Let's talk about Atlanta!

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wiz
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Re: Let's talk about Atlanta!

Postby wiz » Wed Apr 08, 2015 4:52 pm

FluffMonster wrote:
JAYINSD wrote:
SplitMyPants wrote:
Certainly, but it seems a 40% pay increase in NYC relative to Atl, which more than makes up for CoL, would be significant enough to make Atlanta move, too?


Nah, ATL firms are not really competing with NYC firm in any way. Southern firms are selling the life style lol. If ATL do react that will be a few years (>3years) down the road. The market reacts to NYC first will be SF, LA and DC markets. BTW, NYC won't raise the salary.


Idk. I'd say candidates that are undecided as to location or teetering on the edge may choose NY over ATL. It certainly changes my calculations, and I'd imagine that other people feel similarly.


Just do TX then. NY pay with baller COL. Much larger legal market than ATL too.

http://www.nalp.org/buying_power_index_class_of_2012

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SplitMyPants
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Re: Let's talk about Atlanta!

Postby SplitMyPants » Wed Apr 08, 2015 5:28 pm

wiz wrote:
FluffMonster wrote:
JAYINSD wrote:
SplitMyPants wrote:
Certainly, but it seems a 40% pay increase in NYC relative to Atl, which more than makes up for CoL, would be significant enough to make Atlanta move, too?


Nah, ATL firms are not really competing with NYC firm in any way. Southern firms are selling the life style lol. If ATL do react that will be a few years (>3years) down the road. The market reacts to NYC first will be SF, LA and DC markets. BTW, NYC won't raise the salary.


Idk. I'd say candidates that are undecided as to location or teetering on the edge may choose NY over ATL. It certainly changes my calculations, and I'd imagine that other people feel similarly.


Just do TX then. NY pay with baller COL. Much larger legal market than ATL too.

http://www.nalp.org/buying_power_index_class_of_2012


My only ties to Texas are that I've been to Longhorn Steakhouse once for dinner. Think that'll cut it? :lol:

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MyNameIsFlynn!
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Re: Let's talk about Atlanta!

Postby MyNameIsFlynn! » Wed Apr 08, 2015 8:36 pm

FluffMonster wrote:
JAYINSD wrote:
SplitMyPants wrote:
Certainly, but it seems a 40% pay increase in NYC relative to Atl, which more than makes up for CoL, would be significant enough to make Atlanta move, too?


Nah, ATL firms are not really competing with NYC firm in any way. Southern firms are selling the life style lol. If ATL do react that will be a few years (>3years) down the road. The market reacts to NYC first will be SF, LA and DC markets. BTW, NYC won't raise the salary.


Idk. I'd say candidates that are undecided as to location or teetering on the edge may choose NY over ATL. It certainly changes my calculations, and I'd imagine that other people feel similarly.


This whole conversation is pretty silly because NYC to 190 is unlikely, and even if it did happen, almost all of the people ITT will be well past their BigLaw careers by the time Atl raises base

In any case, I'll indulge: There are so many people in the top 10% at UGA/Emory/Vandy/Duke/UF/Bama/UNC/UT/FSU/(get the drift) who would take a market-paying Atl offer in a heartbeat that Atl doesn't need to compete on salary. No need to compete with NYC to get top tier talent

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Re: Let's talk about Atlanta!

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Apr 08, 2015 9:01 pm

MyNameIsFlynn! wrote:This whole conversation is pretty silly because NYC to 190 is unlikely, and even if it did happen, almost all of the people ITT will be well past their BigLaw careers by the time Atl raises base


That's exactly why it's pertinent. If NYC was starting at what is probably still the 8th year associate salary in Atlanta, that would impact my geographic target.

Omerta
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Re: Let's talk about Atlanta!

Postby Omerta » Thu Apr 09, 2015 10:45 am

JAYINSD wrote:
FluffMonster wrote:
JAYINSD wrote:
SplitMyPants wrote:
Certainly, but it seems a 40% pay increase in NYC relative to Atl, which more than makes up for CoL, would be significant enough to make Atlanta move, too?


Nah, ATL firms are not really competing with NYC firm in any way. Southern firms are selling the life style lol. If ATL do react that will be a few years (>3years) down the road. The market reacts to NYC first will be SF, LA and DC markets. BTW, NYC won't raise the salary.


Idk. I'd say candidates that are undecided as to location or teetering on the edge may choose NY over ATL. It certainly changes my calculations, and I'd imagine that other people feel similarly.


Last time when NYC went to 160, it took ATL 4 or 5 years to react, and it merely goes up to 145/135. Big ATL firms like AB and KS are not particularly well known for their generosity to their associates.


COL calculators say $135 in ATL is $234 in NY. Disagree with the amount if you want, but ATL is way cheaper than NY.

But again, this is a stupid conversation to have. Atlanta is a totally different city than New York. It would be dumb to choose one or the other based on monetary considerations. You couldn't pay me enough to live in NYC, and other people wouldn't live anywhere but NYC.

Also, southern firms don't sell "lifestyle." Maybe people think that because Alston constantly tosses that "best place to work" BS ranking around, but I've interviewed at literally every NALP firm in Atlanta except for Baker Hostetler (new) and the IP shops (Finnegan, Fish) and lifestyle differences between the firm and NY firms rarely if ever came up.

Anonymous User wrote:Hey, haven't really seen this discussed in-depth ITT:

How tough is Atlanta for a AA URM at HYS? Particularly S (really want to move out to the west coast, but I might suck it up for H/Y for a few years). I've been told that the dearth of SLS grads in Atlanta makes it easier to break into the market, because they are "rare." No idea if that's true.

I went to undergrad in Atlanta, btw. I used to work for a big Atlanta firm during undergrad, albeit as a courier/mailroom guy.


Not difficult at all. Would be harder, but still fairly easy, if you didn't have ties to Atlanta. Ties make it a lot easier.

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Re: Let's talk about Atlanta!

Postby JAYINSD » Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:34 am

Omerta wrote:Also, southern firms don't sell "lifestyle." Maybe people think that because Alston constantly tosses that "best place to work" BS ranking around, but I've interviewed at literally every NALP firm in Atlanta except for Baker Hostetler (new) and the IP shops (Finnegan, Fish) and lifestyle differences between the firm and NY firms rarely if ever came up.


I know that is why there is a lol at the end of my sentence. :mrgreen:

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Re: Let's talk about Atlanta!

Postby FluffMonster » Thu Apr 09, 2015 1:41 pm

Omerta wrote:
JAYINSD wrote:
FluffMonster wrote:
Idk. I'd say candidates that are undecided as to location or teetering on the edge may choose NY over ATL. It certainly changes my calculations, and I'd imagine that other people feel similarly.


Last time when NYC went to 160, it took ATL 4 or 5 years to react, and it merely goes up to 145/135. Big ATL firms like AB and KS are not particularly well known for their generosity to their associates.


COL calculators say $135 in ATL is $234 in NY. Disagree with the amount if you want, but ATL is way cheaper than NY.

But again, this is a stupid conversation to have. Atlanta is a totally different city than New York. It would be dumb to choose one or the other based on monetary considerations. You couldn't pay me enough to live in NYC, and other people wouldn't live anywhere but NYC.

Also, southern firms don't sell "lifestyle." Maybe people think that because Alston constantly tosses that "best place to work" BS ranking around, but I've interviewed at literally every NALP firm in Atlanta except for Baker Hostetler (new) and the IP shops (Finnegan, Fish) and lifestyle differences between the firm and NY firms rarely if ever came up.


I don't know why that would be dumb. We're all coming out with a decent amount of debt and a lot of us will only spend 3-4 years paying down that debt on a big law salary. A 55k a year difference definitely would play into any reasonable person's decision big time, especially when the commitment is only 4 years.

Also, the CoL isn't entirely indicative. 55k is the same in ATL or NY when it's just paying down loans.

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SplitMyPants
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Re: Let's talk about Atlanta!

Postby SplitMyPants » Thu Apr 09, 2015 2:24 pm

FluffMonster wrote:Also, the CoL isn't entirely indicative. 55k is the same in ATL or NY when it's just paying down loans.


Except for the 0.65% difference in state income tax. :wink:

JAYINSD
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Re: Let's talk about Atlanta!

Postby JAYINSD » Thu Apr 09, 2015 3:21 pm

FluffMonster wrote:
I don't know why that would be dumb. We're all coming out with a decent amount of debt and a lot of us will only spend 3-4 years paying down that debt on a big law salary. A 55k a year difference definitely would play into any reasonable person's decision big time, especially when the commitment is only 4 years.

Also, the CoL isn't entirely indicative. 55k is the same in ATL or NY when it's just paying down loans.



Not if you are form U of G, GSU, law school tuition is unbelievably low over there. Maybe that is another layer of reason why ATL does not have the pressure to raise the salary.

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Re: Let's talk about Atlanta!

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Apr 09, 2015 4:41 pm

JAYINSD wrote:
FluffMonster wrote:
I don't know why that would be dumb. We're all coming out with a decent amount of debt and a lot of us will only spend 3-4 years paying down that debt on a big law salary. A 55k a year difference definitely would play into any reasonable person's decision big time, especially when the commitment is only 4 years.

Also, the CoL isn't entirely indicative. 55k is the same in ATL or NY when it's just paying down loans.



Not if you are form U of G, GSU, law school tuition is unbelievably low over there. Maybe that is another layer of reason why ATL does not have the pressure to raise the salary.


But that doesn't change the fact that more competitive prospects will choose NY. How far will ATL big law dip into the classes of UGA, GSU, etc. before it decides its pay scale isn't nationally competitive?

chicagoriver
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Re: Let's talk about Atlanta!

Postby chicagoriver » Thu Apr 09, 2015 5:07 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
JAYINSD wrote:
FluffMonster wrote:
I don't know why that would be dumb. We're all coming out with a decent amount of debt and a lot of us will only spend 3-4 years paying down that debt on a big law salary. A 55k a year difference definitely would play into any reasonable person's decision big time, especially when the commitment is only 4 years.

Also, the CoL isn't entirely indicative. 55k is the same in ATL or NY when it's just paying down loans.



Not if you are form U of G, GSU, law school tuition is unbelievably low over there. Maybe that is another layer of reason why ATL does not have the pressure to raise the salary.


But that doesn't change the fact that more competitive prospects will choose NY. How far will ATL big law dip into the classes of UGA, GSU, etc. before it decides its pay scale isn't nationally competitive?


Nah. ATL market is tiny, so your concern is not rally warranted.

Omerta
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Re: Let's talk about Atlanta!

Postby Omerta » Thu Apr 09, 2015 5:17 pm

JAYINSD wrote:
Omerta wrote:Also, southern firms don't sell "lifestyle." Maybe people think that because Alston constantly tosses that "best place to work" BS ranking around, but I've interviewed at literally every NALP firm in Atlanta except for Baker Hostetler (new) and the IP shops (Finnegan, Fish) and lifestyle differences between the firm and NY firms rarely if ever came up.


I know that is why there is a lol at the end of my sentence. :mrgreen:


My bad. People on this site can be so weird about this sort of stuff that my sarcasm detector gets thrown off.

SplitMyPants wrote:
FluffMonster wrote:Also, the CoL isn't entirely indicative. 55k is the same in ATL or NY when it's just paying down loans.


Except for the 0.65% difference in state income tax. :wink:


Plus no city tax in ATL : ).

Yeah, a dollar is a dollar when it comes to paying off student loans, but I don't really know how much of the difference gets eaten up by unavoidable differences in CoL/taxes. (Plus, not trying to brag or anything, but that aspect never really occurred to me because I don't have a lot of student loans).

Nah. ATL market is tiny, so your concern is not really warranted.

Yup, Atlanta doesn't really compete for people with NYC. Like I said earlier, they're such different markets that people tend to self-select into one or the other. I don't remember many people at my school saying yeah I'd be ok with a job in NYC or ATL. Instead, people tended to be gung ho one way or the other.

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Re: Let's talk about Atlanta!

Postby FluffMonster » Thu Apr 09, 2015 5:54 pm

Omerta wrote:Yup, Atlanta doesn't really compete for people with NYC. Like I said earlier, they're such different markets that people tend to self-select into one or the other. I don't remember many people at my school saying yeah I'd be ok with a job in NYC or ATL. Instead, people tended to be gung ho one way or the other.


My experiences have been the other way around. There are a lot of people not from GA but from the south who have ATL on their radar but are undecided between it and DC or NY. I think even those from the ATL area would be swayed by that much money to go live in NY for 4 years. Personally, I love Atlanta and I can't see myself living in NY, but 55k/yr definitely plays a role in my decision, especially when NY is only temporary.

Also, I don't mean to trivialize that there are a lot of local students who would jump at the opportunity to work in biglaw, but you could say that about any market. There are excess law grads everywhere, and just look at Philly's new pay raise.

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MyNameIsFlynn!
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Re: Let's talk about Atlanta!

Postby MyNameIsFlynn! » Thu Apr 09, 2015 6:02 pm

FluffMonster wrote:
Omerta wrote:Yup, Atlanta doesn't really compete for people with NYC. Like I said earlier, they're such different markets that people tend to self-select into one or the other. I don't remember many people at my school saying yeah I'd be ok with a job in NYC or ATL. Instead, people tended to be gung ho one way or the other.


My experiences have been the other way around. There are a lot of people not from GA but from the south who have ATL on their radar but are undecided between it and DC or NY. I think even those from the ATL area would be swayed by that much money to go live in NY for 4 years. Personally, I love Atlanta and I can't see myself living in NY, but 55k/yr definitely plays a role in my decision, especially when NY is only temporary.

Also, I don't mean to trivialize that there are a lot of local students who would jump at the opportunity to work in biglaw, but you could say that about any market. There are excess law grads everywhere, and just look at Philly's new pay raise.


While I do think Atlanta is unique in the ratio of new grads to BigLaw positions available (or, if not unique, certainly on the high end of the scale along with places like CO or the PNW), even accepting that its oversupply of grads isn't unique, doesn't that just counsel in favor of no pay raises above 160k anywhere?

Above the Law suggests the Philly move was prompted by a couple national firms moving up (Compare with PH and JD Atl pay-clearly that hasn't threatened any of the native firms) and a feeling that Philly was losing talent to NJ and NYC offices that paid 160k. Of course, the latter point raises the question that we've been discussing for the past two pages about when Atl lagging behind the rest of the country will meaningfully affect recruitment. Seems clear that 160k outside Atl isn't hurting recruitment.

For what it's worth, I think it is impressive this conversation continues and wonder how many more pages it'll consume.

Anonymous User wrote:But that doesn't change the fact that more competitive prospects will choose NY. How far will ATL big law dip into the classes of UGA, GSU, etc. before it decides its pay scale isn't nationally competitive?


Solid use of anon

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Re: Let's talk about Atlanta!

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Apr 09, 2015 6:15 pm

Any speculation or rumors on what effect the McKenna / Dentons merger will have on Atlanta summer classes / base salary / lateral hiring?

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wiz
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Re: Let's talk about Atlanta!

Postby wiz » Thu Apr 09, 2015 6:30 pm

SplitMyPants wrote:My only ties to Texas are that I've been to Longhorn Steakhouse once for dinner. Think that'll cut it? :lol:

For Houston, yes. TX (especially Houston) is not nearly as ties-conscious as people seem to think it is, and as long as you have clear, articulable reasons for wanting to work there plus good grades/good school, you'd be fine.

I also just learned that Longhorn originated in Atlanta.

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SplitMyPants
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Re: Let's talk about Atlanta!

Postby SplitMyPants » Thu Apr 09, 2015 6:55 pm

MyNameIsFlynn! wrote:Seems clear that 160k outside Atl isn't hurting recruitment.


FR and Finnegan paying 160 locally has pushed IP pay above market throughout Atl despite each of those firms only taking 2 or 3 SAs a year. There are far more than 5 or 6 IP candidates targeting Atlanta each year, many of whom would surely be happy w/ 135 in Atl over 160 in DC/NYC.

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Re: Let's talk about Atlanta!

Postby BruceWayne » Thu Apr 09, 2015 8:30 pm

In terms of the COL thing: yes 55k In loans is the same in NYC as it is in Atlanta. But $1100 in rent vs. $3K in rent makes the $55k feel a hell of a lot different.

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Re: Let's talk about Atlanta!

Postby chicagoriver » Thu Apr 09, 2015 10:34 pm

SplitMyPants wrote:
MyNameIsFlynn! wrote:Seems clear that 160k outside Atl isn't hurting recruitment.


FR and Finnegan paying 160 locally has pushed IP pay above market throughout Atl despite each of those firms only taking 2 or 3 SAs a year. There are far more than 5 or 6 IP candidates targeting Atlanta each year, many of whom would surely be happy w/ 135 in Atl over 160 in DC/NYC.


That is the thing IP is paying higher everywhere, and IP does not have much jurisdiction restriction because of a single appellate court. If all the other major markets and secondary major markets follow the illusory NYC raise, then yes ATL will react. But not in a million years, ATL will be the first to react.

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Re: Let's talk about Atlanta!

Postby Omerta » Fri Apr 10, 2015 10:08 am

FluffMonster wrote:
Omerta wrote:Yup, Atlanta doesn't really compete for people with NYC. Like I said earlier, they're such different markets that people tend to self-select into one or the other. I don't remember many people at my school saying yeah I'd be ok with a job in NYC or ATL. Instead, people tended to be gung ho one way or the other.


My experiences have been the other way around. There are a lot of people not from GA but from the south who have ATL on their radar but are undecided between it and DC or NY. I think even those from the ATL area would be swayed by that much money to go live in NY for 4 years. Personally, I love Atlanta and I can't see myself living in NY, but 55k/yr definitely plays a role in my decision, especially when NY is only temporary.


That's interesting; I didn't really see that dynamic when I was at Emory. edit: to be clear, I'm not saying you're wrong, just that when I was going through OCI, my classmates were either all about NY or decidedly not into NY. I remember some people waffling between DC and ATL but can't really anyone torn between ATL and NYC.

BruceWayne wrote:In terms of the COL thing: yes 55k In loans is the same in NYC as it is in Atlanta. But $1100 in rent vs. $3K in rent makes the $55k feel a hell of a lot different.


Yeah, I mean the argument is always there that you could live absolutely bare bones in NY and pocket the difference, which some people are capable of doing, but I think most people--particularly those on the biglaw grind--end up spending more out of necessity (ordering food rather than cooking, etc.) and to maintain their sanity.

Anonymous User wrote:Any speculation or rumors on what effect the McKenna / Dentons merger will have on Atlanta summer classes / base salary / lateral hiring?


Minimal. Hiring will go up if Dentons' clients use McKenna instead of former counsel for SE projects. Otherwise, I don't see much change. The real difference is going to be where the firm is heading. McKenna was sort of at a crossroad where it had to decide whether it was going to be a national/international firm or a strong regional firm. It chose the former, which I'm not sure was the greatest idea given the market dynamics, but we'll see whether the merger made sense.

If McKenna ends up raising salary, it won't be for a while. One of the big points during the merger is that McKenna wouldn't be obligated to raise its rates (Dentons allows for regional variation). I don't see any serious departure from business as usual until the firm gets integrated/comfortable with the merger.

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Re: Let's talk about Atlanta!

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Apr 10, 2015 7:43 pm

JAYINSD wrote:Last time when NYC went to 160, it took ATL 4 or 5 years to react, and it merely goes up to 145/135. Big ATL firms like AB and KS are not particularly well known for their generosity to their associates.

This is false. Atlanta went to 135 and then 145 in 2007, which was the same year NY went to 160.

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Re: Let's talk about Atlanta!

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 21, 2015 7:22 pm

Can anyone tell me what they know about AGG?

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North
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Re: Let's talk about Atlanta!

Postby North » Wed Oct 21, 2015 10:47 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Can anyone tell me what they know about AGG?

You're going to have to narrow that down some

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Re: Let's talk about Atlanta!

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Oct 22, 2015 1:44 pm

North wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Can anyone tell me what they know about AGG?

You're going to have to narrow that down some


Firm culture, reputation, personal experiences, anecdotal knowledge, whatever you have to share...

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Re: Let's talk about Atlanta!

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Oct 24, 2015 10:05 am

That's a crap question, so you are going to get a crap answer.

AGG is a fine mid-level firm in Atlanta, I know many people that work there and like it. I know a few that didn't. Just like every other peer frim.




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