Would I be stupid to bid on only 8 firms during OCI?

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Re: Would I be stupid to bid on only 8 firms during OCI?

Postby plum » Sat May 28, 2011 5:10 pm

RVP11 wrote:Chances are if you only have 8 or so OCIs you might put too much pressure on yourself for each one and that could be much worse than being a little worn out from interviewing all day every day.

this.
even if there's only a 5% chance (for the sake of argument) of getting no offers, the consequences of that are horrible enough to avoid that. you will be a nervous wreck that whole week, even though the chances of the worse-case scenario is that 5%.

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Re: Would I be stupid to bid on only 8 firms during OCI?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat May 28, 2011 5:16 pm

TaipeiMort wrote:the questionable judgement you displayed in setting up an essential ode-to-yourself thread on TLS

and this is not the only such ode-to-self thread/post OP has created.

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Re: Would I be stupid to bid on only 8 firms during OCI?

Postby timbs4339 » Sat May 28, 2011 7:10 pm

OP, you need to bid the rest of the V15 and the DC firms mentioned in this thread. You will probably get an offer from 1-3 of DPW/S+C/CSM if you can hold it together for the interview and get a callback (they tend to auto-offer people when they give them callbacks). Your chances at the other firms are, as has been said over and over in this thread, highly dependent on factors besides grades.

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Re: Would I be stupid to bid on only 8 firms during OCI?

Postby lsplz » Sat May 28, 2011 7:37 pm

As someone who's summering at one of the other hyper-prestigious firms people are suggesting to this guy-- and absolutely loving the people and the work-- I'd like to request that we stop suggesting alternate firms. My coworkers are too humble, thoughtful, and socially aware, while incomprehensibly impressive, to be subjected to this guy. Though it's hard to imagine him getting past a screening interview here.

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Re: Would I be stupid to bid on only 8 firms during OCI?

Postby Lawquacious » Sat May 28, 2011 7:56 pm

EijiMiyake wrote:ITT: law students show that they are unable to speak without puffing themselves up, or tearing others down.


+1.. OP may have posted for some ego-puffing reasons, but the vehemence other posters are attacking him with suggests envy or competitive pride by those tearing him down.

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Re: Would I be stupid to bid on only 8 firms during OCI?

Postby 20121109 » Sat May 28, 2011 7:58 pm

Lawquacious wrote:
EijiMiyake wrote:ITT: law students show that they are unable to speak without puffing themselves up, or tearing others down.


+1.. OP may have posted for some ego-puffing reasons, but the vehemence other posters are attacking him with suggests envy or competitive pride by those tearing him down.


I don't think this is true at all.

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Re: Would I be stupid to bid on only 8 firms during OCI?

Postby TaipeiMort » Sat May 28, 2011 8:34 pm

Lawquacious wrote:
EijiMiyake wrote:ITT: law students show that they are unable to speak without puffing themselves up, or tearing others down.


+1.. OP may have posted for some ego-puffing reasons, but the vehemence other posters are attacking him with suggests envy or competitive pride by those tearing him down.


I'm genuinely worried for OP and could care less what he got on his grades. I just am trying to help him avoid the mouth full of concrete that accompanies those on the painful falling side of the pride cycle.

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Re: Would I be stupid to bid on only 8 firms during OCI?

Postby vamedic03 » Sat May 28, 2011 9:19 pm

Lawquacious wrote:
EijiMiyake wrote:ITT: law students show that they are unable to speak without puffing themselves up, or tearing others down.


+1.. OP may have posted for some ego-puffing reasons, but the vehemence other posters are attacking him with suggests envy or competitive pride by those tearing him down.


Lolwut... Half the people posting in here have grades equal or better than OPs.

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Re: Would I be stupid to bid on only 8 firms during OCI?

Postby Lawquacious » Sat May 28, 2011 11:33 pm

TaipeiMort wrote:
Lawquacious wrote:
EijiMiyake wrote:ITT: law students show that they are unable to speak without puffing themselves up, or tearing others down.


+1.. OP may have posted for some ego-puffing reasons, but the vehemence other posters are attacking him with suggests envy or competitive pride by those tearing him down.


I'm genuinely worried for OP and could care less what he got on his grades. I just am trying to help him avoid the mouth full of concrete that accompanies those on the painful falling side of the pride cycle.



I didn't mean that everyone's posts were meant to take a shot at OP, but the tone of a lot of the posts ITT came off that way to me. I mean OPs question just does not seem as crazy or as off-base to me as many ppl seem to be saying ITT, even if he was misguided about the wisdom (or lack there of) of only targeting a limited number of firms.
Last edited by Lawquacious on Sat May 28, 2011 11:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Would I be stupid to bid on only 8 firms during OCI?

Postby Lawquacious » Sat May 28, 2011 11:42 pm

vamedic03 wrote:
Lawquacious wrote:
EijiMiyake wrote:ITT: law students show that they are unable to speak without puffing themselves up, or tearing others down.


+1.. OP may have posted for some ego-puffing reasons, but the vehemence other posters are attacking him with suggests envy or competitive pride by those tearing him down.


Lolwut... Half the people posting in here have grades equal or better than OPs.



Better than top 5% at Columbia? I doubt that (though I do think at least one of the posters was #1 at at a non-CCN T10...)

But if you were right, it still doesn't disconfirm that any harsh tone with some of the posts could be motivated by competitive pride more than helpfulness.. (though it would tend to indicate it is not a question of envy).

Anyway.. I have no horse in this race, but it just struck me that some of the posts came off as rather harsh. But welcome to TLS and the legal field in general I suppose. :lol:

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Re: Would I be stupid to bid on only 8 firms during OCI?

Postby liLtuneChi » Sat May 28, 2011 11:49 pm

Anonymous User wrote:This makes no sense. I was in a better position last year(comparable school, better grades). I did 20 screening interviews. I got 18 call backs. After my first offer I canceled all but 6 of my callbacks. I got 3 offers from those. 2 of the callbacks that didn't result in offers were far lower ranked than the 3 I got offers from(you can't predict these things). Fortunately one of my offers was my top choice and I'm very happy, but why on earth limit yourself? I learned far more from the callbacks about the firms that I could from hearing people talk/reading stuff and it was incredibly valuable in making my final decision. Are you really driven enough to do that well at CLS but too lazy to do screening interviews....


would your advice change if I was given an offer to return 2L summer with the firm I'm at this summer

I'm a SA at a V50 firm that I actually like and wouldn't mind coming back to for 2L summer. My initial post is largely premised on already having their offer in hand to come back 2L summer and using the OCI as leverage to get into a better firm. I know there are a bunch of firms that are better than my current firm that I am not interviewing with but I think possibly having an offer in hand might make the risk of only interviewing with 8 firms not as bad as you make it sound.

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Re: Would I be stupid to bid on only 8 firms during OCI?

Postby Lawquacious » Sat May 28, 2011 11:51 pm

GAIAtheCHEERLEADER wrote:
Lawquacious wrote:
EijiMiyake wrote:ITT: law students show that they are unable to speak without puffing themselves up, or tearing others down.


+1.. OP may have posted for some ego-puffing reasons, but the vehemence other posters are attacking him with suggests envy or competitive pride by those tearing him down.


I don't think this is true at all.



Well to each his/her own. I prob overstated my point (using 'vehemence' and 'attacking'), but I think that saying the tone of a lot of the posts directed at OP ITT are harsh is not much of a stretch. Even if OP was off-base in considering limiting his bids (or just mentioning it to brag about grades), I still don't think it is as ridiculous an inquiry as some of the posters on here seem to indicate.

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Re: Would I be stupid to bid on only 8 firms during OCI?

Postby rayiner » Sun May 29, 2011 12:45 am

Lawquacious wrote:
GAIAtheCHEERLEADER wrote:
Lawquacious wrote:
EijiMiyake wrote:ITT: law students show that they are unable to speak without puffing themselves up, or tearing others down.


+1.. OP may have posted for some ego-puffing reasons, but the vehemence other posters are attacking him with suggests envy or competitive pride by those tearing him down.


I don't think this is true at all.



Well to each his/her own. I prob overstated my point (using 'vehemence' and 'attacking'), but I think that saying the tone of a lot of the posts directed at OP ITT are harsh is not much of a stretch. Even if OP was off-base in considering limiting his bids (or just mentioning it to brag about grades), I still don't think it is as ridiculous an inquiry as some of the posters on here seem to indicate.


People are being harsh because OP needs to be knocked down a peg. Not out of competitive pride but for his own good.

OP is in a range where he's a shoe-in for Cravath/S&C/DPW/Cleary, if he knows the right talking points to use during the interview and doesn't come across as arrogant, but where Wachtell, W&C, Munger, and Susman are not gimmes. There are ~100 people in the top 10% of HYS, plus another 60 in the top 5% of CCN, and another 75 in the top 3% of the rest of the T14. Ie: there are basically 3x as many people with credentials as good or better than the OP as there are slots at these firms. The actual pool of people who have a shot at these firms is probably a good bit bigger than that.

OP certainly has a good shot at getting one of these jobs, but he needs to approach these interviews thinking he's an underdog, because even the guy with top 3% grades at HYS is going to do that.

There is absolutely no reason, no matter what your grades, to ask bullshit questions like "should I only bid on 8 firms at OCI?" You should approach every interview with the fear that you might strike out completely, because that's how you're going to maximize your performance. What happens if OP goes into his interviews thinking he's a lock and doesn't do any better than Cleary? NBD, right, Cleary is a great firm. Sure, but some of OP's classmates are going to be top-third people who destroyed the interview because they went into it with the right mindset. Seems like a waste of top 5% grades to me, not because Cleary isn't great but because the only thing that would've kept OP from a firm that maybe he would've liked even better was his own arrogance.

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Re: Would I be stupid to bid on only 8 firms during OCI?

Postby Renzo » Sun May 29, 2011 12:56 am

rayiner wrote:People are being harsh because OP needs to be knocked down a peg. Not out of competitive pride but for his own good.

OP is in a range where he's a shoe-in for Cravath/S&C/DPW/Cleary, if he knows the right talking points to use during the interview and doesn't come across as arrogant, but where Wachtell, W&C, Munger, and Susman are not gimmes. There are ~100 people in the top 10% of HYS, plus another 60 in the top 5% of CCN, and another 75 in the top 3% of the rest of the T14. Ie: there are basically 3x as many people with credentials as good or better than the OP as there are slots at these firms. The actual pool of people who have a shot at these firms is probably a good bit bigger than that.

OP certainly has a good shot at getting one of these jobs, but he needs to approach these interviews thinking he's an underdog, because even the guy with top 3% grades at HYS is going to do that.

There is absolutely no reason, no matter what your grades, to ask bullshit questions like "should I only bid on 8 firms at OCI?" You should approach every interview with the fear that you might strike out completely, because that's how you're going to maximize your performance. What happens if OP goes into his interviews thinking he's a lock and doesn't do any better than Cleary? NBD, right, Cleary is a great firm. Sure, but some of OP's classmates are going to be top-third people who destroyed the interview because they went into it with the right mindset. Seems like a waste of top 5% grades to me, not because Cleary isn't great but because the only thing that would've kept OP from a firm that maybe he would've liked even better was his own arrogance.



All of this and then some: I had median-ish grades at OCI and got callbacks (and one offer) from a few of the places on OP's list, because I'm a charming motherfucker with an interesting resume. So OP's competing with way more people than he realizes once he factors in the dumb-but-charming kids.

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Re: Would I be stupid to bid on only 8 firms during OCI?

Postby RVP11 » Sun May 29, 2011 1:17 am

liLtuneChi wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:This makes no sense. I was in a better position last year(comparable school, better grades). I did 20 screening interviews. I got 18 call backs. After my first offer I canceled all but 6 of my callbacks. I got 3 offers from those. 2 of the callbacks that didn't result in offers were far lower ranked than the 3 I got offers from(you can't predict these things). Fortunately one of my offers was my top choice and I'm very happy, but why on earth limit yourself? I learned far more from the callbacks about the firms that I could from hearing people talk/reading stuff and it was incredibly valuable in making my final decision. Are you really driven enough to do that well at CLS but too lazy to do screening interviews....


would your advice change if I was given an offer to return 2L summer with the firm I'm at this summer

I'm a SA at a V50 firm that I actually like and wouldn't mind coming back to for 2L summer. My initial post is largely premised on already having their offer in hand to come back 2L summer and using the OCI as leverage to get into a better firm. I know there are a bunch of firms that are better than my current firm that I am not interviewing with but I think possibly having an offer in hand might make the risk of only interviewing with 8 firms not as bad as you make it sound.


Why wouldn't you say this in the first post?

Also, please keep equating Vault ranking with firm quality. This will lead to an enjoyable life.

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Re: Would I be stupid to bid on only 8 firms during OCI?

Postby rayiner » Sun May 29, 2011 1:20 am

RVP11 wrote:
liLtuneChi wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:This makes no sense. I was in a better position last year(comparable school, better grades). I did 20 screening interviews. I got 18 call backs. After my first offer I canceled all but 6 of my callbacks. I got 3 offers from those. 2 of the callbacks that didn't result in offers were far lower ranked than the 3 I got offers from(you can't predict these things). Fortunately one of my offers was my top choice and I'm very happy, but why on earth limit yourself? I learned far more from the callbacks about the firms that I could from hearing people talk/reading stuff and it was incredibly valuable in making my final decision. Are you really driven enough to do that well at CLS but too lazy to do screening interviews....


would your advice change if I was given an offer to return 2L summer with the firm I'm at this summer

I'm a SA at a V50 firm that I actually like and wouldn't mind coming back to for 2L summer. My initial post is largely premised on already having their offer in hand to come back 2L summer and using the OCI as leverage to get into a better firm. I know there are a bunch of firms that are better than my current firm that I am not interviewing with but I think possibly having an offer in hand might make the risk of only interviewing with 8 firms not as bad as you make it sound.


Why wouldn't you say this in the first post?


Because the point of the first post was: "My grades are so baller I'm only going to bid on 8 of the most selective firms in the country." Adding the "but I've got a safety net in the form of my 1L SA firm offer" makes everything seem less baller.

That said, he should still research and see if there are other firms that he may, you know, actually want to work at...

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Re: Would I be stupid to bid on only 8 firms during OCI?

Postby liLtuneChi » Sun May 29, 2011 1:22 am

RVP11 wrote:
liLtuneChi wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:This makes no sense. I was in a better position last year(comparable school, better grades). I did 20 screening interviews. I got 18 call backs. After my first offer I canceled all but 6 of my callbacks. I got 3 offers from those. 2 of the callbacks that didn't result in offers were far lower ranked than the 3 I got offers from(you can't predict these things). Fortunately one of my offers was my top choice and I'm very happy, but why on earth limit yourself? I learned far more from the callbacks about the firms that I could from hearing people talk/reading stuff and it was incredibly valuable in making my final decision. Are you really driven enough to do that well at CLS but too lazy to do screening interviews....


would your advice change if I was given an offer to return 2L summer with the firm I'm at this summer

I'm a SA at a V50 firm that I actually like and wouldn't mind coming back to for 2L summer. My initial post is largely premised on already having their offer in hand to come back 2L summer and using the OCI as leverage to get into a better firm. I know there are a bunch of firms that are better than my current firm that I am not interviewing with but I think possibly having an offer in hand might make the risk of only interviewing with 8 firms not as bad as you make it sound.


Why wouldn't you say this in the first post?

Also, please keep equating Vault ranking with firm quality. This will lead to an enjoyable life.


kinda slipped my mind

but that is the whole basis of my gameplan.....also I'm assuming I'll get on law review

I'm thinking having a V50 offer in hand, plus top 5% grades and law review should make just bidding on these 8 firms not that big of a gamble.

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Re: Would I be stupid to bid on only 8 firms during OCI?

Postby RVP11 » Sun May 29, 2011 1:23 am

liLtuneChi wrote:kinda slipped my mind


Yeah, flames are hard to manufacture.

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Re: Would I be stupid to bid on only 8 firms during OCI?

Postby swc65 » Sun May 29, 2011 1:37 am

liLtuneChi wrote:
RVP11 wrote:
liLtuneChi wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:This makes no sense. I was in a better position last year(comparable school, better grades). I did 20 screening interviews. I got 18 call backs. After my first offer I canceled all but 6 of my callbacks. I got 3 offers from those. 2 of the callbacks that didn't result in offers were far lower ranked than the 3 I got offers from(you can't predict these things). Fortunately one of my offers was my top choice and I'm very happy, but why on earth limit yourself? I learned far more from the callbacks about the firms that I could from hearing people talk/reading stuff and it was incredibly valuable in making my final decision. Are you really driven enough to do that well at CLS but too lazy to do screening interviews....


would your advice change if I was given an offer to return 2L summer with the firm I'm at this summer

I'm a SA at a V50 firm that I actually like and wouldn't mind coming back to for 2L summer. My initial post is largely premised on already having their offer in hand to come back 2L summer and using the OCI as leverage to get into a better firm. I know there are a bunch of firms that are better than my current firm that I am not interviewing with but I think possibly having an offer in hand might make the risk of only interviewing with 8 firms not as bad as you make it sound.


Why wouldn't you say this in the first post?

Also, please keep equating Vault ranking with firm quality. This will lead to an enjoyable life.


kinda slipped my mind

but that is the whole basis of my gameplan.....also I'm assuming I'll get on law review

I'm thinking having a V50 offer in hand, plus top 5% grades and law review should make just bidding on these 8 firms not that big of a gamble.


Uh, you have to bid well BEFORE you would have an offer in hand. Our bids are due 7-15 and I am certain that your SA gig lasts longer than that.

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Re: Would I be stupid to bid on only 8 firms during OCI?

Postby liLtuneChi » Sun May 29, 2011 1:54 am

RVP11 wrote:
liLtuneChi wrote:kinda slipped my mind


Yeah, flames are hard to manufacture.


if you think I'm making this up why do you continue to post?

just move on if you don't believe me

anyways I've gotten enough good info from most of the posters that I will most likely expand my bid list to about 15 firms now

but if I get on Law Review and my current firm offers me to come back next summer then I'll just stick with my current bid list plus Covington DC

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Re: Would I be stupid to bid on only 8 firms during OCI?

Postby liLtuneChi » Sun May 29, 2011 1:57 am

swc65 wrote:Uh, you have to bid well BEFORE you would have an offer in hand. Our bids are due 7-15 and I am certain that your SA gig lasts longer than that.


yeah but I'll probably just pull out of the interviews afterwards

I'll use my 30 bids at first then if I get the offer and make law review, I'll pull out of most of those interviews.

thanks TLS for helping me perfect my strategy going into OCI

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Re: Would I be stupid to bid on only 8 firms during OCI?

Postby DAJ_Summer » Sun May 29, 2011 8:58 am

I think OP would be wise to use more than 8 bids, at least without an offer (more importantly, a sufficiently appealing offer) from the 1L gig.

That being said, I think many of these criticisms are too harsh. The firms s(he) chose are obvious extremely selective, but I honestly think that for somebody who isn't sure what they want to do, with ridiculous credentials, there's not much harm in throwing them bids. Obviously it will be hard to sell Wachtell and Williams & Connolly at the same time, but OCI is a great opportunity to learn what you actually do and don't want by listening to attorneys in many different roles.

There are only 5-10 firms in the country that do OCI and realistically require top 14 + top 5% grades type credentials, and I don't think deciding to ask for a screening interview at each of them is really that crazy for the small population that falls into that range. Most people don't have strong enough creds to be able to comfortably "survive" sprinkling bids around the country / types of boutique firms, but OP absolutely does.

I think people who have already been through OCI develop a little bit of a hindsight bias. We know it's easier - broadly speaking - to focus on a narrow region and a relatively narrow practice area. But I sure as hell couldn't have told you as a 1L what a corporate attorney did much less whether - or why - I wanted to be one. Cold research helps, but I learned a lot during the callback process, and I'm not sure it makes sense to discourage people with extremely strong credentials from experimenting with bids a bit more broadly than an average applicant.

If I were OP, I'd probably bid every NYC firm in the V15-V20 or so plus all of the silly-selective firms (susman, munger, W&C, Wachtell, etc.). Why the hell not?

TL;DR probably OK to criticize OP for only using 8 bids (at least before the 1L summer info came out), but much less legit to criticize OP for choosing very selective but otherwise unrelated firms to interview at given their credentials.

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Re: Would I be stupid to bid on only 8 firms during OCI?

Postby Renzo » Sun May 29, 2011 9:43 am

DAJ_Summer wrote:TL;DR probably OK to criticize OP for only using 8 bids (at least before the 1L summer info came out), but much less legit to criticize OP for choosing very selective but otherwise unrelated firms to interview at given their credentials.


Really? Because I don't think it really matters if OP only wants to bid 8 firms; that isn't the silly part. The silly part is that he's only willing to bid firms based on perceived prestige, and no other metric.




edit for typo
Last edited by Renzo on Sun May 29, 2011 11:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Would I be stupid to bid on only 8 firms during OCI?

Postby DAJ_Summer » Sun May 29, 2011 11:08 am

Renzo wrote:
DAJ_Summer wrote:TL;DR probably OK to criticize OP for only using 8 bids (at least before the 1L summer info came out), but much less legit to criticize OP for choosing very selective but otherwise unrelated firms to interview at given their credentials.


Really? Because I don't think it really matters if OP only wants to bid 8 firms isn't the silly part. The silly part is that he's only willing to bid firms based on perceived prestige, and no other metric.


Yeah, I agree. But some of the criticism was just hammering on the geographic and practice area distinctions, which I think misses the mark. Those firms mixed in with another 10-20 big names in NYC or DC would seem at least defensible for any given person in OP's shoes.

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Re: Would I be stupid to bid on only 8 firms during OCI?

Postby rayiner » Sun May 29, 2011 11:36 am

DAJ_Summer wrote:
Renzo wrote:
DAJ_Summer wrote:TL;DR probably OK to criticize OP for only using 8 bids (at least before the 1L summer info came out), but much less legit to criticize OP for choosing very selective but otherwise unrelated firms to interview at given their credentials.


Really? Because I don't think it really matters if OP only wants to bid 8 firms isn't the silly part. The silly part is that he's only willing to bid firms based on perceived prestige, and no other metric.


Yeah, I agree. But some of the criticism was just hammering on the geographic and practice area distinctions, which I think misses the mark. Those firms mixed in with another 10-20 big names in NYC or DC would seem at least defensible for any given person in OP's shoes.


There is a huge difference between coming on the board and asking:

"Hay gais, I think I'm top 5% at CCN. Do you think these firms are worth a bid?"

and asking:

"Bros. I'm totally top 5% at CCN. I'm going to only bid on these firms!"

The former asks the question: "do I have a shot at these firms?" The answer is yes, of course. The latter asks: "am I a lock at these firms?" The answer is, of course, no.




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