Boalt 3L worth returning to school? (Employment Prospects)

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timbs4339
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Re: Boalt 3L worth returning to school? (Employment Prospects)

Postby timbs4339 » Tue Jun 07, 2011 6:47 pm

canon wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
canon wrote:How do you know your class rank if Boalt doesn't disclose rank except for those applying to clerkships?


Educated guessing. Straight P's has got to be about bottom third.


Even though Top 25% at Boalt can sometimes strike out at OCI, I find it really hard to believe this anecdote wasn't just a botched instance due to poor bidding (as OP stated) and/or interview skills, especially when you hear of people with straight Ps getting biglaw. Hell, I even met a 1L at ASW who is SAing. So what gives?


It's scary as hell to know that even if you get top 25% at a T10 law school, your entire career trajectory could turn on not just which firms you decide to allocate your limited bids to at 2L OCI, but even how you order those firms. It just shows how there are dozens of ways to get tripped up during this process that 0Ls should be aware of.

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thesealocust
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Re: Boalt 3L worth returning to school? (Employment Prospects)

Postby thesealocust » Tue Jun 07, 2011 6:47 pm

canon wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
canon wrote:How do you know your class rank if Boalt doesn't disclose rank except for those applying to clerkships?


Educated guessing. Straight P's has got to be about bottom third.


Even though Top 25% at Boalt can sometimes strike out at OCI, I find it really hard to believe this anecdote wasn't just a botched instance due to poor bidding (as OP stated) and/or interview skills, especially when you hear of people with straight Ps getting biglaw. Hell, I even met a 1L at ASW who is SAing. So what gives?


Canon, what you will realize soon is that you don't have to screw up to fail to get a job with good grades from a top law school in this economy. It's absolutely true that people with top quarter credentials at Boalt will have great prospects in the market - but it's just as true that many of them will fail to have something come through without egregious mistakes of bidding or interviewing.

Interviewing isn't like law school admissions - nobody is an autoadmit at any firm, and the process is extremely chaotic. People punch above and below their GPA weight all the time. There isn't anything unbelievable about this story, nor is there any reason to heap scorn on the OP by suggesting it must have been a bone-headed bidding strategy or poor interviewing.

Nobody is entitled to a job. Full stop. Not top 25% at Boalt and not 1% at Yale. People strike out up and down the GPA and school spectrum, and it's hardly always attributable to some particularized failure on the part of the applicant.

It is a difficult job market.

timbs4339 wrote:It's scary as hell to know that even if you get top 25% at a T10 law school, your entire career trajectory could turn on not just which firms you decide to allocate your limited bids to at 2L OCI, but even how you order those firms. It just shows how there are dozens of ways to get tripped up during this process that 0Ls should be aware of.


Pays to do your research then! One thing I can say for sure is that people who devoted a lot of time and energy to preparing for OCI did better than those who did not, whatever the GPA band.

boaltrising3l
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Re: Boalt 3L worth returning to school? (Employment Prospects)

Postby boaltrising3l » Tue Jun 07, 2011 7:16 pm

FWIW ill share a bit more about my experience had 5 CBs at different firms. Each one had given OVER TWENTY callbacks for TWO positions each. So ya you can discredit me as LOL bad interview skillz!!! The fact is there are TONS of qualified, personable people and firms often have to make very tough decisions and maybe offer based on connections. So yeah, not really buying I'm a bad interviewer.

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Shaggier1
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Re: Boalt 3L worth returning to school? (Employment Prospects)

Postby Shaggier1 » Tue Jun 07, 2011 9:02 pm

r
Last edited by Shaggier1 on Tue Jun 07, 2011 9:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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thesealocust
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Re: Boalt 3L worth returning to school? (Employment Prospects)

Postby thesealocust » Tue Jun 07, 2011 9:12 pm

Somebody seems to be mad.

thecynic69
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Re: Boalt 3L worth returning to school? (Employment Prospects)

Postby thecynic69 » Tue Jun 07, 2011 10:44 pm

Came here for lulz, assuming this was a flame...5 pages later, I'm walking away depressed.

boaltrising3l
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Re: Boalt 3L worth returning to school? (Employment Prospects)

Postby boaltrising3l » Tue Jun 07, 2011 11:46 pm

thecynic69 wrote:Came here for lulz, assuming this was a flame...5 pages later, I'm walking away depressed.


Sorry, but at least a lot of the 0Ls can now appreciate what a perilous financial decision they are making. The bill just came via bearfacts for INSTATE:

Books and Supplies: $1,496.00
Fees: $46,946.00
Health Insurance*: $2,150.00
Living Expenses: $22,060.00
Other Expenses: $166.00
Total UC Berkeley Costs: $72,818.00

Yepppp, I made the right call.

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Re: Boalt 3L worth returning to school? (Employment Prospects)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jun 07, 2011 11:54 pm

Started off feeling sympathy for the OP.

Read through the thread and realized that the OP has no business whatsoever serving as counsel for other people.

Now I'm disappointed that there's one less sap lawyer in the world to compete with.

If you you can't leverage top quartile from Boalt into a job, you don't deserve one. And don't give me this crap about ITE; I go to a shitty law school and have paying work for the summer. Beyond that, I know fellow clerks from even shittier law schools with paying gigs. Thing is, we all worked like hell from day 1 to find jobs and constantly looked at back-up options until something was guaranteed.

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gwuorbust
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Re: Boalt 3L worth returning to school? (Employment Prospects)

Postby gwuorbust » Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:04 am

boaltrising3l wrote:
thecynic69 wrote:Came here for lulz, assuming this was a flame...5 pages later, I'm walking away depressed.


Sorry, but at least a lot of the 0Ls can now appreciate what a perilous financial decision they are making. The bill just came via bearfacts for INSTATE:

Books and Supplies: $1,496.00
Fees: $46,946.00
Health Insurance*: $2,150.00
Living Expenses: $22,060.00
Other Expenses: $166.00
Total UC Berkeley Costs: $72,818.00

Yepppp, I made the right call.


again, repeating what another poster said..can you visit another, cheap school and only take on a little more debt? I feel like in the long run, a law degree for Berkeley will be better than simply 140k in debt you are paying off for wasted effort.

seatown12
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Re: Boalt 3L worth returning to school? (Employment Prospects)

Postby seatown12 » Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:10 am

boaltrising3l wrote:Total UC Berkeley Costs: $72,818.00
Yepppp, I made the right call.

No you paid $145,636 for absolutely nothing. You decided two years ago to pay over $200k for a JD, but today you won't pay $72k. This makes NO sense.

Also, nobody should believe that the $65k finance job that was waiting for you after 2 years wouldn't still be there after 3.

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bass08
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Re: Boalt 3L worth returning to school? (Employment Prospects)

Postby bass08 » Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:20 am

Seems like flame to me--not because of someone in the top 25 striking out or whatever, but the way other things have been said lead me to believe that.

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bilbobaggins
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Re: Boalt 3L worth returning to school? (Employment Prospects)

Postby bilbobaggins » Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:33 am

If it's not a flame, the individual is uninformed.

Many individuals below top 25% with no IP background get CA jobs.

While it may have been partly a poor bidding strategy, one also has to blow some interviews to be in this position with those grades.

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FantasticMrFox
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Re: Boalt 3L worth returning to school? (Employment Prospects)

Postby FantasticMrFox » Wed Jun 08, 2011 1:08 am

thecynic69 wrote:Came here for lulz, assuming this was a flame...5 pages later, I'm walking away depressed.

prawnstar
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Re: Boalt 3L worth returning to school? (Employment Prospects)

Postby prawnstar » Wed Jun 08, 2011 1:31 am

I go to Boalt. My conservative estimate is probably 50% got big firm jobs and about 10% got smaller/mid sized firms/ or corporate work. The rest got P/I. I only know of about 3 people who didn't have jobs when finals ended. While things certainly aren't great as Boalt recently completely revamped their OCI program, they aren't as bad as some people claim.

I got a firm job in the Bay Area doing transaction work and I was probably median or just below. I bid almost exclusively on firms in CA. While some of it might have been luck, I think part of the reason I got the job had to do with the fact that I really got along with the interviewers and I could be myself and they genuinely saw that I was interested in the practice group I got assigned to.

I don't know who the TS is, but I can honestly say that fit is bigger part of the picture than most people realize.

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re-applicant
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Re: Boalt 3L worth returning to school? (Employment Prospects)

Postby re-applicant » Wed Jun 08, 2011 1:34 am

What's with people on TLS calling "flame" on threads that can't possibly be amusing to anyone involved? It's insulting to bona fide flame artists.

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robotclubmember
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Re: Boalt 3L worth returning to school? (Employment Prospects)

Postby robotclubmember » Wed Jun 08, 2011 2:35 pm

boaltrising3l wrote:Just to update everyone, got great news today, an offer for my old finance job starting at 65k. Plan on withdrawing soon. This is far more than I could expect as a Boalt grad, and while I really wanted to become a lawyer, I have other people I had to think about that need my support.

Anyways, still willing to answer any questions about Boalt, fun experience, but probably not the greatest financial investment.


If your job is in finance, having that JD in the future would open up doors to the CFO route... Obviously nothing to hang your hat on, but I think you're making a monumental mistake buddy... Think about your career trajectory in 20 years? That Boalt JD, very possibly at Cum Laude, will make a huge diff in terms of landing a C-Suite position when your resume is being reviewed by a board of directors...

Just... a terrible mistake, but I understand your situation is tough.

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haus
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Re: Boalt 3L worth returning to school? (Employment Prospects)

Postby haus » Wed Jun 08, 2011 5:31 pm

robotclubmember wrote:
boaltrising3l wrote:Just to update everyone, got great news today, an offer for my old finance job starting at 65k. Plan on withdrawing soon. This is far more than I could expect as a Boalt grad, and while I really wanted to become a lawyer, I have other people I had to think about that need my support.

Anyways, still willing to answer any questions about Boalt, fun experience, but probably not the greatest financial investment.


If your job is in finance, having that JD in the future would open up doors to the CFO route... Obviously nothing to hang your hat on, but I think you're making a monumental mistake buddy... Think about your career trajectory in 20 years? That Boalt JD, very possibly at Cum Laude, will make a huge diff in terms of landing a C-Suite position when your resume is being reviewed by a board of directors...

Just... a terrible mistake, but I understand your situation is tough.


Being concerned with life more than a year after law school comes to a close? I did not think that was allowed on this forum.

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thesealocust
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Re: Boalt 3L worth returning to school? (Employment Prospects)

Postby thesealocust » Wed Jun 08, 2011 6:38 pm

robotclubmember wrote:If your job is in finance, having that JD in the future would open up doors to the CFO route... Obviously nothing to hang your hat on, but I think you're making a monumental mistake buddy... Think about your career trajectory in 20 years? That Boalt JD, very possibly at Cum Laude, will make a huge diff in terms of landing a C-Suite position when your resume is being reviewed by a board of directors...

Just... a terrible mistake, but I understand your situation is tough.


This post doesn't even have a cursory relationship with the truth. Have you even started law school yet?

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Re: Boalt 3L worth returning to school? (Employment Prospects)

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Wed Jun 08, 2011 6:49 pm

thesealocust wrote:
robotclubmember wrote:If your job is in finance, having that JD in the future would open up doors to the CFO route... Obviously nothing to hang your hat on, but I think you're making a monumental mistake buddy... Think about your career trajectory in 20 years? That Boalt JD, very possibly at Cum Laude, will make a huge diff in terms of landing a C-Suite position when your resume is being reviewed by a board of directors...

Just... a terrible mistake, but I understand your situation is tough.


This post doesn't even have a cursory relationship with the truth. Have you even started law school yet?


Well I agree that it is not the most valid advice, a high profile law degree (with or without latin honors) looks very good on the resume no matter what you want to do in life. For example, OP could possibly be able to score a better business job than one that pays $65K with the help of the law degree; it would help him/her sell themselves to other employers (particularly corporations). Also, let's not forget the the big 4 and some banks recruit from top law schools.

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thesealocust
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Re: Boalt 3L worth returning to school? (Employment Prospects)

Postby thesealocust » Wed Jun 08, 2011 6:53 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:
thesealocust wrote:
robotclubmember wrote:If your job is in finance, having that JD in the future would open up doors to the CFO route... Obviously nothing to hang your hat on, but I think you're making a monumental mistake buddy... Think about your career trajectory in 20 years? That Boalt JD, very possibly at Cum Laude, will make a huge diff in terms of landing a C-Suite position when your resume is being reviewed by a board of directors...

Just... a terrible mistake, but I understand your situation is tough.


This post doesn't even have a cursory relationship with the truth. Have you even started law school yet?


Well I agree that it is not the most valid advice, a high profile law degree (with or without latin honors) looks very good on the resume no matter what you want to do in life. For example, OP could possibly be able to score a better business job than one that pays $65K with the help of the law degree; it would help him/her sell themselves to other employers (particularly corporations). Also, let's not forget the the big 4 and some banks recruit from top law schools.


Big 4 yes, most other things now. A law degree is looked on favorably by law firms, corporate counsel offices who hire attorneys, members of congress and committee staff, government legal offices, legal departments of government agencies, etc.

It is absolutely not something that will help you score a better business job than one that pays $65K. That's a straight up lie. Patently false. I'm a rising 3L and now scores of people who have recently graduated, including many who have searched - with strong credentials from T14, T10, you name it law schools - for jobs of all kinds, including several different non-legal sectors. It does not help.

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dresden doll
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Re: Boalt 3L worth returning to school? (Employment Prospects)

Postby dresden doll » Wed Jun 08, 2011 7:04 pm

The time to drop out was last year. It'd be ludicrous to drop out now that you've invested over 100K in your Boalt degree.

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Re: Boalt 3L worth returning to school? (Employment Prospects)

Postby robotclubmember » Wed Jun 08, 2011 7:32 pm

thesealocust wrote:
robotclubmember wrote:If your job is in finance, having that JD in the future would open up doors to the CFO route... Obviously nothing to hang your hat on, but I think you're making a monumental mistake buddy... Think about your career trajectory in 20 years? That Boalt JD, very possibly at Cum Laude, will make a huge diff in terms of landing a C-Suite position when your resume is being reviewed by a board of directors...

Just... a terrible mistake, but I understand your situation is tough.


This post doesn't even have a cursory relationship with the truth. Have you even started law school yet?


No but I've been a CPA for the last three years and know how finance functions work... JD's have an advantage in pursuing the CFO route and you don't need a special degree to know that... I've met a couple CFO's with JD's, and my former partner advised getting a JD (before he knew I had any intention of getting one) is one way to get in if I were ever interested in going CFO...

But I dunno. I guess your eyes are closed until the magic moment you arrive at your first class, and then you magically have an opinion that matters.

Clearly, you don't need it for any business job. But it can actually help. Especially when you're already 2/3 done with getting the degree. It's not something that would immediately benefit you though, no. That's true. If you're capable of projecting more than five years into the future though, you could see how it could be an advantage.

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Re: Boalt 3L worth returning to school? (Employment Prospects)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jun 08, 2011 7:57 pm

OP, your thread definitely struck a chord with me. I don't post a lot on this forum, but I thought that I would throw out my own personal take on your situation since it pretty closely resembles mine. I don't know if I can change your mind by this point, but I figure that it's worth a shot.

After finishing in the top 5% of my class at a T50 school, I took on WAY more debt in order to transfer into a CCN school. At the time that I transferred, common consensus seemed to be that transferring into CCN equaled Biglaw (which I figured I would use in order to pay off my newly incurred debt with). Had I stayed at my old school, I would have graduated with no debt, and I still would have had a high GPA at an Ivy League undergrad and V5 legal assistant gig on my resume to throw at any employers. Well, after getting rejected by my last OCI callback, I pretty seriously considered dropping out. Actually, there was a week at the beginning of November where I stopped doing the reading for class, taking notes, going to class, etc... I thought that there was a 0% chance that I would finish the semester. I left on good terms with the firm that I had worked as a legal assistant for, so I probably could have gone back to that job, which would have paid roughly what your finance job is going to be paying.

Ultimately, I decided to finish the degree though. The bottom line is that you've already spent a ton of money, invested a lot of time, and likely went through a lot of misery to get this degree. Furthermore, no one really knows how the whole legal hiring crisis is going to play out, and if you get a UCB Law degree (especially with honors), any potential future employer is automatically going to assume that you fall solidly within the top 1% of the general population (at least as far as intelligence and work ethic go). I'm not going to lie. About 30% of the 3Ls at my CCN school just graduated with nothing lined up and are pretty pissed off about it. But when you consider the alternatives available to you by this point, I'm not sure that they're that much better. I wouldn't be surprised if there's going to be a massive government student loan bailout sometime soon since there's no way in hell that the majority of current law school students and recent law school graduates are going to be able to pay off their student loans. Are you paying straight up ca$h for the degree? Are your loans federal? Are they private?

Btw, OP, ignore all of these 0Ls who clearly have no idea what the hell they're talking about. If they knew how bad the legal market was right now, they wouldn't be going to law school (assuming either non-T14 or non-T50 w/ full ride). I know that I didn't follow that advice while I was applying myself, but frankly, the same information wasn't constantly being being thrown in my face by major newspapers/magazines back then. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/busin ... .html?_r=1. Also, the whole "I just want to go to law school so that I can be a lawyer; I don't care about Biglaw" line is pretty stupid when you consider that the majority of students at schools ranked outside of the top 20 aren't going to be able to find full-time attorney positions upon graduating. http://www.tnr.com/article/87251/law-sc ... georgetown.

Basically, shit sucks, I totally sympathize with your situation, and I think that you'd be slightly worse off dropping out now than finishing the degree. But that's just my take. Ultimately, this is going to be a tough decision that you're going to have to make on your own after a lot of soul searching. I wish you the best of luck.

seatown12
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Re: Boalt 3L worth returning to school? (Employment Prospects)

Postby seatown12 » Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:29 pm

thesealocust wrote:
robotclubmember wrote:If your job is in finance, having that JD in the future would open up doors to the CFO route... Obviously nothing to hang your hat on, but I think you're making a monumental mistake buddy... Think about your career trajectory in 20 years? That Boalt JD, very possibly at Cum Laude, will make a huge diff in terms of landing a C-Suite position when your resume is being reviewed by a board of directors...

Just... a terrible mistake, but I understand your situation is tough.


This post doesn't even have a cursory relationship with the truth. Have you even started law school yet?

Other than the part about OP making a terrible mistake maybe.

boaltrising3l
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Re: Boalt 3L worth returning to school? (Employment Prospects)

Postby boaltrising3l » Thu Jun 09, 2011 12:12 am

I've been given until Monday by summer employer and new employer to finalize a decision, though fortunately all parties are understanding. I agree that there's a lot of 0L ignorance that a job will be a given or that a big finance firm is going to care if someone has a JD. 65k is just way more money than I can expect to earn as a Boalt grad, so it seems like a no brainer to me. I don't pay 73 grand, and earn more money than I would be able to earn in the legal field. Seems unjustifiable to stay in school.




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