after you took a job at which, all other things equal, they could have easily been hired.

Thats the certain circumstances that CSO talks about. Of course they'll let you special request Skadden if you had a Skadden mobile hanging above your crib and wrote an 8th grade essay entitled Why I Want To Make Partner At Skadden. However, you don't get to go around special requesting any job you want just because you want to. With 20 interviews, you should have plenty of options to get what you define as a "good job".

Edited for clarity

I don't know what to tell you, man. I just don't see any justification for what you're arguing other than a somewhat nebulous normative argument that OGI perfection involves some sort of scenario where everyone has around 20 interviews. If you wanted that, maybe you should have gone to any other school in the T14 that does a pure lottery, because that's basically what those systems look like. UVA's system of OGI is different, and because it's the reason why a vast majority of people go to law school, I don't listen too much to people who complain about it. If you really don't like it, it would be your responsibility to weigh that in deciding what school to go to.

I realize you aren't really complaining about the system, but you are calling selfish those who appear to have a somewhat legitimate gripe about a technicality in the process. I personally had no idea that you couldn't special request if you were at 20 until today, and from what people have said, that information doesn't appear to have been readily available. The email they sent explaining how to special request did not mention anything of the sort.

[Anonymous User]

There's no issue with that strategy. The issue becomes if you special request that firm, get an offer, and then turn it down for one of your four others while the person with one preselect stands there empty handed after you took a job at which, all other things equal, they could have easily been hired.

Thats the certain circumstances that CSO talks about. Of course they'll let you special request Skadden if you had a Skadden mobile hanging above your crib and wrote an 8th grade essay entitled Why I Want To Make Partner At Skadden. However, you don't get to go around special requesting any job you want just because you want to. With 20 interviews, you should have plenty of options to get what you define as a "good job".

Edited for clarity

I don't know what to tell you, man. I just don't see any justification for what you're arguing other than a somewhat nebulous normative argument that OGI perfection involves some sort of scenario where everyone has around 20 interviews. If you wanted that, maybe you should have gone to any other school in the T14 that does a pure lottery, because that's basically what those systems look like. UVA's system of OGI is different, and because it's the reason why a vast majority of people go to law school, I don't listen too much to people who complain about it. If you really don't like it, it would be your responsibility to weigh that in deciding what school to go to.

I realize you aren't really complaining about the system, but you are calling selfish those who appear to have a somewhat legitimate gripe about a technicality in the process. I personally had no idea that you couldn't special request if you were at 20 until today, and from what people have said, that information doesn't appear to have been readily available. The email they sent explaining how to special request did not mention anything of the sort.

Maybe all you people should have just asked career services like i did?