List of real salaries across different legal markets

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quakeroats
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Re: List of real salaries across different legal markets

Postby quakeroats » Mon May 16, 2011 4:01 am

Fark-o-vision wrote:Is your avatar David Foster Wallace?


Yes.

I could be way off base on all accounts


That's two points of agreement in one post. I'd say we're on a roll.

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rayiner
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Re: List of real salaries across different legal markets

Postby rayiner » Mon May 16, 2011 7:19 am

Oh, and plus, with all the money you save living in the midwest, you can afford to save up for a vacation to NYC, visit the art museum, see the statue of liberty, eat overpriced food that tastes like shit, sit in a puddle of piss on the subway, and not have to deal with it for the other 355 days of the year. I'm just sayin'...


For the $10k difference in take home pay alone b/w NYC and Chicago (taxes), I could take a vacation to Paris or Rome each year and see legit culture and art.

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rayiner
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Re: List of real salaries across different legal markets

Postby rayiner » Mon May 16, 2011 7:51 am

quakeroats wrote:and you probably haven't tried enough food to know whether or not you're a foodie. You're right next to Chicago so stop in at Alinea or Charlie Trotter's; you just might change your mind.


There's a difference between being a foodie and being a prestige eater. NY

On a biglaw salary, you can't afford to eat at Per Se on a regular basis. So the availability of high-end places is only tangentially related to how suitable a city is for your typical foodie. What matters is the quality of the place around the corner, where you'll be eating alone while finishing your doc review. NYC is strong in this area too, but that strength has little to do with Per Se and the like.

There are lots of good cities for foodies. Portland, OR has some great food. Your typical around the corner place has incredibly fresh seafood, the likes of which you're not going to get in any heavily polluted east coast city. And it's hard to beat produce grown by some pothead hobby farmer in upstate Washington.

The biggest drawback of NYC for foodies goes back to the housing situation. Legit foodies cook. While it can be done, it's much less fun to cook in a cramped kitchen without heat-resistent countertops. You can, of course, find nice modern kitchens in NYC, but they cost $$$.

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Big Shrimpin
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Re: List of real salaries across different legal markets

Postby Big Shrimpin » Mon May 16, 2011 9:32 am

BruceWayne wrote:
Big Shrimpin wrote:LOL at 1L/0Ls, ITT, saying NYC blows. Wait until OCI ends. You might just end up there.


Lol at not realizing that moving to a place because you have no other choice has no impact on whether you personally like or dislike it....


At what point in my poast did I insinuate that the two were associated as such? You can surely hate the city in which you work. I get it that NYC compares miserably to other areas in the US w/r/t how far salary dollars go. It sucks, period, but it's a paying jerb.

OCI's a funny game, dooder. Even doods at your T-14 with decent grades will strike-out, possibly due to bidding inefficiency. But I's sure you won't be one of them. :wink:

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thickfreakness
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Re: List of real salaries across different legal markets

Postby thickfreakness » Mon May 16, 2011 9:39 am

Secondary market associate: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c764JWVt5Fw

timbs4339
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Re: List of real salaries across different legal markets

Postby timbs4339 » Mon May 16, 2011 11:12 am

BruceWayne wrote:
Big Shrimpin wrote:LOL at 1L/0Ls, ITT, saying NYC blows. Wait until OCI ends. You might just end up there.


Lol at not realizing that moving to a place because you have no other choice has no impact on whether you personally like or dislike it. Also for people attending schools outside of the NYC market they have just as great (actually a greater) chance at ending up in that school's home market--not NYC--contrary to popular TLS belief. If you go to Florida State you're probably going to end up working in Florida, no matter how many biglaw jobs are in NYC. UT-Austin grads are probably going to end up in Texas, UGA grads in Georgia, Colorado grads in Colorado etc.

keg411 wrote:
Big Shrimpin wrote:LOL at 1L/0Ls, ITT, saying NYC blows. Wait until OCI ends. You might just end up there.


+1.

You go to NYC because there are actually jobs in NYC. But let the median students bid on secondary markets, and then watch the shitshow in this year's OCI thread.


Lol if the median students go to a school in a secondary market, that secondary market is their best shot at a job. UGA and Florida state median aren't getting jobs in NYC. And for the people who go to top 14 schools but are from secondary markets, that's often their best shot at a job if that secondary market receives most of its competition from regional schools. Not to mention that this comment has no impact on the desirability of working in a secondary market--which was the main point of the thread.


That last part is just wrong. It assumes that the top students from that secondary market who go to a T14 would rather work at a middling NYC firm over a top secondary market firm. In my experience most top students would not turn down a top firm in Houston, LA, SF, Boston, or any other city to work at a V40-V20 in NYC. Most top students I know had preferences such as DC > NYC V10 > top secondary market > NYC other. The firms from the secondary markets, because they only see the 20 or 40 students with ties to that secondary market, will generally call back the students with top grades (who will get all the cbs from that market). Firms do not yield protect to the extent that law schools do (and the ones that do are generally larger NYC firms).

The more regional schools, the more this hurts the prospects for median T14 people. Firms generally want to maintain relationships with local schools. So if they don't get the students they called back from a top school the first time, they can just go back to the regional schools and fill out their summer class.

At my school, median students had much more luck in bidding NYC than their home markets.

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Re: List of real salaries across different legal markets

Postby BruceWayne » Mon May 16, 2011 11:13 am

Big Shrimpin wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:
Big Shrimpin wrote:LOL at 1L/0Ls, ITT, saying NYC blows. Wait until OCI ends. You might just end up there.


Lol at not realizing that moving to a place because you have no other choice has no impact on whether you personally like or dislike it....


At what point in my poast did I insinuate that the two were associated as such? You can surely hate the city in which you work. I get it that NYC compares miserably to other areas in the US w/r/t how far salary dollars go. It sucks, period, but it's a paying jerb.

OCI's a funny game, dooder. Even doods at your T-14 with decent grades will strike-out, possibly due to bidding inefficiency. But I's sure you won't be one of them. :wink:


You're still missing it. I guess you just have some sort of fixation with hoping that people "strike out" and have to live in NYC. Whether I like/dislike a locale or not and whether I can get a job there are two totally unrelated concepts. I can't get with Kim Kardashian, but that doesn't make her any less desirable. I can get a old moped, that doesn't make it any more desirable.

In addition, I promise you I have a better chance at getting a job where I'm from than in NYC (as do the majority of people that aren't from places like LA or DC). That's one thing that's very wrong and overly quoted on here. You do NOT automatically have a better shot at getting a job in NYC no matter what and regardless of your circumstances. As our OGI handbook and career services recently tried to stress to us, one of your best shots at getting a job is in your home town/region/market. This thing about it's always easier to get a job in NYC is just wrong--particularly when you're competing with so many other top schools for jobs in NYC. You have a better shot at getting a job in Richmond if you're from Richmond and go to UVA--than you do in NYC.

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BruceWayne
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Re: List of real salaries across different legal markets

Postby BruceWayne » Mon May 16, 2011 11:15 am

timbs4339 wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:
Big Shrimpin wrote:LOL at 1L/0Ls, ITT, saying NYC blows. Wait until OCI ends. You might just end up there.


Lol at not realizing that moving to a place because you have no other choice has no impact on whether you personally like or dislike it. Also for people attending schools outside of the NYC market they have just as great (actually a greater) chance at ending up in that school's home market--not NYC--contrary to popular TLS belief. If you go to Florida State you're probably going to end up working in Florida, no matter how many biglaw jobs are in NYC. UT-Austin grads are probably going to end up in Texas, UGA grads in Georgia, Colorado grads in Colorado etc.

keg411 wrote:
Big Shrimpin wrote:LOL at 1L/0Ls, ITT, saying NYC blows. Wait until OCI ends. You might just end up there.


+1.

You go to NYC because there are actually jobs in NYC. But let the median students bid on secondary markets, and then watch the shitshow in this year's OCI thread.


Lol if the median students go to a school in a secondary market, that secondary market is their best shot at a job. UGA and Florida state median aren't getting jobs in NYC. And for the people who go to top 14 schools but are from secondary markets, that's often their best shot at a job if that secondary market receives most of its competition from regional schools. Not to mention that this comment has no impact on the desirability of working in a secondary market--which was the main point of the thread.


That last part is just wrong. It assumes that the top students from that secondary market who go to a T14 would rather work at a middling NYC firm over a top secondary market firm. In my experience most top students would not turn down a top firm in Houston, LA, SF, Boston, or any other city to work at a V40-V20 in NYC. Most top students I know had preferences such as DC > NYC V10 > top secondary market > NYC other. The firms from the secondary markets, because they only see the 20 or 40 students with ties to that secondary market, will generally call back the students with top grades (who will get all the cbs from that market). Firms do not yield protect to the extent that law schools do (and the ones that do are generally larger NYC firms).

The more regional schools, the more this hurts the prospects for median T14 people. Firms generally want to maintain relationships with local schools. So if they don't get the students they called back from a top school the first time, they can just go back to the regional schools and fill out their summer class.

At my school, median students had much more luck in bidding NYC than their home markets.


Are you talking about median students who aren't from the secondary market they're applying to? That's not even what I'm talking about. Secondary markets DO NOT unanimously prefer people from the local regional schools over people from that region/market who just decided to go off and attend a top 14. Yes if you bid on a secondary market and you're from DC you're probably going to have problems. But that's not what I'm talking about. If you're from Atlanta and go to Duke, you will NOT have a harder time getting a job in Atlanta than an Emory or UGA student. That's just TLS bullshit. Actually if it was true, it would greatly contradict this website's comments that the top 14 are better than lower schools and are "national". It would basically mean that they were only good for working in NYC, and that it's better to go to a local regional school than a top 14 if you don't want to work in NYC (ie UGA> UVA/Duke for Atlanta, UCLA/USC> than Columbia and Michigan for LA, UHouston> Harvard for Houston--all of this assuming the student is from the secondary market).

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Big Shrimpin
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Re: List of real salaries across different legal markets

Postby Big Shrimpin » Mon May 16, 2011 11:33 am

BruceWayne wrote:
Big Shrimpin wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:
Big Shrimpin wrote:LOL at 1L/0Ls, ITT, saying NYC blows. Wait until OCI ends. You might just end up there.


Lol at not realizing that moving to a place because you have no other choice has no impact on whether you personally like or dislike it....


At what point in my poast did I insinuate that the two were associated as such? You can surely hate the city in which you work. I get it that NYC compares miserably to other areas in the US w/r/t how far salary dollars go. It sucks, period, but it's a paying jerb.

OCI's a funny game, dooder. Even doods at your T-14 with decent grades will strike-out, possibly due to bidding inefficiency. But I's sure you won't be one of them. :wink:


You're still missing it. I guess you just have some sort of fixation with hoping that people "strike out" and have to live in NYC. Whether I like/dislike a locale or not and whether I can get a job there are two totally unrelated concepts. I can't get with Kim Kardashian, but that doesn't make her any less desirable. I can get a old moped, that doesn't make it any more desirable.

In addition, I promise you I have a better chance at getting a job where I'm from than in NYC (as do the majority of people that aren't from places like LA or DC). That's one thing that's very wrong and overly quoted on here. You do NOT automatically have a better shot at getting a job in NYC no matter what and regardless of your circumstances. As our OGI handbook and career services recently tried to stress to us, one of your best shots at getting a job is in your home town/region/market. This thing about it's always easier to get a job in NYC is just wrong--particularly when you're competing with so many other top schools for jobs in NYC. You have a better shot at getting a job in Richmond if you're from Richmond and go to UVA--than you do in NYC.


You're not getting me either, broseidon. I'm agreeing with your point about dislike of city being unrelated to ability to land work there. The converse of that argument doesn't even make sense, unless you tell interviewers you hate city xyz.

I'm not going to agree forthright to your statement about regional markets, however. My experience was otherwise, and NYC was far easier to land a jerb than both my home and school market . Your suggestion about regional markets is a strategy, not an absolute. During oci, individual mileage may vary depending upon myriad factors. In some cases, you'll be completely correct. In some, you won't. That's the nature of oci, it's not necessarily predictable.

Oh, and ftr, I DO NOT wish anyone to strike-out during oci. I hope all the 2Ls kill it this year.

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Re: List of real salaries across different legal markets

Postby Fark-o-vision » Mon May 16, 2011 12:24 pm

quakeroats wrote:
Fark-o-vision wrote:Is your avatar David Foster Wallace?


Yes.

I could be way off base on all accounts


That's two points of agreement in one post. I'd say we're on a roll.



That was my entire point. People have their own preferences, but unless your preferences point you to NYC then you're costing yourself a lot of money, and happiness, by being anywhere near there. If you're into that stuff, NYC is probably the only place you can get that particular brand of culture.

I couldn't help but smile at the choice of Avatar, given that its a guy who went to school in Arizona and lived in California because he found the east unlivable.

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Re: List of real salaries across different legal markets

Postby timbs4339 » Mon May 16, 2011 1:36 pm

BruceWayne wrote:Are you talking about median students who aren't from the secondary market they're applying to? That's not even what I'm talking about. Secondary markets DO NOT unanimously prefer people from the local regional schools over people from that region/market who just decided to go off and attend a top 14. Yes if you bid on a secondary market and you're from DC you're probably going to have problems. But that's not what I'm talking about. If you're from Atlanta and go to Duke, you will NOT have a harder time getting a job in Atlanta than an Emory or UGA student. That's just TLS bullshit. Actually if it was true, it would greatly contradict this website's comments that the top 14 are better than lower schools and are "national". It would basically mean that they were only good for working in NYC, and that it's better to go to a local regional school than a top 14 if you don't want to work in NYC (ie UGA> UVA/Duke for Atlanta, UCLA/USC> than Columbia and Michigan for LA, UHouston> Harvard for Houston--all of this assuming the student is from the secondary market).


No, I'm talking about median students, at T14 schools, who are from or have ties to the secondary market they want to return to.

You're asking the wrong question. It's not whether a T14 median student from Los Angeles has a better shot of being hired than a student at a regional LA school. It's whether that median student has a better chance of being hired over other students at his own school, assuming they both have ties to that same market. In my experience, many high-grade students (who would be autoadmits at most NYC firms) understand that CoL/QoL is better in secondary markets and would gladly return to top firms in their home markets over V40 or V20 firms in NYC with sweatshop reputations. Hence, why I would advise a median student at CCN who wants a biglaw job to bid on all NYC firms rather than try to take advantage of less competition in a secondary market because the idea that this market is less competitive is largely a myth.

What going to a regional school also gets you is a guaranteed shot at the firms in that market. A firm in Boston is going to hire BU/BC students. They could probably hire some T14 student if they really wanted to, in fact I bet they could fill their classes with T14 students and no hire any BC/BU students. However, they want to have a certain number of BU/BC students, whereas they don't really mind not getting any students from UVa or Michigan. And if none of the students they callback from UVa or Mich accept, they will just fill those callback slots with more local students.


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Re: List of real salaries across different legal markets

Postby sundance95 » Mon May 16, 2011 1:57 pm

aliarrow wrote:http://images.businessweek.com/ss/10/06/0622_most_expensive_cities/index.htm?campaign_id=yahoo

Discuss

ECA’s ranking is based on a basket of 128 goods that includes food, daily goods, clothing, electronics, and entertainment, but not rent, utilities, and school fees

This makes this ranking pretty worthless.

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Re: List of real salaries across different legal markets

Postby aliarrow » Mon May 16, 2011 2:03 pm

I suppose so... here's one that includes housing

--LinkRemoved--

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Re: List of real salaries across different legal markets

Postby X_Soda » Mon May 16, 2011 2:07 pm

Man, can't believe some of the ignorant fucktards around here masquerading as financially sensible squares. If any of you economically enlightened cats decide that WUSTL life is getting a little vapid and decide to transfer to a real city, you might find that the notion of a $3000 200x200 studio is a grossly exaggerated myth. I'm dropping a little more than a thou and living in a clean, spacious (maybe not Texas spacious, but I have tons a music equipment and not even I lust for such superfluous space), and safe studio. $3000 could buy me a) insane luxury or b) a movie star ridden location. As for grocery shopping -- if you're too inept to figure out where to go you MIGHT end up paying a decent markup, but there have been plenty of times when I've paid an equal or less amount for grocery items as I used to in a small west coast city. This thread is a perfect example of typical TLS naivete... 0Ls and 1Ls giving each other digital pats on the back for rattling off numbers that exist in a vacuum and mean next to nothing in a real Quality of Living assessment. New York City is where it's at, people.

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Re: List of real salaries across different legal markets

Postby sundance95 » Mon May 16, 2011 2:10 pm

X_Soda wrote:Man, can't believe some of the ignorant fucktards around here masquerading as financially sensible squares. If any of you economically enlightened cats decide that WUSTL life is getting a little vapid and decide to transfer to a real city, you might find that the notion of a $3000 200x200 studio is a grossly exaggerated myth. I'm dropping a little more than a thou and living in a clean, spacious (maybe not Texas spacious, but I have tons a music equipment and not even I lust for such superfluous space), and safe studio. $3000 could buy me a) insane luxury or b) a movie star ridden location. As for grocery shopping -- if you're too inept to figure out where to go you MIGHT end up paying a decent markup, but there have been plenty of times when I've paid an equal or less amount for grocery items as I used to in a small west coast city. This thread is a perfect example of typical TLS naivete... 0Ls and 1Ls giving each other digital pats on the back for rattling off numbers that exist in a vacuum and mean next to nothing in a real Quality of Living assessment. New York City is where it's at, people.

That's a nice straw man you got there.

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DoubleChecks
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Re: List of real salaries across different legal markets

Postby DoubleChecks » Mon May 16, 2011 2:14 pm

read 2 pages in this thread and i can already see it is like most other divisive threads

one side trashing NYC living, other side saying how inaccurate that is and NYC isnt like that at all, etc.

truth is prob somewhere in the middle, or so random depending on individual circumstances that no side is really correct -- though im sure the calculator is useful for some measures as others have stated in the first 2 pages

that being said, whatevs, as long as everyone is in agreement that TX is the best choice :P

jp

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Re: List of real salaries across different legal markets

Postby X_Soda » Mon May 16, 2011 2:17 pm

sundance95 wrote:
X_Soda wrote:Man, can't believe some of the ignorant fucktards around here masquerading as financially sensible squares. If any of you economically enlightened cats decide that WUSTL life is getting a little vapid and decide to transfer to a real city, you might find that the notion of a $3000 200x200 studio is a grossly exaggerated myth. I'm dropping a little more than a thou and living in a clean, spacious (maybe not Texas spacious, but I have tons a music equipment and not even I lust for such superfluous space), and safe studio. $3000 could buy me a) insane luxury or b) a movie star ridden location. As for grocery shopping -- if you're too inept to figure out where to go you MIGHT end up paying a decent markup, but there have been plenty of times when I've paid an equal or less amount for grocery items as I used to in a small west coast city. This thread is a perfect example of typical TLS naivete... 0Ls and 1Ls giving each other digital pats on the back for rattling off numbers that exist in a vacuum and mean next to nothing in a real Quality of Living assessment. New York City is where it's at, people.

That's a nice straw man you got there.


Ha, I wish it was, but I once saw someone on this very site say something along the lines of, "Would go to an NYC T14, but don't want to end up paying $5000 for a studio."

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Re: List of real salaries across different legal markets

Postby nonprofit-prophet » Mon May 16, 2011 2:17 pm

X_Soda wrote:Man, can't believe some of the ignorant fucktards around here masquerading as financially sensible squares. If any of you economically enlightened cats decide that WUSTL life is getting a little vapid and decide to transfer to a real city, you might find that the notion of a $3000 200x200 studio is a grossly exaggerated myth. I'm dropping a little more than a thou and living in a clean, spacious (maybe not Texas spacious, but I have tons a music equipment and not even I lust for such superfluous space), and safe studio. $3000 could buy me a) insane luxury or b) a movie star ridden location. As for grocery shopping -- if you're too inept to figure out where to go you MIGHT end up paying a decent markup, but there have been plenty of times when I've paid an equal or less amount for grocery items as I used to in a small west coast city. This thread is a perfect example of typical TLS naivete... 0Ls and 1Ls giving each other digital pats on the back for rattling off numbers that exist in a vacuum and mean next to nothing in a real Quality of Living assessment. New York City is where it's at, people.



I'm from nyc, born and raised. This is also full of exaggerations. It all depends on neighborhood. 3k couldnt get you something insane, as you say. My step bro had a 1 bedroom for 2k in alphabet city (not terrible, but definitely not upper east side). My family rented out our 2 bedroom apt in LES back in the late 90s for 5k a month. Again, this isn't soho or central park west.

Can you find a place for 1k in the city? Sure, probably in brooklyn or something super tiny in manhattan in an ok neighborhood.

Bottom line: the city is expensive. places for under 2k (without roommates) are the exception, not the rule.
Last edited by nonprofit-prophet on Mon May 16, 2011 2:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: List of real salaries across different legal markets

Postby aliarrow » Mon May 16, 2011 2:17 pm

DoubleChecks wrote:read 2 pages in this thread and i can already see it is like most other divisive threads

one side trashing NYC living, other side saying how inaccurate that is and NYC isnt like that at all, etc.

truth is prob somewhere in the middle, or so random depending on individual circumstances that no side is really correct -- though im sure the calculator is useful for some measures as others have stated in the first 2 pages

that being said, whatevs, as long as everyone is in agreement that TXTTTexas is the best choice :P

jp


I at least attempted to derail this drawn out argument. But Texas is so overrated.

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rayiner
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Re: List of real salaries across different legal markets

Postby rayiner » Mon May 16, 2011 5:28 pm

X_Soda wrote:Man, can't believe some of the ignorant fucktards around here masquerading as financially sensible squares. If any of you economically enlightened cats decide that WUSTL life is getting a little vapid and decide to transfer to a real city, you might find that the notion of a $3000 200x200 studio is a grossly exaggerated myth. I'm dropping a little more than a thou and living in a clean, spacious (maybe not Texas spacious, but I have tons a music equipment and not even I lust for such superfluous space), and safe studio. $3000 could buy me a) insane luxury or b) a movie star ridden location. As for grocery shopping -- if you're too inept to figure out where to go you MIGHT end up paying a decent markup, but there have been plenty of times when I've paid an equal or less amount for grocery items as I used to in a small west coast city. This thread is a perfect example of typical TLS naivete... 0Ls and 1Ls giving each other digital pats on the back for rattling off numbers that exist in a vacuum and mean next to nothing in a real Quality of Living assessment. New York City is where it's at, people.


Where is this insanely luxurious apartment for $3k and how long is the commute from there to midtown or fidi? Serious question, I need to go apartment hunting for next year. Would like some place with minimal train transfers/walking in summer heat in a suit.

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Re: List of real salaries across different legal markets

Postby aliarrow » Mon May 16, 2011 5:32 pm

One of the first results on craigslist
--LinkRemoved--

$2,300 for a pretty nice 1 br in the upper east side.

I'd dare to call it luxury

1br, Upper east side, $1,800
--LinkRemoved--

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irie
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Re: List of real salaries across different legal markets

Postby irie » Mon May 16, 2011 5:40 pm

why the hell would u want to live anywhere else but ny?

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Re: List of real salaries across different legal markets

Postby 98234872348 » Mon May 16, 2011 5:45 pm

.
Last edited by 98234872348 on Sat Aug 20, 2011 1:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

X_Soda
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Re: List of real salaries across different legal markets

Postby X_Soda » Mon May 16, 2011 5:55 pm

Perhaps my use of the word insane was a little haphazard. But 3k a month will get you much further than people on this board who have never lived in NYC claim. I've seen and even been to (as a prospective renter) very luxurious places, close to the 1 2 and 3 lines (a 20 minute commute to Midtown at the busiest hours), in lower West Harlem for between 2500 and 3000. I'm talking hot tub/gym amenities, doorman, and lovely, modern, and spacious studies. On the flipside, I know people who are living in some of the most coveted neighborhoods (West Village, Chelsea, even Soho) for $3000 and less. Are their pads compact? Yes, but they're certainly not dingy, and they're paying for a prime location. The point is that you certainly won't be living like a student on 3k a month for rent.

My bottom line is this. 0Ls come onto this board, many of them with little life/work experience, many of them hoping that law school will unlock some new, stimulating experiences and opportunities before they fully enter the workforce. They are pummeled with arguments by jaded law students and 0Ls trying to emulate those students to fit into the community. The arguments are often armchair at best -- advising against a location they've never been to and have no conception of simply because of some COL numbers they found on the web. This logic pattern is repeatedly thrown at them until the kids who were once hoping to garner some kind of life experience from law school have diminished their decision making process to a simple spreadsheet with a few columns: Big Law Placement, Scholly Money, Cost of Living. The logic here is intoxicating because it's so damn uniform -- one can predict the responses to a thread based on its title. It's hard to resist it if you hang around here long enough. I just wish there were more people around to dispel some of the ridiculous statements about things like this. Maybe then we'd have a lot less jaded students who hauled their asses off to some Midwest shithole based on a few elementary number arguments.




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