largest 2012 SA classes Forum

[Headybrah]

anyone want to share firms they find that are taking fairly large classes for 2012 SA?

What are the most robust markets?

[Anonymous User]

anyone want to share firms they find that are taking fairly large classes for 2012 SA?

What are the most robust markets?

Knobbe Martin, an IP firm in Orange County, CA, has 30.

[Sup Kid]

What are the most robust markets?

NYC is the only market that can possibly be considered "robust" and even that isn't really accurate. Robust was 2006-2007, when many firms had 75-100+ SAs, and even smaller NYC firms had 50. Now, only a few NYC firms have 100+, and a large majority have between 25-40. Other markets have much smaller classes than that. Check out some NALP forms for actual numbers, but mainly, apply to NY, as in, use 1/2 of your bids in NY.

[thesealocust]

(roughly) V15 firms with large offices in NYC are almost certainly the largest. Read firm info on nalpdirectory.com to get a good sense for where the big hiring is likely to occur.

[vamedic03]

What are the most robust markets?

NYC is the only market that can possibly be considered "robust" and even that isn't really accurate. Robust was 2006-2007, when many firms had 75-100+ SAs, and even smaller NYC firms had 50. Now, only a few NYC firms have 100+, and a large majority have between 25-40. Other markets have much smaller classes than that. Check out some NALP forms for actual numbers, but mainly, apply to NY, as in, use 1/2 of your bids in NY.

DC is probably the most robust market, even if NYC has the largest SA classes.

[Headybrah]

yeah V15 is out of reach for me as I am only top 14% at a school ranked b/w 40-50...

Not sure where I should be looking but I would hope to have an outside shot at some SA programs in NYC

[Sup Kid]

What are the most robust markets?

NYC is the only market that can possibly be considered "robust" and even that isn't really accurate. Robust was 2006-2007, when many firms had 75-100+ SAs, and even smaller NYC firms had 50. Now, only a few NYC firms have 100+, and a large majority have between 25-40. Other markets have much smaller classes than that. Check out some NALP forms for actual numbers, but mainly, apply to NY, as in, use 1/2 of your bids in NY.

DC is probably the most robust market, even if NYC has the largest SA classes.

People who had 5+ offers for NY firms couldn't get callbacks in DC...

[seriouslyinformative]

...and DC firms and DC offices of firms aren't, in general, doing super well in this economy.

[Renzo]

...and DC firms and DC offices of firms aren't, in general, doing super well in this economy.

I don't agree. The bread-and-butter work of DC firms isn't as cyclical as that of NYC firms. Regulatory work doesn't really go away in a downturn, nor does appellate litigation, nor compliance work. Antitrust work can dry up when there's no M&A activity. And political work could slow down in a downturn, but it's done the opposite recently--all those banks and hospitals have been rolling out the big guns as new regs get promulgated to interpret Dodd-Frank, the CFPA, and the ACA.

[Machine Spirit]

DC is probably the most robust market, even if NYC has the largest SA classes.

Strange definition of "robust."

[Renzo]

DC is probably the most robust market, even if NYC has the largest SA classes.

Strange definition of "robust."

I don't think it's that strange.

It's not the largest market, nor the easiest to get hired into. But, its' the least prone to wild swings of hiring and layoffs, with the least cyclical types of work, and with the least exposure to the business cycles of other industries. That seems robust to me.

[MrAnon]

...and DC firms and DC offices of firms aren't, in general, doing super well in this economy.

I don't agree. The bread-and-butter work of DC firms isn't as cyclical as that of NYC firms. Regulatory work doesn't really go away in a downturn, nor does appellate litigation, nor compliance work. Antitrust work can dry up when there's no M&A activity. And political work could slow down in a downturn, but it's done the opposite recently--all those banks and hospitals have been rolling out the big guns as new regs get promulgated to interpret Dodd-Frank, the CFPA, and the ACA.

You may not agree, but the poster above is generally correct about DC firms being slow these days. Why? My guess is because regulatory and compliance work can and does dry up because the government is sensitive to the fact that companies paying millions of dollars to lawyers defending them from investigations can't afford to pay such amounts when credit markets are as dry as a bone and stocks are tanking as they are starting to do now. Appellate work dries up because companies don't want to pay to carry on these arguments any longer. As to the rest of it good luck trying to justify $500/hour rates in this economy. Companies just won't pay that much anymore.

Trying to pick a market that is hot right now is a waste of time. Most have slowed down and most will slow down further as the economy grinds to a halt AGAIN this year, just as it has done each of the last few years.

[Renzo]

...and DC firms and DC offices of firms aren't, in general, doing super well in this economy.

I don't agree. The bread-and-butter work of DC firms isn't as cyclical as that of NYC firms. Regulatory work doesn't really go away in a downturn, nor does appellate litigation, nor compliance work. Antitrust work can dry up when there's no M&A activity. And political work could slow down in a downturn, but it's done the opposite recently--all those banks and hospitals have been rolling out the big guns as new regs get promulgated to interpret Dodd-Frank, the CFPA, and the ACA.

You may not agree, but the poster above is generally correct about DC firms being slow these days. Why? My guess is because regulatory and compliance work can and does dry up because the government is sensitive to the fact that companies paying millions of dollars to lawyers defending them from investigations can't afford to pay such amounts when credit markets are as dry as a bone and stocks are tanking as they are starting to do now. Appellate work dries up because companies don't want to pay to carry on these arguments any longer. As to the rest of it good luck trying to justify $500/hour rates in this economy. Companies just won't pay that much anymore.

Trying to pick a market that is hot right now is a waste of time. Most have slowed down and most will slow down further as the economy grinds to a halt AGAIN this year, just as it has done each of the last few years.

I didn't say things haven't slowed down; only that it's less dramatic than every other market. Just as when it was boom times, it wasn't as dramatic in DC as it was in places where the legal work is finance-related.

If you make widgets in a bad economy, while you'll scrimp, you'll find money to pay the lawyers to keep the EPA from shutting you down, because otherwise you're out of business. But, you won't need lawyers to advise you on potential mergers, because you won't be doing any.

[Headybrah]

do I have any shot at big law top 15% school 40-50

[thesealocust]

do I have any shot at big law top 15% school 40-50

It's possible, but

[Vronsky]

Based on NLP search for expected members in 2011 SA classes in NYC:

Cleary 93
Davis Polk 87
Paul Weiss 80
Simpson Thacher 79
Paul Hastings 71
Weil Gotshal 70
O'melveny 69

Latham 47
Cravath 45

Milbank 38
Shearman 37
Cahill 37
Weil 36
White 35
Ropes 36

[Anonymous User]

Gibson Dunn has 80ish. I don't have the list in front of me, though, so I'm not positive the exact number.

[Vronsky]

Gibson Dunn has 80ish. I don't have the list in front of me, though, so I'm not positive.

I think that's the combined number. The NYC office has 32 this year.

[Sup Kid]

Based on NLP search for expected members in 2011 SA classes in NYC:

Cleary 93
Davis Polk 87
Paul Weiss 80
Simpson Thacher 79
Paul Hastings 71
Weil Gotshal 70
O'melveny 69

Latham 47
Cravath 45

Milbank 38
Shearman 37
Cahill 37
Weil 36
White 35
Ropes 36

Some of these numbers are not accurate. Of just the first group, PH's number should be 23, Weil's should be 36, and OMM's should be 11, based on the NALP NYC forms.

[Anonymous User]

DC is probably the most robust market, even if NYC has the largest SA classes.

Strange definition of "robust."

I'm with Renzo & VAmedic here. My DC firm has >30 SAs and it is so busy that the junior associates are thanking us for taking stuff off their plates (instead of being ticked about losing hours to us).

Yes, it's only one firm-- but I don't imagine we're unique.

Edit to add credit to VAmedic.

[Sup Kid]

I'm with Renzo & VAmedic here. My DC firm has >30 SAs and it is so busy that the junior associates are thanking us for taking stuff off their plates (instead of being ticked about losing hours to us).

Yes, it's only one firm-- but I don't imagine we're unique.

Edit to add credit to VAmedic.

According to NALP, the only firms with expected summer classes of more than 30 this year in DC are Covington (47) and WilmerHale (37), two of the most well-respected firms in the city and ones that you would imagine to be very busy in a rebounding legal market. I'm not saying your argument is wrong -- firms in DC may very well be busy -- but I don't think that information can be found by comparing your firm to all the others. In short, your one firm is indeed possibly unique.

[Vronsky]

Based on NLP search for expected members in 2011 SA classes in NYC:

Cleary 93
Davis Polk 87
Paul Weiss 80
Simpson Thacher 79
Paul Hastings 71
Weil Gotshal 70
O'melveny 69

Latham 47
Cravath 45

Milbank 38
Shearman 37
Cahill 37
Weil 36
White 35
Ropes 36

Some of these numbers are not accurate. Of just the first group, PH's number should be 23, Weil's should be 36, and OMM's should be 11, based on the NALP NYC forms.

--LinkRemoved--

This says Paul Hasting NY office had 83 2L SAs in 2010 and expected 71 2L SAs in 2011.
Weil Gotshal NYC office had 36 in 2010 and expects 70 in 2011.
OMM should be 11. There may be other mistakes, I just quickly scribbled these down.

Does class size correspond to selectivity?

[thesealocust]

Does class size correspond to selectivity?

That's a complicated question. The easiest and best answer is just 'No.' The largest firms are also often some of the most selective, but they're so big that it's not like they can demand top 5% grades from HYS. Some firms with small classes are absurdly selective, others routinely hire median T14 students.

[Sup Kid]

http://www.nalpdirectory.com/dledir_search_quick.asp

This says Paul Hasting NY office had 83 2L SAs in 2010 and expected 71 2L SAs in 2011.
Weil Gotshal NYC office had 36 in 2010 and expects 70 in 2011.
OMM should be 11. There may be other mistakes, I just quickly scribbled these down.

Does class size correspond to selectivity?

You're looking at the multi-office forms for both firms (if you look towards the top, it says "multi-office? Y". If you look at the individual forms for NYC, you'll see much smaller classes.

[Anonymous User]

Current firm has 78 across all offices, with around 48 in the primary office. It's a secondary market firm only, though.