Boalt 3L worth returning to school? (Employment Prospects)

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thecynic69
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Re: Boalt 3L worth returning to school? (Employment Prospects)

Postby thecynic69 » Thu Jun 09, 2011 11:22 pm

thesealocust wrote:
shoeshine wrote:You argument only makes sense if he had paid the "sunk costs" out of pocket. Since he borrowed it in loans he can't just forget those costs. He has to pay them back. It is true that the money he already borrowed he will have to pay back either way but he needs to consider if finishing will put him in a better position to pay those loans back. Thus the debt is relevant.

If he isn't retarded (he sounds like he might be) then the JD should give him greater earning potential over his lifetime.

Had he paid it all in cash I would agree that your sunk cost theory holds more weight.


oh my god. This post is aggressively unintelligent. This is like, what happens when stupid takes steroids and flies into a blind rage, hell bent on destroying rational thought and any opportunity for intellectual advancement it sees. I may actually dumber for having clicked 'view new posts' and read this post.

I think my brain might be bleeding.

Edit: I just reread it. This is actually the stupidest thing I have ever seen somebody attempt to articulate on TLS. This is it. This is the high (low?) watermark. This is as bad as it gets.


+1, thanks!

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vanwinkle
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Re: Boalt 3L worth returning to school? (Employment Prospects)

Postby vanwinkle » Thu Jun 09, 2011 11:57 pm

thecynic69 wrote:All you are telling me is that cost of attending next year is effectively 0. It is still the case that OP's sunk costs do not matter in the way I suggested: the fact that he has spent 100k for a "good" does not mean he should therefore spend more on that "good".

These two sentences, back to back, make no sense to me First, you admit that the cost of attending next year is "effectively 0". Then, you say your argument is that OP should not "spend more" on obtaining his degree. But if the cost of the final year of that degree is "effectively 0", how is he spending "more" to get it?

That's my point. There is no "spending more" if your effective cost of completion is 0. Sunk costs are sunk, but those sunk costs have created a situation where you have effectively no remaining costs, it's foolish not to finish.

thecynic69
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Re: Boalt 3L worth returning to school? (Employment Prospects)

Postby thecynic69 » Fri Jun 10, 2011 1:05 am

vanwinkle wrote:
thecynic69 wrote:All you are telling me is that cost of attending next year is effectively 0. It is still the case that OP's sunk costs do not matter in the way I suggested: the fact that he has spent 100k for a "good" does not mean he should therefore spend more on that "good".

These two sentences, back to back, make no sense to me First, you admit that the cost of attending next year is "effectively 0". Then, you say your argument is that OP should not "spend more" on obtaining his degree. But if the cost of the final year of that degree is "effectively 0", how is he spending "more" to get it?

That's my point. There is no "spending more" if your effective cost of completion is 0. Sunk costs are sunk, but those sunk costs have created a situation where you have effectively no remaining costs, it's foolish not to finish.


I never said it was foolish to finish given next year is effectively free. I already agreed your point is valid and good--there is no spending more. All I'm saying is your point doesn't constitute an objection to the sunk costs analysis. All I ever said is op should not decide to spend more because he has spent some; I never said he should not pay zero bucks to get a Boalt degree. The sunk costs argument isn't bullshit, this is just a case where, even ignoring sunk costs (as you should), there is reason to continue on. I'll say one last time: the sunk costs argument was never that he should ignore his sunk costs and not continue on, but only that he should not justify whatever costs required to continue on by reference to costs he has already incurred.

Is it clear now?

seatown12
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Re: Boalt 3L worth returning to school? (Employment Prospects)

Postby seatown12 » Fri Jun 10, 2011 1:22 am

vanwinkle understands sunk costs he just pointed out that such analysis is inapplicable here because of an unusual factual scenario.

Bottom line is you both agree that OP is making a mistake, as do I.

thecynic69
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Re: Boalt 3L worth returning to school? (Employment Prospects)

Postby thecynic69 » Fri Jun 10, 2011 2:00 am

seatown12 wrote:vanwinkle understands sunk costs he just pointed out that such analysis is inapplicable here because of an unusual factual scenario.

Bottom line is you both agree that OP is making a mistake, as do I.


And I'm saying that if you understand the logic behind my reference to sunk costs, you won't say things like sunk cost analysis doesn't apply here. All I said is you should never use sunk costs to justify future costs. I agree vanwinkle isn't trying to use sunk costs to justify future costs, but it doesn't mean he should say the sunk costs argument is bs. It isn't bs and it is absolutely applicable (even if such analysis ultimately suggests op should go back to school).

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robotclubmember
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Re: Boalt 3L worth returning to school? (Employment Prospects)

Postby robotclubmember » Fri Jun 10, 2011 8:58 am

thecynic69 wrote:
seatown12 wrote:vanwinkle understands sunk costs he just pointed out that such analysis is inapplicable here because of an unusual factual scenario.

Bottom line is you both agree that OP is making a mistake, as do I.


And I'm saying that if you understand the logic behind my reference to sunk costs, you won't say things like sunk cost analysis doesn't apply here. All I said is you should never use sunk costs to justify future costs. I agree vanwinkle isn't trying to use sunk costs to justify future costs, but it doesn't mean he should say the sunk costs argument is bs. It isn't bs and it is absolutely applicable (even if such analysis ultimately suggests op should go back to school).


It's true-ish that you shouldn't use sunk costs to justify future costs. But if we say all cost and all effort is sunk at this point, then what we're looking at is a guy who can graduate with a JD from Boalt in one year for maybe $50K tuition at an opportunity cost of one year's salary of $65K. Ultimately we're in agreement, his first poor choice was enrolling in law school, his second one is going to be not finishing it after two years at top 25%. But his sunk costs still matter in the sense that, while they may not justify the future cost, they reduce the future cost of a JD by 2/3. That said, I don't think a finance job at $65K which could carry a trajectory that takes him into 6 figures in ten years or so is one that pays so little that it will render him dependent on IBR. I think he'll be paying these loans off the hard way. And I'd definitely agree that one year tuition plus negative one year's salary is a heavy burden if you're never planning on using the law degree.

harborleaguemvp
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Re: Boalt 3L worth returning to school? (Employment Prospects)

Postby harborleaguemvp » Fri Jun 10, 2011 3:37 pm

I'm roughly in the same boat as OP., 3.36 last semester but Con law through that for a loop this semester. Struck out at OCI, I think 0/26??? something along those lines, but I am a transfer student from a TTTT so I saw it coming. Once I got Berkeley grades and started mass mailing, the general response was prettty positive and I was able to secure an internship at a reputable firm in a smaller market, granted its unpaid, but it was nice feeling to know my grades meant something. I will be going through OCI again and realize that it is a long-shot to land a gig, but attitude is everything.

boaltrising3l
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Re: Boalt 3L worth returning to school? (Employment Prospects)

Postby boaltrising3l » Fri Jun 10, 2011 4:15 pm

You are getting paid nothing to work at a for profit firm... I'm not even sure that's legal and that seems even less prestigious than any gov gig. What kind of firm would even take an unpaid 2L intern?

harborleaguemvp
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Re: Boalt 3L worth returning to school? (Employment Prospects)

Postby harborleaguemvp » Fri Jun 10, 2011 4:23 pm

Its a different business model than most firms: 55 partners and 6 associates. Figured I would sacrifice the short term reality of not being paid for the prospect of being hired long term.

Anonymous User
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Re: Boalt 3L worth returning to school? (Employment Prospects)

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 10, 2011 4:30 pm

Not sure if this has alredy been mentioned in the thread, but is this not solid evidence that Boalt was foolish to switch to an H/P grading system?

harborleaguemvp
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Re: Boalt 3L worth returning to school? (Employment Prospects)

Postby harborleaguemvp » Fri Jun 10, 2011 4:33 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Not sure if this has alredy been mentioned in the thread, but is this not solid evidence that Boalt was foolish to switch to an H/P grading system?


Yes

09042014
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Re: Boalt 3L worth returning to school? (Employment Prospects)

Postby 09042014 » Fri Jun 10, 2011 4:35 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Not sure if this has alredy been mentioned in the thread, but is this not solid evidence that Boalt was foolish to switch to an H/P grading system?


It could be a reflection of the bad economy in California and the limited national pull boalt has.

But I think their grading system is pretty awful. It's not the time to have the entire bottom of your class indistinguishable from the very worst. IMO they needed an LP, and they should have gotten rid of the HH.

Also make no mistake about it. There are top 1/3rd graduates from every school who don't have a job.

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canon
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Re: Boalt 3L worth returning to school? (Employment Prospects)

Postby canon » Fri Jun 10, 2011 4:43 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Not sure if this has alredy been mentioned in the thread, but is this not solid evidence that Boalt was foolish to switch to an H/P grading system?


It could be a reflection of the bad economy in California and the limited national pull boalt has.


OP stated he only bid on California, prioritizing transactional.

boaltrising3l
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Re: Boalt 3L worth returning to school? (Employment Prospects)

Postby boaltrising3l » Fri Jun 10, 2011 5:03 pm

So I've decided to stay in school and turned down the job offer. FWIW i think top 20% grades at boalt should lead at minimum to state clerkship or a fed gig. 10 Year repayment job v 25 year repayment was the winning factor.

Now why does boalt have its grading system? It's horrible and has no merit and if you have all Ps you are almost certainly screwed for jobs.

BUT, Any reform to this system in the past has been vehemently opposed by minority groups, I'm not even going to attempt to tread further in these waters. Just know that the basic principle behind our grading system is that its an affirmative action project. I'm sure you can do the math in your heads.

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BackToTheOldHouse
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Re: Boalt 3L worth returning to school? (Employment Prospects)

Postby BackToTheOldHouse » Fri Jun 10, 2011 5:06 pm

boaltrising3l wrote:So I've decided to stay in school and turned down the job offer. FWIW i think top 20% grades at boalt should lead at minimum to state clerkship or a fed gig. 10 Year repayment job v 25 year repayment was the winning factor.

Now why does boalt have its grading system? It's horrible and has no merit and if you have all Ps you are almost certainly screwed for jobs.

BUT, Any reform to this system in the past has been vehemently opposed by minority groups, I'm not even going to attempt to tread further in these waters. Just know that the basic principle behind our grading system is that its an affirmative action project. I'm sure you can do the math in your heads.

Confirmed: FLAME.

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Rock-N-Roll
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Re: Boalt 3L worth returning to school? (Employment Prospects)

Postby Rock-N-Roll » Fri Jun 10, 2011 5:13 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:It could be a reflection of the bad economy in California and the limited national pull boalt has.


Really? Desert Fox, are you able to substantiate your claim with any hard data? This kind of off-handed and unsubstantiated jab at Boalt just seems like another example of classic anti-Boalt TLS trolling.

Anecdotal claims regarding Boalt's national placement have been repeatedly countered on TLS by Boalt TLSers who say (also anecdotally) that those claims just aren't true.

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Rock-N-Roll
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Re: Boalt 3L worth returning to school? (Employment Prospects)

Postby Rock-N-Roll » Fri Jun 10, 2011 5:16 pm

boaltrising3l wrote:So I've decided to stay in school and turned down the job offer. FWIW i think top 20% grades at boalt should lead at minimum to state clerkship or a fed gig. 10 Year repayment job v 25 year repayment was the winning factor.

Now why does boalt have its grading system? It's horrible and has no merit and if you have all Ps you are almost certainly screwed for jobs.

BUT, Any reform to this system in the past has been vehemently opposed by minority groups, I'm not even going to attempt to tread further in these waters. Just know that the basic principle behind our grading system is that its an affirmative action project. I'm sure you can do the math in your heads.



WHAT??? Now I truly pray you are a flame.

Z3RO
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Re: Boalt 3L worth returning to school? (Employment Prospects)

Postby Z3RO » Fri Jun 10, 2011 5:21 pm

boaltrising3l wrote:You are getting paid nothing to work at a for profit firm... I'm not even sure that's legal and that seems even less prestigious than any gov gig. What kind of firm would even take an unpaid 2L intern?


Wait, isn't this really common, especially for people their first year? Am I fundamentally misunderstanding things?

boaltrising3l wrote:So I've decided to stay in school and turned down the job offer. FWIW i think top 20% grades at boalt should lead at minimum to state clerkship or a fed gig. 10 Year repayment job v 25 year repayment was the winning factor.


Aren't those jobs like, harder to get than what you were shooting for to begin with?

boaltrising3l
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Re: Boalt 3L worth returning to school? (Employment Prospects)

Postby boaltrising3l » Fri Jun 10, 2011 5:31 pm

The story of what happened with grade reform is well known among the professors. Go ask them. Not Flame, not sure why it would be called flame, the system makes perfect sense.

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Rock-N-Roll
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Re: Boalt 3L worth returning to school? (Employment Prospects)

Postby Rock-N-Roll » Fri Jun 10, 2011 5:39 pm

boaltrising3l wrote:The story of what happened with grade reform is well known among the professors. Go ask them. Not Flame, not sure why it would be called flame, the system makes perfect sense.


The hope that you are a flame is because you are being kind of a jackass right now.

shoeshine
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Re: Boalt 3L worth returning to school? (Employment Prospects)

Postby shoeshine » Fri Jun 10, 2011 5:45 pm

boaltrising3l wrote:BUT, Any reform to this system in the past has been vehemently opposed by minority groups, I'm not even going to attempt to tread further in these waters. Just know that the basic principle behind our grading system is that its an affirmative action project. I'm sure you can do the math in your heads.

So an HH/H/P grading system benefits minorities? Are you saying that minorities would be hurt by a normal grading curve?

boaltrising3l
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Re: Boalt 3L worth returning to school? (Employment Prospects)

Postby boaltrising3l » Fri Jun 10, 2011 5:50 pm

That's what the statistical evidence showed when they proposed changing it. I really don't want to comment further as this is a very sensitive topic and I don't think TLS needs another debate. All I meant to do is try explain why Boalt uses a really stupid grading system by giving you guys background of what happens when faculty has tried to reform it.

I'm not being a jackass, I'm just relaying facts. You wanted an explanation on why Boalt has its grading system, there it is.

thecynic69
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Re: Boalt 3L worth returning to school? (Employment Prospects)

Postby thecynic69 » Fri Jun 10, 2011 6:32 pm

boaltrising3l wrote:That's what the statistical evidence showed when they proposed changing it. I really don't want to comment further as this is a very sensitive topic and I don't think TLS needs another debate. All I meant to do is try explain why Boalt uses a really stupid grading system by giving you guys background of what happens when faculty has tried to reform it.

I'm not being a jackass, I'm just relaying facts. You wanted an explanation on why Boalt has its grading system, there it is.


If this guy is a troll, he deserves some kind of award--most patient/subtle/strategic troll in the world.

boaltrising3l
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Re: Boalt 3L worth returning to school? (Employment Prospects)

Postby boaltrising3l » Fri Jun 10, 2011 6:39 pm

I'm going to request this topic be closed by Mods, If you wanna have a topic about Boalts grading system and how it ruins our employment prospects I'm fine with that. There are many things going on on the inside of Boalt that many do not know.

This topic has been exhausted if you wanna link to a boalt grading system discussion thread I'm down for that, but this topic has run its course. I appreciate all the advice, let's close it.

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bilbobaggins
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Re: Boalt 3L worth returning to school? (Employment Prospects)

Postby bilbobaggins » Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:28 pm

boaltrising3l wrote:I'm going to request this topic be closed by Mods, If you wanna have a topic about Boalts grading system and how it ruins our employment prospects I'm fine with that. There are many things going on on the inside of Boalt that many do not know.

This topic has been exhausted if you wanna link to a boalt grading system discussion thread I'm down for that, but this topic has run its course. I appreciate all the advice, let's close it.


Yeah, this is a blatant troll. Even if he goes to Boalt, what he's said is BS. There's no such debate going on and perspectives on grading have nothing to do with ethnicity. It is ridiculous that it's even been suggested.




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