largest 2012 SA classes

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thesealocust
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Re: largest 2012 SA classes

Postby thesealocust » Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:57 am

(1) The "estimates" are reported to NALP after most hiring but before the summer. Changes are thus usually relativley minimal. Every firm I have background info on is in the ballpark of the NALP listings, and at least a few have more than the NALP form indicates. They're definitely not uniformly overstated.

(2) So long as you know firms general level of selectivity - which is a combination of 'prestige', size, and historical data schools keep - then I think weighting bids towards large classes is really smart. There will be a lot of competition for even interview slots at a firm that routinely hires median students, even if that firm only hires 1-2 total people every year. On the flip side, firms with huge summer classes often pull in a mix of students.

(3) Vronsky: Bid wherever you want. Those grades are the kind that will make Cravath consider you even if you're not from a good school, as an obvious and relevant example. You'll have a particularly chaotic cycle because some firms will likely be cool to transfers in general, but your credentials are great and there's no hard and fast line to be drawn about where you could get a job at this point.

keg411
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Re: largest 2012 SA classes

Postby keg411 » Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:59 am

Vronsky wrote:(2) Is there a better source than NALP? Someone else mentioned Sympliciy above, but I'm not sure where to find the data on Symplicity. Any help? Any advice? Anyone?


I'm not sure if everyone's Simplicity is the same, but here is how I found it:
1) Go to OCI tab
2) Click on list of firms coming (for us, we have a few rounds, so I would go to the drop down menu and pull up Round One)
3) Click on REVIEW for any of the firms
4) When the data comes up, there is a link to the firms name in around the upper right corner (above the contact information). Click on this.
5) There is a sidebar (on the left) that says KEY STATS. Some are blank, some have just a list of offices, and others give a projected 2012 class size. (There is also general information about some of the firms in the center of this section, including practice areas and a firm narrative)

If you want to test this on a firm that you know gives a projection, use Latham just to figure out where this information is located (although their projection appears to be for all offices, not for any individual office).

Sup Kid
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Re: largest 2012 SA classes

Postby Sup Kid » Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:25 am

Vronsky wrote:If class size isn't a good indicator of selectivity, how to estimate selectivity? SAs:Offers doesn't seem to offer that much, because most firms have close to 100% offer rates (with a few around 75-80%).

There's a BIG difference between 95-100% and 75-80% -- in the former, it tends to be the SA's job to lose, where only a complete disaster has someone get no-offered, whereas in the latter, its more competitive, where you have to actively show the firm you deserve an offer. Sure, a large majority will get offers at either place, but everyone I know used offer rates as a relatively important factor.

Anonymous User
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Re: largest 2012 SA classes

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:32 am

keg411 wrote:
Vronsky wrote:(2) Is there a better source than NALP? Someone else mentioned Sympliciy above, but I'm not sure where to find the data on Symplicity. Any help? Any advice? Anyone?


I'm not sure if everyone's Simplicity is the same, but here is how I found it:
1) Go to OCI tab
2) Click on list of firms coming (for us, we have a few rounds, so I would go to the drop down menu and pull up Round One)
3) Click on REVIEW for any of the firms
4) When the data comes up, there is a link to the firms name in around the upper right corner (above the contact information). Click on this.
5) There is a sidebar (on the left) that says KEY STATS. Some are blank, some have just a list of offices, and others give a projected 2012 class size. (There is also general information about some of the firms in the center of this section, including practice areas and a firm narrative)

If you want to test this on a firm that you know gives a projection, use Latham just to figure out where this information is located (although their projection appears to be for all offices, not for any individual office).


Where does Latham put the number of associates that they're going to lay off in 4-5 years?

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englawyer
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Re: largest 2012 SA classes

Postby englawyer » Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:04 am

Sup Kid wrote:
Vronsky wrote:If class size isn't a good indicator of selectivity, how to estimate selectivity? SAs:Offers doesn't seem to offer that much, because most firms have close to 100% offer rates (with a few around 75-80%).

There's a BIG difference between 95-100% and 75-80% -- in the former, it tends to be the SA's job to lose, where only a complete disaster has someone get no-offered, whereas in the latter, its more competitive, where you have to actively show the firm you deserve an offer. Sure, a large majority will get offers at either place, but everyone I know used offer rates as a relatively important factor.


agree here..considering 3L oci is an uphill battle, i would prefer to be REALLY sure of getting an offer from SA, not just pretty sure.

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Vronsky
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Re: largest 2012 SA classes

Postby Vronsky » Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:16 am

englawyer wrote:
Sup Kid wrote:
Vronsky wrote:If class size isn't a good indicator of selectivity, how to estimate selectivity? SAs:Offers doesn't seem to offer that much, because most firms have close to 100% offer rates (with a few around 75-80%).

There's a BIG difference between 95-100% and 75-80% -- in the former, it tends to be the SA's job to lose, where only a complete disaster has someone get no-offered, whereas in the latter, its more competitive, where you have to actively show the firm you deserve an offer. Sure, a large majority will get offers at either place, but everyone I know used offer rates as a relatively important factor.


agree here..considering 3L oci is an uphill battle, i would prefer to be REALLY sure of getting an offer from SA, not just pretty sure.


My point was that aside from the glaringly obvious firms that have 75-80% offer rates (thus the ones that actually consider the quality of work product by SAs), how to gauge selectivity among the majority of firms that have very high/close to 100% offer rates (thus the ones that follow the 'don't get drunk and hit on a partners wife' mantra)? The general calculus suggested by sealocust is my only guideline - some combo of 'prestige' and actual data.

Wouldn't some ratio of Screener Interviews::Callbacks or Screeners::SAs or Callbacks::SAs be good indicator?

seriouslyinformative
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Re: largest 2012 SA classes

Postby seriouslyinformative » Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:26 am

Wouldn't put too much stock in any 2012 numbers you find. At least at my firm, the number of summer associates we intend to take on can and does change even during the recruiting season. And it can change wildly, so the 2012 numbers you see now might not even be good estimates.

As of May, I know how many my firm will take on. But I'm sure the number has already changed.

Aston2412
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Re: largest 2012 SA classes

Postby Aston2412 » Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:29 am

Vronsky wrote:
englawyer wrote:
Sup Kid wrote:
Vronsky wrote:If class size isn't a good indicator of selectivity, how to estimate selectivity? SAs:Offers doesn't seem to offer that much, because most firms have close to 100% offer rates (with a few around 75-80%).

There's a BIG difference between 95-100% and 75-80% -- in the former, it tends to be the SA's job to lose, where only a complete disaster has someone get no-offered, whereas in the latter, its more competitive, where you have to actively show the firm you deserve an offer. Sure, a large majority will get offers at either place, but everyone I know used offer rates as a relatively important factor.


agree here..considering 3L oci is an uphill battle, i would prefer to be REALLY sure of getting an offer from SA, not just pretty sure.


My point was that aside from the glaringly obvious firms that have 75-80% offer rates (thus the ones that actually consider the quality of work product by SAs), how to gauge selectivity among the majority of firms that have very high/close to 100% offer rates (thus the ones that follow the 'don't get drunk and hit on a partners wife' mantra)? The general calculus suggested by sealocust is my only guideline - some combo of 'prestige' and actual data.

Wouldn't some ratio of Screener Interviews::Callbacks or Screeners::SAs or Callbacks::SAs be good indicator?


I think number of applicants to number of screener interviews is the real relevant material, unfortunately that information is probably hard to come by. Better yet if we could figure out the GPAs and the softs contained on those applications and possessed by those who got screener interviews.

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bjsesq
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Re: largest 2012 SA classes

Postby bjsesq » Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:32 am

seriouslyinformative wrote:Wouldn't put too much stock in any 2012 numbers you find. At least at my firm, the number of summer associates we intend to take on can and does change even during the recruiting season. And it can change wildly, so the 2012 numbers you see now might not even be good estimates.

As of May, I know how many my firm will take on. But I'm sure the number has already changed.


Am I correct in assuming the number has gone up? If so, care to weigh in on whether the increase is minscule or decent?

Anonymous User
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Re: largest 2012 SA classes

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:34 am

I can say the number has gone way up.

Aston2412
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Re: largest 2012 SA classes

Postby Aston2412 » Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:49 am

Anonymous User wrote:I can say the number has gone way up.


Can you be more specific, in regards to both the increase and the firm/office?

Aston2412
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Re: largest 2012 SA classes

Postby Aston2412 » Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:53 am

keg411 wrote:
Vronsky wrote:(2) Is there a better source than NALP? Someone else mentioned Sympliciy above, but I'm not sure where to find the data on Symplicity. Any help? Any advice? Anyone?


I'm not sure if everyone's Simplicity is the same, but here is how I found it:
1) Go to OCI tab
2) Click on list of firms coming (for us, we have a few rounds, so I would go to the drop down menu and pull up Round One)
3) Click on REVIEW for any of the firms
4) When the data comes up, there is a link to the firms name in around the upper right corner (above the contact information). Click on this.
5) There is a sidebar (on the left) that says KEY STATS. Some are blank, some have just a list of offices, and others give a projected 2012 class size. (There is also general information about some of the firms in the center of this section, including practice areas and a firm narrative)

If you want to test this on a firm that you know gives a projection, use Latham just to figure out where this information is located (although their projection appears to be for all offices, not for any individual office).


This is very helpful - didn't know about this! I'd been going off NALP 2011 data.

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Vronsky
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Re: largest 2012 SA classes

Postby Vronsky » Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:55 am

are we talking about the number of prospective 2012 SAs in comparison to the number of 2011 SAs?

Just to be clear, the list I posted indicates the expected 2011 SAs according to NALP (of course there are actual numbers but NALP doesn't have them yet), which seem to be fairly close, except for one mysterious firm listed as having "more than 20" (thus all on the list) which actually has around 10.

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bjsesq
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Re: largest 2012 SA classes

Postby bjsesq » Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:57 am

Vronsky wrote:are we talking about the number of prospective 2012 SAs in comparison to the number of 2011 SAs?


That was my intent, yeah. No idea on the response, though.

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Vronsky
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Re: largest 2012 SA classes

Postby Vronsky » Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:59 am

Aston2412 wrote:
keg411 wrote:
Vronsky wrote:(2) Is there a better source than NALP? Someone else mentioned Sympliciy above, but I'm not sure where to find the data on Symplicity. Any help? Any advice? Anyone?


I'm not sure if everyone's Simplicity is the same, but here is how I found it:
1) Go to OCI tab
2) Click on list of firms coming (for us, we have a few rounds, so I would go to the drop down menu and pull up Round One)
3) Click on REVIEW for any of the firms
4) When the data comes up, there is a link to the firms name in around the upper right corner (above the contact information). Click on this.
5) There is a sidebar (on the left) that says KEY STATS. Some are blank, some have just a list of offices, and others give a projected 2012 class size. (There is also general information about some of the firms in the center of this section, including practice areas and a firm narrative)

If you want to test this on a firm that you know gives a projection, use Latham just to figure out where this information is located (although their projection appears to be for all offices, not for any individual office).


This is very helpful - didn't know about this! I'd been going off NALP 2011 data.


Alas my TT does not even have its list of OCI firms on Symplicity yet. Anything interesting on yours?

Aston2412
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Re: largest 2012 SA classes

Postby Aston2412 » Mon Jun 20, 2011 12:09 pm

Vronsky wrote:
Aston2412 wrote:
This is very helpful - didn't know about this! I'd been going off NALP 2011 data.


Alas my TT does not even have its list of OCI firms on Symplicity yet. Anything interesting on yours?


Ehh, most firms don't seem to have it. I just check a few to see and so far Latham and Nixon Peabody were the only two that had numbers posted for expected SAs. Moreover, they don't specify how many positions per office. So Latham's 166 expected is likely largely divided over all of its offices. Likewise Nixon Peabody's expected 25 is divided over its 13 domestic offices. Which leads me to believe that its D.C. numbers won't be far off from the 3 (2010) or 4 (2011) that NALP was showing.

Still, it's always good to have more information available.

seriouslyinformative
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Re: largest 2012 SA classes

Postby seriouslyinformative » Mon Jun 20, 2011 1:08 pm

Aston2412 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I can say the number has gone way up.


Can you be more specific, in regards to both the increase and the firm/office?


Top firm in a major market. But we recovered a while ago and have been hiring big for quite some time now.

keg411
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Re: largest 2012 SA classes

Postby keg411 » Mon Jun 20, 2011 4:32 pm

seriouslyinformative wrote:Wouldn't put too much stock in any 2012 numbers you find. At least at my firm, the number of summer associates we intend to take on can and does change even during the recruiting season. And it can change wildly, so the 2012 numbers you see now might not even be good estimates.

As of May, I know how many my firm will take on. But I'm sure the number has already changed.


But you'd have to think the number at the end of June would be more accurate.
I dunno, it seems like slightly better data to me than the 2011 NALP data. (The only really probably with the expected 2012 numbers is that most don't specify by office -- although for some of the firms coming to my school, they don't hire SA's at all offices, so it's easier to figure the real number out).

seriouslyinformative
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Re: largest 2012 SA classes

Postby seriouslyinformative » Mon Jun 20, 2011 5:40 pm

keg411 wrote:
seriouslyinformative wrote:Wouldn't put too much stock in any 2012 numbers you find. At least at my firm, the number of summer associates we intend to take on can and does change even during the recruiting season. And it can change wildly, so the 2012 numbers you see now might not even be good estimates.

As of May, I know how many my firm will take on. But I'm sure the number has already changed.


But you'd have to think the number at the end of June would be more accurate.
I dunno, it seems like slightly better data to me than the 2011 NALP data. (The only really probably with the expected 2012 numbers is that most don't specify by office -- although for some of the firms coming to my school, they don't hire SA's at all offices, so it's easier to figure the real number out).


You'd have to think that, yes. But what's intuitively correct is not necessarily logically correct. As a law student, you should know and appreciate the distinction.

keg411
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Re: largest 2012 SA classes

Postby keg411 » Mon Jun 20, 2011 5:58 pm

seriouslyinformative wrote:
keg411 wrote:
seriouslyinformative wrote:Wouldn't put too much stock in any 2012 numbers you find. At least at my firm, the number of summer associates we intend to take on can and does change even during the recruiting season. And it can change wildly, so the 2012 numbers you see now might not even be good estimates.

As of May, I know how many my firm will take on. But I'm sure the number has already changed.


But you'd have to think the number at the end of June would be more accurate.
I dunno, it seems like slightly better data to me than the 2011 NALP data. (The only really probably with the expected 2012 numbers is that most don't specify by office -- although for some of the firms coming to my school, they don't hire SA's at all offices, so it's easier to figure the real number out).


You'd have to think that, yes. But what's intuitively correct is not necessarily logically correct. As a law student, you should know and appreciate the distinction.


I probably should :lol:. I think I'm just grasping for data at straws for any type of data I can get my hands on about how to handle OCI/the 2L summer job search.

seriouslyinformative
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Re: largest 2012 SA classes

Postby seriouslyinformative » Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:05 pm

The NALP 2011 data are more than enough. Compare with 2010 to see which firms are in growth mode. Firms whose class sizes increased between the two years will likely either have the same 2012 class size as 2011 or a class that's even larger.

Headybrah
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Re: largest 2012 SA classes

Postby Headybrah » Sun Jul 10, 2011 11:39 pm

anyone got any more firms to add to the list of large summer classes?

Any non-nalp firms have big classes?

Any thoughts on whether classes will be bigger than lest year?




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