Is The Industry This Bad?

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flexityflex86
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Is The Industry This Bad?

Postby flexityflex86 » Sun Jun 12, 2011 12:25 am

A family friend of my girlfriend's mentioned her daughter's boyfriend is graduating NYU Law, and is jobless, and claimed that ~30% of his graduating class is jobless.

Is this field this bad that t-6 students are not even getting jobs? TLS gets a lot of slack for being more cynical than most of the law student communities out there, but is it possible that TLS is too optimistic? If so, I would rethink attending this fall.

Personally, I'd rather be a middle class lawyer than a filthy rich businessman, and do want to be a lawyer even if that means being a divorce attorney or working in another kind of law I would prefer to stay out of. I want to use the law to be able to make a tangible impact on people's/company's lives on a very personal level.

However, I'd rather be a rich or middle class businessman than a dirt poor lawyer. Having experienced every step on the socioeconomic class system in my short childhood and life, I have realized that there is a gargantuan gap in the quality of life between being poor and middle class, and not too big of a gap unless you're really spoiled between middle class and wealth. While I want to be a lawyer, I do want to be employed.

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thecilent
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Re: Is The Industry This Bad?

Postby thecilent » Sun Jun 12, 2011 12:29 am

Yeah I wouldn't want to be in the bottom 1/3 wherever I went, save maybe yale I wouldn't care that much

flexityflex86
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Re: Is The Industry This Bad?

Postby flexityflex86 » Sun Jun 12, 2011 12:32 am

thecilent wrote:Yeah I wouldn't want to be in the bottom 1/3 wherever I went, save maybe yale I wouldn't care that much

so the issue is he's probably bottom 3rd, but if he had been at median he'd be ok? on this front, is median at duke or uva > bottom 3rd at nyu? the difference between the middle and bottom 3rd is only 17%

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bk1
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Re: Is The Industry This Bad?

Postby bk1 » Sun Jun 12, 2011 12:33 am

flexityflex86 wrote:the difference between the middle and bottom 3rd is only 17%


Math lesson of the day.

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thecilent
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Re: Is The Industry This Bad?

Postby thecilent » Sun Jun 12, 2011 12:34 am

flexityflex86 wrote:
thecilent wrote:Yeah I wouldn't want to be in the bottom 1/3 wherever I went, save maybe yale I wouldn't care that much

so the issue is he's probably bottom 3rd, but if he had been at median he'd be ok? on this front, is median at duke or uva > bottom 3rd at nyu? the difference between the middle and bottom 3rd is only 17%

yeah idk. probably no one really knows.

im sure the friend of a friend of a gf mothers daughter whatever kid had shitty grades and interviewed poorly. probably wouldn't have got a job no matter what school he went to. idk though

Renzo
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Re: Is The Industry This Bad?

Postby Renzo » Sun Jun 12, 2011 12:59 am

flexityflex86 wrote:A family friend of my girlfriend's mentioned her daughter's boyfriend is graduating NYU Law, and is jobless, and claimed that ~30% of his graduating class is jobless.

Is this field this bad that t-6 students are not even getting jobs? TLS gets a lot of slack for being more cynical than most of the law student communities out there, but is it possible that TLS is too optimistic? If so, I would rethink attending this fall.

Personally, I'd rather be a middle class lawyer than a filthy rich businessman, and do want to be a lawyer even if that means being a divorce attorney or working in another kind of law I would prefer to stay out of. I want to use the law to be able to make a tangible impact on people's/company's lives on a very personal level.

However, I'd rather be a rich or middle class businessman than a dirt poor lawyer. Having experienced every step on the socioeconomic class system in my short childhood and life, I have realized that there is a gargantuan gap in the quality of life between being poor and middle class, and not too big of a gap unless you're really spoiled between middle class and wealth. While I want to be a lawyer, I do want to be employed.


30% of the class that just graduated from NYU is not jobless. >30% are not going to biglaw firms, but this doesn't mean jobless. Some did graduate jobless, even a few who really should have been able to get something, but it wasn't that bad.

paulinaporizkova
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Re: Is The Industry This Bad?

Postby paulinaporizkova » Sun Jun 12, 2011 1:52 am

flexityflex86 wrote:
thecilent wrote:Yeah I wouldn't want to be in the bottom 1/3 wherever I went, save maybe yale I wouldn't care that much

so the issue is he's probably bottom 3rd, but if he had been at median he'd be ok? on this front, is median at duke or uva > bottom 3rd at nyu? the difference between the middle and bottom 3rd is only 17%

i love when people start getting into this topic

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dr123
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Re: Is The Industry This Bad?

Postby dr123 » Sun Jun 12, 2011 2:12 am

Some people dont find jobs until they've actually been admitted to the bar.

flcath
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Re: Is The Industry This Bad?

Postby flcath » Sun Jun 12, 2011 2:22 am

Renzo wrote:
flexityflex86 wrote:A family friend of my girlfriend's mentioned her daughter's boyfriend is graduating NYU Law, and is jobless, and claimed that ~30% of his graduating class is jobless.

Is this field this bad that t-6 students are not even getting jobs? TLS gets a lot of slack for being more cynical than most of the law student communities out there, but is it possible that TLS is too optimistic? If so, I would rethink attending this fall.

Personally, I'd rather be a middle class lawyer than a filthy rich businessman, and do want to be a lawyer even if that means being a divorce attorney or working in another kind of law I would prefer to stay out of. I want to use the law to be able to make a tangible impact on people's/company's lives on a very personal level.

However, I'd rather be a rich or middle class businessman than a dirt poor lawyer. Having experienced every step on the socioeconomic class system in my short childhood and life, I have realized that there is a gargantuan gap in the quality of life between being poor and middle class, and not too big of a gap unless you're really spoiled between middle class and wealth. While I want to be a lawyer, I do want to be employed.


30% of the class that just graduated from NYU is not jobless. >30% are not going to biglaw firms, but this doesn't mean jobless. Some did graduate jobless, even a few who really should have been able to get something, but it wasn't that bad.

If I present statistic 'a' and competing statistic 'b' to TLS, or explanation 'x' and competing explanation 'y',

TLS will always choose the more pessimistic one, empirical evidence be damned.

Of course 30% of NYU isn't jobless.

shoeshine
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Re: Is The Industry This Bad?

Postby shoeshine » Sun Jun 12, 2011 2:34 am

"Anecdotal evidence" does not equal fact.

jarofsoup
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Re: Is The Industry This Bad?

Postby jarofsoup » Sun Jun 12, 2011 3:02 am

Lack of work experience or bar passage play an role in this?

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: Is The Industry This Bad?

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Sun Jun 12, 2011 4:08 am

A nice sized group of law students, particularly at the T14, feel as though only prestigious/big law jobs count as jobs.

That's retarded.

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Ipsa Dixit
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Re: Is The Industry This Bad?

Postby Ipsa Dixit » Sun Jun 12, 2011 8:30 am

Graduating without a job as a lawyer =/= never finding a job as a lawyer.

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Ginj
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Re: Is The Industry This Bad?

Postby Ginj » Sun Jun 12, 2011 9:24 am

I know that individual experiences don't account for the whole, but I have a friend who's a 1L at NYU Law with grades below median who's been offered many jobs, including one at a high profile nonprofit, in a secondary market. Granted, it's not NYC or DC, but the NYU name has gotten her somewhere.

Anonymous User
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Re: Is The Industry This Bad?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jun 12, 2011 9:51 am

I work at a public defender's office this summer. Most of the ppl there went to a tttt. I mean one that is almost universally laughed at. If they can get a job, any nyu person can find work somewhere. It may be in buffalo for 30 k, but don't feed me this bs about jobless bc of the market. If u can't get a job from a top school, then its ur fault.

Anonymous User
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Re: Is The Industry This Bad?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jun 12, 2011 10:28 am

Why do ppl continuely fight these numbers. 30% unemployeed seems about right to me. I go to a lower T14 and I would guess about 40% of my class, at least, is unemployeed at graduation (c/o 2011). While grades play some part, there are still a large number of ppl above median without anything. Seriouslly guys, the legal market is awful right now, there is no way around it. Stop trying to rationalize it. Just saying to hustle does not cut it, there are simply more recent law grads than entry level positions. Also, other than biglaw and presitgious federal gigs, the T14 things does not really help that much. Smaller firms do not really care.

Anonymous User
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Re: Is The Industry This Bad?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jun 12, 2011 10:39 am

Responding to what was deleted above, post the 9-months after graduation employment numbers. This crap about 30% unemployed at graduation (while a problem) doesn't take jobs into acct that won't hire til u pass the bar. My school had terrible employment numbers at graduation as a top 30, but 9 month out was still very high and I imagine it will be the same for this current class

Anonymous User
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Re: Is The Industry This Bad?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jun 12, 2011 10:46 am

Anonymous User wrote:Responding to what was deleted above, post the 9-months after graduation employment numbers. This crap about 30% unemployed at graduation (while a problem) doesn't take jobs into acct that won't hire til u pass the bar. My school had terrible employment numbers at graduation as a top 30, but 9 month out was still very high and I imagine it will be the same for this current class


c/o 2011. We graduated less than a month ago. The legal market is brutal and is likely to be only getting worse. Ppl can say to hustle and that you will be fine but its a simple math problem. There are too many entry level lawyers and not enough entry level jobs. The ABA recently published that study that showed only 66% of graduates were working in job that required a JD. The number was probably inflated and included doc review and part timers. The legal market is bad, no reason to pretend otherwise.

timbs4339
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Re: Is The Industry This Bad?

Postby timbs4339 » Sun Jun 12, 2011 12:39 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Responding to what was deleted above, post the 9-months after graduation employment numbers. This crap about 30% unemployed at graduation (while a problem) doesn't take jobs into acct that won't hire til u pass the bar. My school had terrible employment numbers at graduation as a top 30, but 9 month out was still very high and I imagine it will be the same for this current class


c/o 2011. We graduated less than a month ago. The legal market is brutal and is likely to be only getting worse. Ppl can say to hustle and that you will be fine but its a simple math problem. There are too many entry level lawyers and not enough entry level jobs. The ABA recently published that study that showed only 66% of graduates were working in job that required a JD. The number was probably inflated and included doc review and part timers. The legal market is bad, no reason to pretend otherwise.


This is correct. The legal profession does a very poor job of preparing their graduates to add value to firms or organizations. Therefore, the only organizations that can really afford to hire recent graduates at anything above minimum wage are biglaw firms, big PI, clerkships and government organizations (i.e. organizations that have formal training schemes). And when the recession hits and biglaw reduces hiring, government freezes hiring, and clerkships or PI take deferred biglaw associates instead of recent grads, you're going to have a serious supply and demand problem.

This might be fine if novice lawyers could go out and start firms doing what I like to call "people law" -family law, wills and trusts, criminal defense, bankruptcy, etc. But the barriers to entry are so high, it's tough to find clients, you risk committing malpractice because you don't know how to do anything, and most law students are risk-averse.

Then you have the contract and temp attorney jobs, which may provide a living wage but do not teach the skills necessary to be a real lawyer (i.e. how to get and retain clients and build a practice).

MrAnon
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Re: Is The Industry This Bad?

Postby MrAnon » Sun Jun 12, 2011 12:56 pm

Why do ppl continuely fight these numbers. 30% unemployeed seems about right to me. I go to a lower T14 and I would guess about 40% of my class, at least, is unemployeed at graduation (c/o 2011). While grades play some part, there are still a large number of ppl above median without anything. Seriouslly guys, the legal market is awful right now, there is no way around it. Stop trying to rationalize it. Just saying to hustle does not cut it, there are simply more recent law grads than entry level positions. Also, other than biglaw and presitgious federal gigs, the T14 things does not really help that much. Smaller firms do not really care.



This is dead on. Someone reports from the field that 30% of a class is unemployed and everyone runs here to say IT CAN'T BE SO or HE FINISHED BOTTOM 1/3 or HE DIDNT WORK HARD ENOUGH or PEOPLE FROM NYU STILL GET JOBS.

This is an example of the fallacy of believing that things that have happened in the past will continue into the future without change. Of course the law schools will continue marching on for another decade until the clearer picture emerges.

MrAnon
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Re: Is The Industry This Bad?

Postby MrAnon » Sun Jun 12, 2011 1:06 pm

Also there has been a tendency to overestimate the extent of the economic "recovery" of the past year or two years or whatever. All economic signals are pointing to another downturn. Since biglaw firms are reliant on industry for business this bodes poorly for hiring at the top. Firms are already feeling the pinch in a lit and dealmaking slowdown.

Machine Spirit
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Re: Is The Industry This Bad?

Postby Machine Spirit » Sun Jun 12, 2011 1:34 pm

flexityflex86 wrote:A family friend of my girlfriend's mentioned her daughter's boyfriend....


That's some hard-hitting source material.

NotMyRealName09
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Re: Is The Industry This Bad?

Postby NotMyRealName09 » Sun Jun 12, 2011 2:29 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:A nice sized group of law students, particularly at the T14, feel as though only prestigious/big law jobs count as jobs.

That's retarded.


I believe this is right. Anyone from NYU who is "jobless" is only so because they don't want to accept a job somewhere they feel is beneath them, or not in the market they feel entitled to. You know what? You move where the work is. You don't whine like a bitch about the "bad market" because you can't get 160k in NYC.

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pleasetryagain
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Re: Is The Industry This Bad?

Postby pleasetryagain » Sun Jun 12, 2011 2:31 pm

NotMyRealName09 wrote:You don't whine like a bitch about the "bad market" because you can't get 160k in NYC. Fucking move.


Truth. Also, don't forget, we have plenty of drunk drivers and they all need attorneys eventually.

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Julio_El_Chavo
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Re: Is The Industry This Bad?

Postby Julio_El_Chavo » Sun Jun 12, 2011 2:32 pm

Personally, I'd rather be a middle class lawyer than a filthy rich businessman, and do want to be a lawyer even if that means being a divorce attorney or working in another kind of law I would prefer to stay out of.


I would rather cut myself with sharp things than sip margaritas on a beach in the Bahamas.




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