3.21 at Cornell, NYC bidding strategy?

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Re: 3.21 at Cornell, NYC bidding strategy?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 01, 2012 5:18 pm

I'd like to bump this thread, if allowed. I have a 3.26 cornell and am mainly (though certainly by no means limited) to NYC magic circle. What are my chances? And what should i do to maximize chances at magic circle NY?

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Re: 3.21 at Cornell, NYC bidding strategy?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 01, 2012 5:41 pm

Median at Cornell is closer to a 3.45 with the new curve. Most of the substantive classes last semester curved to a 3.5 median.

The new GPA stats are up on symplicity. The average at most NYC biglaw firms seems to be 3.5+ to get a callback, though some seemed to have called back people with as low as a 3.1-3.2.

I wouldn't bother applying to the firms where you miss the GPA cutoff unless you are really close to it. Even then, I wouldn't waste high bids on more than one or two Magic Circle firms as they will definitely be a long shot and seem to be popular choices for almost everyone.

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Re: 3.21 at Cornell, NYC bidding strategy?

Postby BruceWayne » Fri Jun 01, 2012 5:54 pm

rayiner wrote:The US offices of these firms are not particularly prestigious and will regularly take below median people.


They won't go all that far below. NYC and DC firms have very hard line cutoffs that they simply won't dip below without you having some especialy unique qualities. Many of them simply look at the name of your school, transcript, and check to make sure you aren't downright strange (and sometimes not even the latter) at the screening stage.

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Re: 3.21 at Cornell, NYC bidding strategy?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 01, 2012 6:01 pm

So if a firm has a GPA call back low of like 3.1, is that a good firm to bid for? Because most of the magic circles are listing their GPA lows in the 3.1 range.

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Re: 3.21 at Cornell, NYC bidding strategy?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 01, 2012 6:23 pm

Anonymous User wrote:So if a firm has a GPA call back low of like 3.1, is that a good firm to bid for? Because most of the magic circles are listing their GPA lows in the 3.1 range.


Depends on a number of factors. Are you on LR? Secondary journal? Are you a URM? Are you fluent in a language that is in high demand/short supply? Do you have incredible work experience? Are you an awesome interviewer? Etc, etc.

My guess is that the very few people who are called back near the GPA floors of NYC biglaw have at least a few of these factors.

Almost everyone at Cornell wants biglaw, but not everyone has the grades for it. These firms with low GPA floors will therefore be the most attractive for people with lower GPAs.

Unless you are crazy, conventional wisdom says to bid on a few reaches and to spend most of your high bids on firms where you realistically have a shot. Better to have a job than to strike out and have enormous debt for decades because you made unreasonable bids.

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Re: 3.21 at Cornell, NYC bidding strategy?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 01, 2012 6:33 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:So if a firm has a GPA call back low of like 3.1, is that a good firm to bid for? Because most of the magic circles are listing their GPA lows in the 3.1 range.


Depends on a number of factors. Are you on LR? Secondary journal? Are you a URM? Are you fluent in a language that is in high demand/short supply? Do you have incredible work experience? Are you an awesome interviewer? Etc, etc.

My guess is that the very few people who are called back near the GPA floors of NYC biglaw have at least a few of these factors.

Almost everyone at Cornell wants biglaw, but not everyone has the grades for it. These firms with low GPA floors will therefore be the most attractive for people with lower GPAs.

Unless you are crazy, conventional wisdom says to bid on a few reaches and to spend most of your high bids on firms where you realistically have a shot. Better to have a job than to strike out and have enormous debt for decades because you made unreasonable bids.


Much thanks for the advice. OP here. Still waiting on journal news. Don't have great work experience (have 1 year of work experience doing fundraising consulting). I am fluent in mandarin (may even try to learn cantonese this summer).

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Re: 3.21 at Cornell, NYC bidding strategy?

Postby woeisme » Fri Jun 01, 2012 6:37 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
OP, ask career services for the gpa list for firms, they have it. Honestly though, 3.2 seems low even for the boon years. good luck though.


No way. In boom years, all but 2-3 students got OCU jobs. The cutoff was more like a 2.75ish. Cut off was like a 3.45 for class of 2011 and it's getting easier each year again. I'd say OP has a 50/50 shot of getting OCI call backs/offers this year. Hed be fucked if he were class of 2011. He's still in it though.

OP bid on specialized firms that have focused practice groups and that don't emphasize GPA. Talk to career services (although, let's be honest... Career services is largely worthless...).

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Re: 3.21 at Cornell, NYC bidding strategy?

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Fri Jun 01, 2012 6:49 pm

Career Services really ought to be telling you what firms you can into with your grades. Ask. In general, though, aim for the lower half of the V100, minus a couple of outliers (Patterson Belknap is the big one that jumps to mind, maybe others).

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Re: 3.21 at Cornell, NYC bidding strategy?

Postby rayiner » Fri Jun 01, 2012 7:04 pm

dixiecupdrinking wrote:Career Services really ought to be telling you what firms you can into with your grades. Ask. In general, though, aim for the lower half of the V100, minus a couple of outliers (Patterson Belknap is the big one that jumps to mind, maybe others).


I think there is no particular difference between V50-100 and V25-50 for the purposes of bidding. Indeed, I would tell OP to be careful about underbidding. He should definitely bid on V50 firms with big classes like Fried Frank, Linklaters, Proskauer, etc.

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Re: 3.21 at Cornell, NYC bidding strategy?

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Fri Jun 01, 2012 7:14 pm

rayiner wrote:
dixiecupdrinking wrote:Career Services really ought to be telling you what firms you can into with your grades. Ask. In general, though, aim for the lower half of the V100, minus a couple of outliers (Patterson Belknap is the big one that jumps to mind, maybe others).


I think there is no particular difference between V50-100 and V25-50 for the purposes of bidding. Indeed, I would tell OP to be careful about underbidding. He should definitely bid on V50 firms with big classes like Fried Frank, Linklaters, Proskauer, etc.

This is probably accurate. I had thought there were more very grade conscious firms mixed in the V25-50 range but looking at it now I see you're right, none jump out as especially selective. (Maybe Milbank, I've heard rumors of them being a little more choosey than one might expect.)

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Re: 3.21 at Cornell, NYC bidding strategy?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:25 pm

I hope this gets noticed: last year, for some reason, bidding on magic circle firms was insanely popular at Cornell. You can ask career services--they said more people bid on magic circle than ever before. As a result, it got much more competitive for those firms. Plenty of people bid magic circle firms #1 and didn't even get interviews with them. It sounds like this is gonna be the trend again (based on OP's post and another one on TLS right now from Cornell - both asking about chances for magic circle firms in NYC)

I was median-ish and did well for my #s at Cornell's OCI last year, and am very happy at the firm I chose - but I regret being pulled in by the allure of magic circle and bidding aggressively on those firms, because they wound up being really popular and therefore competitive.

That said: I would except clifford chance from the above....they seem to particularly love Cornellians

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Re: 3.21 at Cornell, NYC bidding strategy?

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:28 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I hope this gets noticed: last year, for some reason, bidding on magic circle firms was insanely popular at Cornell. You can ask career services--they said more people bid on magic circle than ever before. As a result, it got much more competitive for those firms. Plenty of people bid magic circle firms #1 and didn't even get interviews with them. It sounds like this is gonna be the trend again (based on OP's post and another one on TLS right now from Cornell - both asking about chances for magic circle firms in NYC)

I was median-ish and did well for my #s at Cornell's OCI last year, and am very happy at the firm I chose - but I regret being pulled in by the allure of magic circle and bidding aggressively on those firms, because they wound up being really popular and therefore competitive.

That said: I would except clifford chance from the above....they seem to particularly love Cornellians

Why does everyone like these firms so much? Their U.S. offices seem relatively middling in the scheme of things. Are they especially good places to go if you want to do cross-border stuff or something?

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Re: 3.21 at Cornell, NYC bidding strategy?

Postby booboo » Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:32 pm

dixiecupdrinking wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I hope this gets noticed: last year, for some reason, bidding on magic circle firms was insanely popular at Cornell. You can ask career services--they said more people bid on magic circle than ever before. As a result, it got much more competitive for those firms. Plenty of people bid magic circle firms #1 and didn't even get interviews with them. It sounds like this is gonna be the trend again (based on OP's post and another one on TLS right now from Cornell - both asking about chances for magic circle firms in NYC)

I was median-ish and did well for my #s at Cornell's OCI last year, and am very happy at the firm I chose - but I regret being pulled in by the allure of magic circle and bidding aggressively on those firms, because they wound up being really popular and therefore competitive.

That said: I would except clifford chance from the above....they seem to particularly love Cornellians

Why does everyone like these firms so much? Their U.S. offices seem relatively middling in the scheme of things. Are they especially good places to go if you want to do cross-border stuff or something?


Because the myth of international law doesn't want to die. /sarcasm?

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Re: 3.21 at Cornell, NYC bidding strategy?

Postby lawyerwannabe » Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:34 pm

Not necessarily relevant to this specific thread, but what does median-ish mean when people talk about it (e.g. like top 45 - 55% of class)?

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Re: 3.21 at Cornell, NYC bidding strategy?

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:35 pm

booboo wrote:
dixiecupdrinking wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I hope this gets noticed: last year, for some reason, bidding on magic circle firms was insanely popular at Cornell. You can ask career services--they said more people bid on magic circle than ever before. As a result, it got much more competitive for those firms. Plenty of people bid magic circle firms #1 and didn't even get interviews with them. It sounds like this is gonna be the trend again (based on OP's post and another one on TLS right now from Cornell - both asking about chances for magic circle firms in NYC)

I was median-ish and did well for my #s at Cornell's OCI last year, and am very happy at the firm I chose - but I regret being pulled in by the allure of magic circle and bidding aggressively on those firms, because they wound up being really popular and therefore competitive.

That said: I would except clifford chance from the above....they seem to particularly love Cornellians

Why does everyone like these firms so much? Their U.S. offices seem relatively middling in the scheme of things. Are they especially good places to go if you want to do cross-border stuff or something?


Because the myth of international law doesn't want to die. /sarcasm?

I mean, I sort of suspect that's exactly the reason but I'm trying to give people the benefit of the doubt. I know I interviewed with a couple of the Magic Circle firms after putting them on my schedule because "why not, I like London," and they turned out to be pretty poor matches for what I was looking for.

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Re: 3.21 at Cornell, NYC bidding strategy?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:44 pm

Pardon my ignorance, but what exactly is a Magic Circle firm?
THanks,

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Re: 3.21 at Cornell, NYC bidding strategy?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:46 pm

dixiecupdrinking wrote:
booboo wrote:
dixiecupdrinking wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I hope this gets noticed: last year, for some reason, bidding on magic circle firms was insanely popular at Cornell. You can ask career services--they said more people bid on magic circle than ever before. As a result, it got much more competitive for those firms. Plenty of people bid magic circle firms #1 and didn't even get interviews with them. It sounds like this is gonna be the trend again (based on OP's post and another one on TLS right now from Cornell - both asking about chances for magic circle firms in NYC)

I was median-ish and did well for my #s at Cornell's OCI last year, and am very happy at the firm I chose - but I regret being pulled in by the allure of magic circle and bidding aggressively on those firms, because they wound up being really popular and therefore competitive.

That said: I would except clifford chance from the above....they seem to particularly love Cornellians

Why does everyone like these firms so much? Their U.S. offices seem relatively middling in the scheme of things. Are they especially good places to go if you want to do cross-border stuff or something?


Because the myth of international law doesn't want to die. /sarcasm?

I mean, I sort of suspect that's exactly the reason but I'm trying to give people the benefit of the doubt. I know I interviewed with a couple of the Magic Circle firms after putting them on my schedule because "why not, I like London," and they turned out to be pretty poor matches for what I was looking for.


I'm the original anon and yes-- I admit the bolded was true for me. I actually wound up taking international law (the class) 2L year and realized I really hated it. I think it's just very sexy to people, and you feel like you "should" go that direction if you came to law school proclaiming yourself as a foreign-language-speaker/world-traveller/"global citizen." I realize that all sounds very cheesy but it's my best explanation for why they were so popular--at least to me.

(This isn't to say those firms aren't a great fit if that's what you are truly without-a-doubt passionate about, so don't let this dissuade you - but at least bid on a broad array of "types" of firms and keep your options open).

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Re: 3.21 at Cornell, NYC bidding strategy?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:48 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I hope this gets noticed: last year, for some reason, bidding on magic circle firms was insanely popular at Cornell. You can ask career services--they said more people bid on magic circle than ever before. As a result, it got much more competitive for those firms. Plenty of people bid magic circle firms #1 and didn't even get interviews with them. It sounds like this is gonna be the trend again (based on OP's post and another one on TLS right now from Cornell - both asking about chances for magic circle firms in NYC)

I was median-ish and did well for my #s at Cornell's OCI last year, and am very happy at the firm I chose - but I regret being pulled in by the allure of magic circle and bidding aggressively on those firms, because they wound up being really popular and therefore competitive.

That said: I would except clifford chance from the above....they seem to particularly love Cornellians


Seems like it will be the same this year. Almost everyone I've talked to is going to bid for at least a few Magic Circle firms. I guess everyone wants to be a part of the whole "international" thing.

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Re: 3.21 at Cornell, NYC bidding strategy?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:57 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I hope this gets noticed: last year, for some reason, bidding on magic circle firms was insanely popular at Cornell. You can ask career services--they said more people bid on magic circle than ever before. As a result, it got much more competitive for those firms. Plenty of people bid magic circle firms #1 and didn't even get interviews with them. It sounds like this is gonna be the trend again (based on OP's post and another one on TLS right now from Cornell - both asking about chances for magic circle firms in NYC)

I was median-ish and did well for my #s at Cornell's OCI last year, and am very happy at the firm I chose - but I regret being pulled in by the allure of magic circle and bidding aggressively on those firms, because they wound up being really popular and therefore competitive.

That said: I would except clifford chance from the above....they seem to particularly love Cornellians


Hmmm, is there anyway, this person can get into contact with me and provide some more info? ie. what firm you ended up going to, what your bid list was like, GPA, journal, etc? I realize neither one of us wants to reveal our identities, which can be a problem.

Also, I am not the OP (3.21 person), I am the hijacker (3.26 person wanting magic circle). In that vein, I started the other 3.26 thread as well, but this one seemed to get way more attention. In any case, it is true - I personally know quite a few people who want to do magic circle, and we all pretty much have a foreign language fluency (mandarin, japanese, or korean) and some international work experience. It's tough, cuz I know those people have way higher GPAs.

I personally don't want to do international law as it is popularly conceived. Took an international law class in undergrad and hated it. But i am interested in corporate transactions, and I am interested in working in Asia. Magic circle seems like the best i can do without going higher up the prestige ladder on vault, which I hear is necessary for lateraling to asia.

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Re: 3.21 at Cornell, NYC bidding strategy?

Postby ajaxconstructions » Fri Jun 01, 2012 10:08 pm

Median at Cornell is at least a 3.45. Probably more like a 3.5. Sounds like you are well below median. Adjust your expectations.

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Re: 3.21 at Cornell, NYC bidding strategy?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 01, 2012 10:21 pm

ajaxconstructions wrote:Median at Cornell is at least a 3.45. Probably more like a 3.5. Sounds like you are well below median. Adjust your expectations.


I know those doing Cornell OCI this year got high gpa/low gpa info for callbacks for firms this year (we didn't get this last year--at least not the actual #s). An annoying amount of busywork but if you're bored, I'd put all of this data into an excel doc to give yourself a better idea of what the #s looked like for callbacks. Did they give you guys the "average" or just the high/low? The average GPA for each firm would be clutch to put into a spreadsheet

I love excel and it sounds psycho to do that but I think it could be pretty revealing for bid strategizing

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Re: 3.21 at Cornell, NYC bidding strategy?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 01, 2012 10:25 pm

some sort of international ties seem to be key with the magic circle firms, especially if you want to work in an office abroad.

OP, any chance you are doing something international this summer?

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Re: 3.21 at Cornell, NYC bidding strategy?

Postby ajaxconstructions » Fri Jun 01, 2012 10:32 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
ajaxconstructions wrote:Median at Cornell is at least a 3.45. Probably more like a 3.5. Sounds like you are well below median. Adjust your expectations.


I know those doing Cornell OCI this year got high gpa/low gpa info for callbacks for firms this year (we didn't get this last year--at least not the actual #s). An annoying amount of busywork but if you're bored, I'd put all of this data into an excel doc to give yourself a better idea of what the #s looked like for callbacks. Did they give you guys the "average" or just the high/low? The average GPA for each firm would be clutch to put into a spreadsheet

I love excel and it sounds psycho to do that but I think it could be pretty revealing for bid strategizing


High, low, and average. Average for most market paying firms were around a 3.5. Some asshole fucked up the high with his 4.1. URMs took the lows obviously.

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Re: 3.21 at Cornell, NYC bidding strategy?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 01, 2012 10:39 pm

ajaxconstructions wrote:Median at Cornell is at least a 3.45. Probably more like a 3.5. Sounds like you are well below median. Adjust your expectations.


OP Hijacker here: I realize cornell's actual median is gonna be higher, but from what i hear the the firms only see the stated 3.35? Talked to CSO last semester, when I had even lower, and they said I was in the "top half of the bottom half". In any case, when you say "adjust your expectations," can you give an idea/picture of what those expectations look like?

Also, am not working internationally this summer. Doing an RA + internship at the school's regulation clinic. My international experience = 1 summer in China at a Chinese IP law firm. Mostly did copy-editing, research, and translation. Am fluent in mandarin, but these days, who isn't?

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Re: 3.21 at Cornell, NYC bidding strategy?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:15 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
ajaxconstructions wrote:Median at Cornell is at least a 3.45. Probably more like a 3.5. Sounds like you are well below median. Adjust your expectations.


OP Hijacker here: I realize cornell's actual median is gonna be higher, but from what i hear the the firms only see the stated 3.35? Talked to CSO last semester, when I had even lower, and they said I was in the "top half of the bottom half". In any case, when you say "adjust your expectations," can you give an idea/picture of what those expectations look like?

Also, am not working internationally this summer. Doing an RA + internship at the school's regulation clinic. My international experience = 1 summer in China at a Chinese IP law firm. Mostly did copy-editing, research, and translation. Am fluent in mandarin, but these days, who isn't?


no, the firms definitely can see that the median has changed--to leave such information undisclosed would very likely constitute fraud.

from what i understand from derosa's career services meeting, they probably put it in very inconspicuous font last year. only a matter of time before employers catch on though.

i agree in that perhaps your expectations should be adjusted a bit. that's not to say that you shouldn't apply to the magic circle altogether, but like you said, there are countless numbers of chinese-speaking JD candidates in the T14, many of whom have some incredible work experience and grades. do you really want to end up working overseas?




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