How big of a role does physical appearance/race play in law?

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PDaddy
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Re: How big of a role does physical appearance/race play in law?

Postby PDaddy » Fri May 27, 2011 8:52 pm

Mickey Quicknumbers wrote:
excellent, the return of PDaddy.


Yes. I think I'll let you see the man behind the mask this year...a kinder, gentler PDaddy. lol.
Last edited by PDaddy on Fri May 27, 2011 8:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PDaddy
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Re: How big of a role does physical appearance/race play in law?

Postby PDaddy » Fri May 27, 2011 8:56 pm

The pictures of the Cravath lawyers raise a good point. None of these guys are male models, but they look "unassuming" yet professional. Being "too good-looking" can probably work against people in some instances.

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Kohinoor
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Re: How big of a role does physical appearance/race play in law?

Postby Kohinoor » Fri May 27, 2011 9:01 pm

BackToTheOldHouse wrote:Wow, Cravath just let you go ahead and use images of their lawyers on a forum like this? Cool . . .

I would pay good money to learn how you think the internet works.

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BackToTheOldHouse
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Re: How big of a role does physical appearance/race play in law?

Postby BackToTheOldHouse » Fri May 27, 2011 9:18 pm

Kohinoor wrote:
BackToTheOldHouse wrote:Wow, Cravath just let you go ahead and use images of their lawyers on a forum like this? Cool . . .

I would pay good money to learn how you think the internet works.

Well, it's a series of tubes . . . :twisted:

asoularisen
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Re: How big of a role does physical appearance/race play in law?

Postby asoularisen » Fri May 27, 2011 9:45 pm

tooswolle wrote:
asoularisen wrote:
tooswolle wrote:This post made me feel like slapping the shit out of the op. I can definitely tell your an undergrad. Life in the real world doesn't really hindge on the certain looks you have or your skin color. I've been fortunate to find success in the corporate world because i=I'm charasmatic, smart/qualified and chill. Your skin color has no bearing on employment decisions and if it did you wouldn't want to work there in the first place. So how about you start focusing on being able to get to school first then worrying about employment.


I made this topic just to receive information; stop being presumptuous. How about I start focusing on being able to get to school? I've already given my LSAT (I did so as a freshman) and received a 173. I haven't been in the real world, so of course I was curious and wanted information, I never implied that I thought discrimination was going to be a big deal, but I find it better to ask and get information than to assume. I'm not sitting here worried about discrimination in the world of law in lieu of actual preparation for law school. I simply was not informed on the subject and decided to get informed.


Fair enough, your post just hit a nerve because it sounded like an assumption that being brown would be a hinderance. Perhaps at times it can be if you meet the wrong people but for the most part in the real world people don't care about the color of your skin. Maybe because I'm fom California I feel that way but it seems many of your cohorts "our generation" have grown up with that mind set. Hope that helps.


Fair enough, I have met the type of person you are talking about and can see why I came off as fitting into that category. I'm definitely not one to blame racism first and look at my own flaws later, and it does also irk me when people tend to do that.

flexityflex86
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Re: How big of a role does physical appearance/race play in law?

Postby flexityflex86 » Fri May 27, 2011 9:47 pm

quakeroats wrote:Ten Cravath Partners chosen more or less at random:
ImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImage

No shaven heads.

No, and I stress this a lot in terms of appearance, no morbidly obese people. People say looks don't matter in law, but I've never seen a truly successful attorney who is a fat. Some chub is common, but nobody that has to exhale as they stand up for weight related reasons.

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Re: How big of a role does physical appearance/race play in law?

Postby quakeroats » Fri May 27, 2011 9:53 pm

flexityflex86 wrote:
No, and I stress this a lot in terms of appearance, no morbidly obese people. People say looks don't matter in law, but I've never seen a truly successful attorney who is a fat. Some chub is common, but nobody that has to exhale as they stand up for weight related reasons.

--ImageRemoved--

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RVP11
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Re: How big of a role does physical appearance/race play in law?

Postby RVP11 » Fri May 27, 2011 10:35 pm

flexityflex86 wrote:
quakeroats wrote:Ten Cravath Partners chosen more or less at random:
ImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImage

No shaven heads.

No, and I stress this a lot in terms of appearance, no morbidly obese people. People say looks don't matter in law, but I've never seen a truly successful attorney who is a fat. Some chub is common, but nobody that has to exhale as they stand up for weight related reasons.


If you don't think these guys are more attractive than the average man of similar age, or more attractive than the average LAWYER of similar age, you just haven't been around much.

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Moxie
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Re: How big of a role does physical appearance/race play in law?

Postby Moxie » Sat May 28, 2011 2:59 pm

chimp wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:After accepting my summer offer, one of the guys that hired me said in a joking manner that they almost didn't pick me, but did because I was the best looking. Then one of the women chimed up and said, no seriously, you were the best looking guy. I'm thinking they all had just come from happy hour or something and had beer goggles on lol. Posting this anon because I don't want any of my classmates to know this story...


Someone's gettin' some ass this summer...


And then gettin' no-offered :wink:

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Re: How big of a role does physical appearance/race play in law?

Postby flcath » Sat May 28, 2011 5:04 pm

flexityflex86 wrote:
quakeroats wrote:Ten Cravath Partners chosen more or less at random:
ImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImage

No shaven heads.

No, and I stress this a lot in terms of appearance, no morbidly obese people. People say looks don't matter in law, but I've never seen a truly successful attorney who is a fat. Some chub is common, but nobody that has to exhale as they stand up for weight related reasons.

They are all physically attractive ("he looks dignified/smart/like a good lawyer"), if not sexually attractive. If you imagine them 20 years younger (better hairlines) then they might even be that.

Less than impressive diversity...

Anonymous User
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Re: How big of a role does physical appearance/race play in law?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat May 28, 2011 5:07 pm

One week into my NY SA and I am surprised both by how attractive the girl SAs are and how unattractive the guy SAs are(there are obviously exceptions on both sides but not many)

flcath
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Re: How big of a role does physical appearance/race play in law?

Postby flcath » Sat May 28, 2011 5:13 pm

Anonymous User wrote:One week into my NY SA and I am surprised both by how attractive the girl SAs are and how unattractive the guy SAs are(there are obviously exceptions on both sides but not many)

The ideal environment.

HamDel
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Re: How big of a role does physical appearance/race play in law?

Postby HamDel » Sat May 28, 2011 5:18 pm

There are a lot of ugly people with bad personalities in biglaw. I think it's probably the field where looks and likeability matter least. Firms only care that you are willing to stay put and bill as many hours as you possibly can, and clients only care that the firm doesn't screw up their deals. Biglaw rewards people who are willing to make enormous sacrifices in their personal lives, and usually the people who succeed under these circumstances don't have busy social lives to begin with. Don't worry about it being a beauty contest, because it just isn't.

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Re: How big of a role does physical appearance/race play in law?

Postby HamDel » Sat May 28, 2011 5:45 pm

RVP11 wrote:
flexityflex86 wrote:
quakeroats wrote:Ten Cravath Partners chosen more or less at random:
ImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImage

No shaven heads.

No, and I stress this a lot in terms of appearance, no morbidly obese people. People say looks don't matter in law, but I've never seen a truly successful attorney who is a fat. Some chub is common, but nobody that has to exhale as they stand up for weight related reasons.


If you don't think these guys are more attractive than the average man of similar age, or more attractive than the average LAWYER of similar age, you just haven't been around much.


These people had their pictures taken in soft lighting by a professional photographer with professional photo editing software, and it looks like some might have had their hair professionally done that day/had makeup applied (except for the guy with the terrible hairpiece). The photographs of people on firm websites are generally misleading.

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Re: How big of a role does physical appearance/race play in law?

Postby quakeroats » Sat May 28, 2011 6:34 pm

Sullivan and Cromwell:

ImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImage

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quakeroats
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Re: How big of a role does physical appearance/race play in law?

Postby quakeroats » Sat May 28, 2011 6:43 pm

Sidley

ImageImageImageImage--ImageRemoved--Image ImageImageImageImage

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RVP11
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Re: How big of a role does physical appearance/race play in law?

Postby RVP11 » Sun May 29, 2011 1:21 am

You've now made this the creepiest topic on TLS. Congrats.

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Re: How big of a role does physical appearance/race play in law?

Postby quakeroats » Sun May 29, 2011 10:03 am

RVP11 wrote:You've now made this the creepiest topic on TLS. Congrats.


I'm scared to go any further down the rankings.

sidhesadie
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Re: How big of a role does physical appearance/race play in law?

Postby sidhesadie » Sun May 29, 2011 11:23 am

I actually agree that looking at new associates is going to be a better indicator, because looking at current partners is really examining hiring practices of 20 years ago, so I'm not surprised we see a dearth of brown people and people with vaginas.
Generally I think it's a bit more equitable in the younger levels of attorneys/more recent hires, at least that's what I've seen in the firms I've looked at here, your mileage may vary.

I think that in a lot of fields, being attractive as a female can be a huge advantage, I'm not so sure that it is in hiring in for attorneys. I do think it can help you if you litigate in a field with jury trials (to be attractive). I think that oftentimes for women, there is a perception of a negative correlation with looks and brains (ie, the 'hiring pretty women is only for jobs like strippers' comment...there's an accompanying attitude that attractive women are bound to be stupider).

I don't think any of these things are enough to be losing sleep about though; I suspect that generally speaking, the interviewee who has the best resume, is well-presented, seems the most confident and competent and fits in the best with the firm as perceived by those doing the hiring, will get the job.


There was a study, not in the legal field, about attractiveness and hiring and I recall it found that attractive females were LESS likely to be hired by female interviewers, but I'd have to go dig up the study again because I don't remember who did it now (used it in an undergrad class last year).

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Re: How big of a role does physical appearance/race play in law?

Postby viking138 » Sun May 29, 2011 12:40 pm

sidhesadie wrote:I actually agree that looking at new associates is going to be a better indicator, because looking at current partners is really examining hiring practices of 20 years ago, so I'm not surprised we see a dearth of brown people and people with vaginas.
Generally I think it's a bit more equitable in the younger levels of attorneys/more recent hires, at least that's what I've seen in the firms I've looked at here, your mileage may vary.

I think that in a lot of fields, being attractive as a female can be a huge advantage, I'm not so sure that it is in hiring in for attorneys. I do think it can help you if you litigate in a field with jury trials (to be attractive). I think that oftentimes for women, there is a perception of a negative correlation with looks and brains (ie, the 'hiring pretty women is only for jobs like strippers' comment...there's an accompanying attitude that attractive women are bound to be stupider).

I don't think any of these things are enough to be losing sleep about though; I suspect that generally speaking, the interviewee who has the best resume, is well-presented, seems the most confident and competent and fits in the best with the firm as perceived by those doing the hiring, will get the job.


There was a study, not in the legal field, about attractiveness and hiring and I recall it found that attractive females were LESS likely to be hired by female interviewers, but I'd have to go dig up the study again because I don't remember who did it now (used it in an undergrad class last year).


But remember, it's the white male partners who are deciding on promotions. That's why you see fairly representative hiring in associates (i.e. 50% women, 50% men, plenty of minorities) but then as you go up in years, it's mainly white men at most firms. I don't think it's racism/sexism as much as it is affluent white men relate better to other affluent white men. That's a much harder problem to solve than racism. Best solution is probably bone up on golf and read "stuff white people like."

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Re: How big of a role does physical appearance/race play in law?

Postby bjsesq » Tue May 31, 2011 10:23 am

asoularisen wrote:
bjsesq wrote:
paulinaporizkova wrote:i'm sorry you were born ugly


Thanks. I will now attempt to attribute all my failures in life to being ugly, rather than any personality shortcomings.


That was far from my motivation with this topic. I'm still an undergraduate; I wasn't making this topic in an attempt to make excuses, to not pursue law because of potential racial/physical biases, etc. I just wanted information. I don't see why people can't just give a mature answer and move on, rather than immediately getting presumptuous and throwing around "clever" one-liners...


It wasn't a shot at you, bro. I am ugly.

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Re: How big of a role does physical appearance/race play in law?

Postby NotMyRealName09 » Thu Jun 02, 2011 9:33 pm

You usually can't tell someone's physical attributes based on the briefs, which is really what matters for 99% of litigation. I know you said corporate, but I don't know corporate, but as to litigation it probably doesn't matter so long as you're competent.

And although I have no quantifiable basis for saying this, I almost think a drop-dead sexy woman wouldn't be taken as seriously by a jury. Discuss.
Last edited by NotMyRealName09 on Thu Jun 02, 2011 9:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How big of a role does physical appearance/race play in law?

Postby NotMyRealName09 » Thu Jun 02, 2011 9:35 pm

HamDel wrote:
RVP11 wrote:
flexityflex86 wrote:
quakeroats wrote:No shaven heads.

No, and I stress this a lot in terms of appearance, no morbidly obese people. People say looks don't matter in law, but I've never seen a truly successful attorney who is a fat. Some chub is common, but nobody that has to exhale as they stand up for weight related reasons.


If you don't think these guys are more attractive than the average man of similar age, or more attractive than the average LAWYER of similar age, you just haven't been around much.


These people had their pictures taken in soft lighting by a professional photographer with professional photo editing software, and it looks like some might have had their hair professionally done that day/had makeup applied (except for the guy with the terrible hairpiece). The photographs of people on firm websites are generally misleading.


I know a very heavy man - fat - who banks in product's liability litigation. At the end of the day, it's competence that matters.

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RVP11
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Re: How big of a role does physical appearance/race play in law?

Postby RVP11 » Fri Jun 03, 2011 2:45 am

NotMyRealName09 wrote:I know a very heavy man - fat - who banks in product's liability litigation. At the end of the day, it's competence that matters.


Oh you know one guy who doesn't look good but is still successful?

Okay, case closed guys. End thread.

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shepdawg
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Re: How big of a role does physical appearance/race play in law?

Postby shepdawg » Fri Jun 03, 2011 2:51 am

It matters. The good looking lawyers on my street have bigger mansions and more mexicans on staff than the ugly ones.




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