What to Have When Preparing for OCI

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Renzo
Posts: 4265
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 3:23 am

Re: What to Have When Preparing for OCI

Postby Renzo » Thu May 26, 2011 9:06 pm

DAJ_Summer wrote:
beachbum wrote:
RVP11 wrote:If you can get a job at Cravath, you can also probably get a job at at least one of SullCrom, DPW, STB, Cleary, Kirkland, etc.

I - and I think most other sane people - would take any of those firms over Cravath.


An ignorant 0L question, but what makes Cravath so bad? Is it just the hours? And are they really that much worse than comparable firms? It seems strange that one firm would work its associates so much harder, particularly when overall compensation at that firm is similar (if not identical) to its peers.


What RVP11 wrote in response sums up a lot of the thoughts people have about it. Cravath's prestige is largely historical - it has a hell of a lot more peers (true peers, not near peers) these days than it used to.

While people work long hours at any firm, at Cravath it's particularly cultural and unavoidable. Firms have reputations that are stereotypical and not always true on an individual level, but Cravath's reputation for yelling or sternness or formality is definitely nut entirely undeserved.

Cravath also arguably suffered the worst in the down turn amongst its 'peer' group, which was surprising and damning.

What it really boils down to isn't that Cravath is bad, it's that its flaws and quirks are not really balanced out by major positive sides. The deals and exit options and cases and compensation and perks at Cravath, to most people, don't actually compensate at all for the perceived harshness compared to its competitors. All that's really left is that historical veneer of prestige.

And the silliest poast of the day goes to....... This guy!

It's probably a bit less of a genteel and "nice" firm than others, so if you like that environment it might not be for you. But otherwise this is crazy. All biglaw hours are bad. Lifestyle firms are largely a myth, and to the extent they do exist, they are not comparable to Cravath.

If by "historical veneer of prestige" you mean "involvement in many of the biggest and most high-profile matters around," then I agree. And I don't know what "worst among it's peers" means. So it's the worst among the top eight or so firms in the world? OH NOES! I also don't know who these "most people" are that don't feel like the pay and exit options at Cravath aren't good; it doesn't seem to me like they're having trouble filling their summer class with top students/top schools.

DAJ_Summer
Posts: 39
Joined: Mon May 23, 2011 10:50 pm

Re: What to Have When Preparing for OCI

Postby DAJ_Summer » Thu May 26, 2011 9:12 pm

Renzo wrote:; it doesn't seem to me like they're having trouble filling their summer class with top students/top schools.


Cravath had a lot of trouble filling their summer class last fall.

It's important to realize the context of this conversation though: objectively, Cravath is one of the greatest and most prestigious enterprises on the planet. It does fantastic work and compensates (in more ways than just $$$) its attorneys incredibly generously for the work they put in. It's at the top of a very competitive field.

All of that being said, there are reasons why it is derided amongst its peer group, especially in the context of those who try to argue it is <i>superior</i> to its peer group. There's a difference between big law hours, New York big law hours, and Cravath hours. I'm not making this up, I'm comparing and contrasting my experience and those of friends at Cravath and elsewhere. It's impression based on limited sample, but I have ever reason to believe it holds more broadly.

User avatar
RVP11
Posts: 2774
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:32 pm

Re: What to Have When Preparing for OCI

Postby RVP11 » Thu May 26, 2011 10:43 pm

Renzo wrote:
DAJ_Summer wrote:
beachbum wrote:
RVP11 wrote:If you can get a job at Cravath, you can also probably get a job at at least one of SullCrom, DPW, STB, Cleary, Kirkland, etc.

I - and I think most other sane people - would take any of those firms over Cravath.


An ignorant 0L question, but what makes Cravath so bad? Is it just the hours? And are they really that much worse than comparable firms? It seems strange that one firm would work its associates so much harder, particularly when overall compensation at that firm is similar (if not identical) to its peers.


What RVP11 wrote in response sums up a lot of the thoughts people have about it. Cravath's prestige is largely historical - it has a hell of a lot more peers (true peers, not near peers) these days than it used to.

While people work long hours at any firm, at Cravath it's particularly cultural and unavoidable. Firms have reputations that are stereotypical and not always true on an individual level, but Cravath's reputation for yelling or sternness or formality is definitely nut entirely undeserved.

Cravath also arguably suffered the worst in the down turn amongst its 'peer' group, which was surprising and damning.

What it really boils down to isn't that Cravath is bad, it's that its flaws and quirks are not really balanced out by major positive sides. The deals and exit options and cases and compensation and perks at Cravath, to most people, don't actually compensate at all for the perceived harshness compared to its competitors. All that's really left is that historical veneer of prestige.

And the silliest poast of the day goes to....... This guy!

It's probably a bit less of a genteel and "nice" firm than others, so if you like that environment it might not be for you. But otherwise this is crazy. All biglaw hours are bad. Lifestyle firms are largely a myth, and to the extent they do exist, they are not comparable to Cravath.

If by "historical veneer of prestige" you mean "involvement in many of the biggest and most high-profile matters around," then I agree. And I don't know what "worst among it's peers" means. So it's the worst among the top eight or so firms in the world? OH NOES! I also don't know who these "most people" are that don't feel like the pay and exit options at Cravath aren't good; it doesn't seem to me like they're having trouble filling their summer class with top students/top schools.


I hope you have a good summer at Cravath.

Renzo
Posts: 4265
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 3:23 am

Re: What to Have When Preparing for OCI

Postby Renzo » Thu May 26, 2011 10:46 pm

RVP11 wrote:
I hope you have a good summer at Cravath.

Funny thing is I'm Cravath trolling, and I'm at a different sweatshop this summer.

Sup Kid
Posts: 557
Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2010 2:49 pm

Re: What to Have When Preparing for OCI

Postby Sup Kid » Fri May 27, 2011 12:27 am

DAJ_Summer wrote:Cravath had a lot of trouble filling their summer class last fall.

LMAO

Anonymous User
Posts: 273314
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: What to Have When Preparing for OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Fri May 27, 2011 3:00 am

DAJ_Summer wrote:
Renzo wrote:; it doesn't seem to me like they're having trouble filling their summer class with top students/top schools.


Cravath had a lot of trouble filling their summer class last fall.

It's important to realize the context of this conversation though: objectively, Cravath is one of the greatest and most prestigious enterprises on the planet. It does fantastic work and compensates (in more ways than just $$$) its attorneys incredibly generously for the work they put in. It's at the top of a very competitive field.

All of that being said, there are reasons why it is derided amongst its peer group, especially in the context of those who try to argue it is <i>superior</i> to its peer group. There's a difference between big law hours, New York big law hours, and Cravath hours. I'm not making this up, I'm comparing and contrasting my experience and those of friends at Cravath and elsewhere. It's impression based on limited sample, but I have ever reason to believe it holds more broadly.


I know a super gunner who left Cravath after one year for another biglaw firm in New York. Don't Cravath associates bill something like 2700+ hours a year?




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