List of real salaries across different legal markets

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Fark-o-vision
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Re: List of real salaries across different legal markets

Postby Fark-o-vision » Sun May 15, 2011 8:43 pm

quakeroats wrote:
G. T. L. Rev. wrote:Just one more reason why NYC biglaw is TTT. Note that the adjusted wealth numbers get even worse when you factor in the reality that NYC associates work appreciably longer hours than everyone else, even within the same firms.


A few of many factors that you might want to consider:

New York has more top restaurants than any city in the world (Paris would be a debatable exception, but it wasn't on the secondary-cities list)
New York has better access to arts and culture than any city listed.
Living in New York gives you greater access to people with power.
If you plan on sticking with law, compensation ratios for NY:non-NY partners tends to be higher than for NY:non-NY associates.


This statement is often made by people with absolutely no understanding of art or culture.

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kwais
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Re: List of real salaries across different legal markets

Postby kwais » Sun May 15, 2011 8:46 pm

Fark-o-vision wrote:
quakeroats wrote:
G. T. L. Rev. wrote:Just one more reason why NYC biglaw is TTT. Note that the adjusted wealth numbers get even worse when you factor in the reality that NYC associates work appreciably longer hours than everyone else, even within the same firms.


A few of many factors that you might want to consider:

New York has more top restaurants than any city in the world (Paris would be a debatable exception, but it wasn't on the secondary-cities list)
New York has better access to arts and culture than any city listed.
Living in New York gives you greater access to people with power.
If you plan on sticking with law, compensation ratios for NY:non-NY partners tends to be higher than for NY:non-NY associates.


This statement is often made by people with absolutely no understanding of art or culture.


are you serious? what city rivals NY arts and culture? And please don't mention anything besides maybe SanFran

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dr123
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Re: List of real salaries across different legal markets

Postby dr123 » Sun May 15, 2011 8:48 pm

kwais wrote:
Fark-o-vision wrote:
quakeroats wrote:
G. T. L. Rev. wrote:Just one more reason why NYC biglaw is TTT. Note that the adjusted wealth numbers get even worse when you factor in the reality that NYC associates work appreciably longer hours than everyone else, even within the same firms.


A few of many factors that you might want to consider:

New York has more top restaurants than any city in the world (Paris would be a debatable exception, but it wasn't on the secondary-cities list)
New York has better access to arts and culture than any city listed.
Living in New York gives you greater access to people with power.
If you plan on sticking with law, compensation ratios for NY:non-NY partners tends to be higher than for NY:non-NY associates.


This statement is often made by people with absolutely no understanding of art or culture.


are you serious? what city rivals NY arts and culture? And please don't mention anything besides maybe SanFran


Seattle

strawboy1230
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Re: List of real salaries across different legal markets

Postby strawboy1230 » Sun May 15, 2011 8:50 pm

Fark-o-vision wrote:
quakeroats wrote:
G. T. L. Rev. wrote:Just one more reason why NYC biglaw is TTT. Note that the adjusted wealth numbers get even worse when you factor in the reality that NYC associates work appreciably longer hours than everyone else, even within the same firms.


A few of many factors that you might want to consider:

New York has more top restaurants than any city in the world (Paris would be a debatable exception, but it wasn't on the secondary-cities list)
New York has better access to arts and culture than any city listed.
Living in New York gives you greater access to people with power.
If you plan on sticking with law, compensation ratios for NY:non-NY partners tends to be higher than for NY:non-NY associates.


This statement is often made by people with absolutely no understanding of art or culture.


It might be snobbishly written, but it's definitely true. You think COL is higher in NY for no reason? It's definitely the center of culture, arts, finance, etc. for the entire east coast. This is just true. There are very few cities that can compare to NYC. I'm glad that everyone's finally happy that they can finally one-up NYC in some way, but in my opinion NYC is an amazing city to live in as a young professional. The other cities might have lower cost of living...but what the hell are you gonna do there?

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kwais
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Re: List of real salaries across different legal markets

Postby kwais » Sun May 15, 2011 8:52 pm

strawboy1230 wrote:
Fark-o-vision wrote:
quakeroats wrote:
G. T. L. Rev. wrote:Just one more reason why NYC biglaw is TTT. Note that the adjusted wealth numbers get even worse when you factor in the reality that NYC associates work appreciably longer hours than everyone else, even within the same firms.


A few of many factors that you might want to consider:

New York has more top restaurants than any city in the world (Paris would be a debatable exception, but it wasn't on the secondary-cities list)
New York has better access to arts and culture than any city listed.
Living in New York gives you greater access to people with power.
If you plan on sticking with law, compensation ratios for NY:non-NY partners tends to be higher than for NY:non-NY associates.


This statement is often made by people with absolutely no understanding of art or culture.


It might be snobbishly written, but it's definitely true. You think COL is higher in NY for no reason? It's definitely the center of culture, arts, finance, etc. for the entire east coast. This is just true. There are very few cities that can compare to NYC. I'm glad that everyone's finally happy that they can finally one-up NYC in some way, but in my opinion NYC is an amazing city to live in as a young professional. The other cities might have lower cost of living...but what the hell are you gonna do there?


Indeed. ITT, people scramble for ways to justify their city of choice by making up shit about NYC

aliarrow
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Re: List of real salaries across different legal markets

Postby aliarrow » Sun May 15, 2011 8:55 pm

kwais wrote:
Indeed. ITT, people scramble for ways to justify their city of choice by making up shit about NYC


http://www.theonion.com/articles/84-mil ... k-c,18003/

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kwais
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Re: List of real salaries across different legal markets

Postby kwais » Sun May 15, 2011 8:57 pm

aliarrow wrote:
kwais wrote:
Indeed. ITT, people scramble for ways to justify their city of choice by making up shit about NYC


http://www.theonion.com/articles/84-mil ... k-c,18003/


that is pretty funny

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quakeroats
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Re: List of real salaries across different legal markets

Postby quakeroats » Sun May 15, 2011 8:57 pm

Fark-o-vision wrote:
quakeroats wrote:
G. T. L. Rev. wrote:Just one more reason why NYC biglaw is TTT. Note that the adjusted wealth numbers get even worse when you factor in the reality that NYC associates work appreciably longer hours than everyone else, even within the same firms.


A few of many factors that you might want to consider:

New York has more top restaurants than any city in the world (Paris would be a debatable exception, but it wasn't on the secondary-cities list)
New York has better access to arts and culture than any city listed.
Living in New York gives you greater access to people with power.
If you plan on sticking with law, compensation ratios for NY:non-NY partners tends to be higher than for NY:non-NY associates.


This statement is often made by people with absolutely no understanding of art or culture.


Perhaps, but I doubt it. My point was to avoid sounding pretentious, but the artsy stuff I most miss away from the city are:

The Met (opera), the other Met ("art")/MoMA/Guggenheim/the many fine smaller exhibitions, the constant rush of world-class pianists (Pollini/Uchida/Perahia/etc. all make regular stops), guest conductors generally, all the string quartets that are based in NY (in fairness we had an excellent season here in Durham so this isn't as strong).

Fark-o-vision
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Re: List of real salaries across different legal markets

Postby Fark-o-vision » Sun May 15, 2011 9:00 pm

strawboy1230 wrote:
Fark-o-vision wrote:
quakeroats wrote:
G. T. L. Rev. wrote:Just one more reason why NYC biglaw is TTT. Note that the adjusted wealth numbers get even worse when you factor in the reality that NYC associates work appreciably longer hours than everyone else, even within the same firms.


A few of many factors that you might want to consider:

New York has more top restaurants than any city in the world (Paris would be a debatable exception, but it wasn't on the secondary-cities list)
New York has better access to arts and culture than any city listed.
Living in New York gives you greater access to people with power.
If you plan on sticking with law, compensation ratios for NY:non-NY partners tends to be higher than for NY:non-NY associates.


This statement is often made by people with absolutely no understanding of art or culture.


It might be snobbishly written, but it's definitely true. You think COL is higher in NY for no reason? It's definitely the center of culture, arts, finance, etc. for the entire east coast. This is just true. There are very few cities that can compare to NYC. I'm glad that everyone's finally happy that they can finally one-up NYC in some way, but in my opinion NYC is an amazing city to live in as a young professional. The other cities might have lower cost of living...but what the hell are you gonna do there?



Trying to quantify it is the entire problem here and is usually the product of rich know-nothings using money to fill the void where their soul might have been. Look, I'm not against that because I hope to be one of them some day, but it is laughable as a concept that "art" or "culture" is "better" or more available, in some place like NYC simply because that might be where the artists are stacking paper these days. It still only represents a specific subsection.

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kwais
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Re: List of real salaries across different legal markets

Postby kwais » Sun May 15, 2011 9:06 pm

Fark-o-vision wrote:Trying to quantify it is the entire problem here and is usually the product of rich know-nothings using money to fill the void where their soul might have been. Look, I'm not against that because I hope to be one of them some day, but it is laughable as a concept that "art" or "culture" is "better" or more available, in some place like NYC simply because that might be where the artists are stacking paper these days. It still only represents a specific subsection.


So on the topic of art, the "artists" represent a specific (and irrelevant?) subsection?

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rayiner
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Re: List of real salaries across different legal markets

Postby rayiner » Sun May 15, 2011 9:06 pm

delusional wrote:You're right, I didn't mean irrelevant, I meant overstated, because you wouldn't live in similar accommodations, so it's not really apples to apples. DF expressed more or less what I was trying to say, but he did it coherently.


Why does it matter that you wouldn't live in similar accommodations? Yeah when I move to NY I'm not going to live in a 2 bedroom brand new apartment with marble countertops and huge bathrooms in the nicest part of town (for which I paid $1600/mo in Atlanta), but even if I don't the fact that I can't should still count against NYC in the cost of living comparison.

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kwais
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Re: List of real salaries across different legal markets

Postby kwais » Sun May 15, 2011 9:08 pm

rayiner wrote:
delusional wrote:You're right, I didn't mean irrelevant, I meant overstated, because you wouldn't live in similar accommodations, so it's not really apples to apples. DF expressed more or less what I was trying to say, but he did it coherently.


Why does it matter that you wouldn't live in similar accommodations? Yeah when I move to NY I'm not going to live in a 2 bedroom brand new apartment with marble countertops and huge bathrooms in the nicest part of town (for which I paid $1600/mo in Atlanta), but even if I don't the fact that I can't should still count against NYC in the cost of living comparison.


No. The point is that you live a different lifestyle in order to take advantage of everything else. Although, I guess if you count QOL in countertops, you are living it up

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rayiner
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Re: List of real salaries across different legal markets

Postby rayiner » Sun May 15, 2011 9:14 pm

but in my opinion NYC is an amazing city to live in as a young professional.


It's a terrible place to live as a young professional. Things you want as a lawyer working 80 hours a week:

1) A nice apartment. The time you spend sleeping, showering in the morning, and brushing your teeth in the evening is going to be a big chunk of your free time. A dirty old NYC studio isn't conducive to maximizing that time.

2) Nice clean subway, nice clean streets. Getting from your apartment to your office each day is also going to comprise a big chunk of your "me time" during the day.

3) Good restaurants, nearby to your office and your house. Meals are going to make up most of the rest of your "me time" during the day.

New York is great for (3), but sucks for (1) and (2). This matters, b/c as an associate, you're not going to have time to go to lots of plays, etc.

New York seems like a great place to be an aspiring actor or musician, artist, or really anyone else who isn't caught up in the rat race and can take advantage of all the art, culture, and attractive people.

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rayiner
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Re: List of real salaries across different legal markets

Postby rayiner » Sun May 15, 2011 9:14 pm

kwais wrote:
rayiner wrote:
delusional wrote:You're right, I didn't mean irrelevant, I meant overstated, because you wouldn't live in similar accommodations, so it's not really apples to apples. DF expressed more or less what I was trying to say, but he did it coherently.


Why does it matter that you wouldn't live in similar accommodations? Yeah when I move to NY I'm not going to live in a 2 bedroom brand new apartment with marble countertops and huge bathrooms in the nicest part of town (for which I paid $1600/mo in Atlanta), but even if I don't the fact that I can't should still count against NYC in the cost of living comparison.


No. The point is that you live a different lifestyle in order to take advantage of everything else. Although, I guess if you count QOL in countertops, you are living it up


You might live a different lifestyle to take advantage of everything else, but how is that relevant to a cost of living calculation?

strawboy1230
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Re: List of real salaries across different legal markets

Postby strawboy1230 » Sun May 15, 2011 9:17 pm

Fark-o-vision wrote:
Trying to quantify it is the entire problem here and is usually the product of rich know-nothings using money to fill the void where their soul might have been. Look, I'm not against that because I hope to be one of them some day, but it is laughable as a concept that "art" or "culture" is "better" or more available, in some place like NYC simply because that might be where the artists are stacking paper these days. It still only represents a specific subsection.


So hipster bro.

Anonymous User
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Re: List of real salaries across different legal markets

Postby Anonymous User » Sun May 15, 2011 9:18 pm

quakeroats wrote:
G. T. L. Rev. wrote:Just one more reason why NYC biglaw is TTT. Note that the adjusted wealth numbers get even worse when you factor in the reality that NYC associates work appreciably longer hours than everyone else, even within the same firms.


A few of many factors that you might want to consider:

New York has more top restaurants than any city in the world (Paris would be a debatable exception, but it wasn't on the secondary-cities list)
New York has better access to arts and culture than any city listed.
Living in New York gives you greater access to people with power.
If you plan on sticking with law, compensation ratios for NY:non-NY partners tends to be higher than for NY:non-NY associates.


Living with the snobbiest bunch of miserable pricks on Earth...priceless.

(I kid, but)

Posts like these show why these calculators are pretty worthless: they fail to account for one of the most important factors people (especially young lawyers who will have little free time at all) should make when picking a city. That factor is of course people. For example, as much as I love great restaurants, I have to ask myself do I really want to suck up to some self important aspiring actor just to be able to get a reservation? Do I want to spend 1 of the few free hours I have in waiting in a restaurant lobby for a table with people I consider generally deplorable?

Or do I live in Nashville, save a crap ton of money while living a comfortable lifestyle and take a 4 day vacation in Paris (a city with much better restaurants) without worrying about the cost because my rent is less than 1k a month?

Y'all can have Delmonico's and Dali exhibits, I'll take no income tax and a nice hello from my neighbor.

strawboy1230
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Re: List of real salaries across different legal markets

Postby strawboy1230 » Sun May 15, 2011 9:19 pm

rayiner wrote:
but in my opinion NYC is an amazing city to live in as a young professional.


It's a terrible place to live as a young professional. Things you want as a lawyer working 80 hours a week:

1) A nice apartment. The time you spend sleeping, showering in the morning, and brushing your teeth in the evening is going to be a big chunk of your free time. A dirty old NYC studio isn't conducive to maximizing that time.

2) Nice clean subway, nice clean streets. Getting from your apartment to your office each day is also going to comprise a big chunk of your "me time" during the day.

3) Good restaurants, nearby to your office and your house. Meals are going to make up most of the rest of your "me time" during the day.

New York is great for (3), but sucks for (1) and (2). This matters, b/c as an associate, you're not going to have time to go to lots of plays, etc.

New York seems like a great place to be an aspiring actor or musician, artist, or really anyone else who isn't caught up in the rat race and can take advantage of all the art, culture, and attractive people.


Lol you've never been to NYC have you?

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kwais
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Re: List of real salaries across different legal markets

Postby kwais » Sun May 15, 2011 9:19 pm

rayiner wrote:
kwais wrote:
rayiner wrote:
delusional wrote:You're right, I didn't mean irrelevant, I meant overstated, because you wouldn't live in similar accommodations, so it's not really apples to apples. DF expressed more or less what I was trying to say, but he did it coherently.


Why does it matter that you wouldn't live in similar accommodations? Yeah when I move to NY I'm not going to live in a 2 bedroom brand new apartment with marble countertops and huge bathrooms in the nicest part of town (for which I paid $1600/mo in Atlanta), but even if I don't the fact that I can't should still count against NYC in the cost of living comparison.


No. The point is that you live a different lifestyle in order to take advantage of everything else. Although, I guess if you count QOL in countertops, you are living it up


You might live a different lifestyle to take advantage of everything else, but how is that relevant to a cost of living calculation?


2000 gets you sweet countertops in ATL, 2000 gets you studio in NYC, but when you walk outside your door you are in NYC. you live in your apartment and your city. So COL should take into account not just $ but what you get for that.

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BruceWayne
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Re: List of real salaries across different legal markets

Postby BruceWayne » Sun May 15, 2011 9:26 pm

kwais wrote:No. The point is that you live a different lifestyle in order to take advantage of everything else. Although, I guess if you count QOL in countertops, you are living it up


You can't take advantage of everything else that NYC has to offer as a young professional for 2 reasons: 1) NYC jobs work you too hard and too much for you to have time for them and 2) the things that NYC has that "nowhere else in the world has" won't matter to a young professional because he/she won't be able to afford them due to NYC COL. In many of these other cities that have "less" to do (and frankly many many other cities in the U.S have a lot to do--Chicago, Houston, and Atlanta have plenty going on) a biglaw salary will allow you to do everything fun that that city has to offer. You won't be blocked out of enjoying what those cities do have to enjoy because of their lower costs.


kwais wrote:2000 gets you sweet countertops in ATL, 2000 gets you studio in NYC, but when you walk outside your door you are in NYC. you live in your apartment and your city. So COL should take into account not just $ but what you get for that.


I mean I don't know about you, but seeing a whole lot of great stuff that I can't afford doesn't really do it for me. Basically you're paying a premium just to look at what you can't have in NYC. You're paying to window shop. But I do understand that that has a lot of appeal to a lot of people. I personally rather actually have the stuff, or be able to do it.

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kwais
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Re: List of real salaries across different legal markets

Postby kwais » Sun May 15, 2011 9:28 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
kwais wrote:No. The point is that you live a different lifestyle in order to take advantage of everything else. Although, I guess if you count QOL in countertops, you are living it up


You can't take advantage of everything else that NYC has to offer as a young professional for 2 reasons: 1) NYC jobs work you too hard and too much for you to have time for them and 2) the things that NYC has that "nowhere else in the world has" won't matter to a young professional because he/she won't be able to afford them due to NYC COL. In many of these other cities that have "less" to do (and frankly many many other cities in the U.S have a lot to do--Chicago, Houston, and Atlanta have plenty going on) a biglaw salary will allow you to do everything fun that that city has to offer. You won't be blocked out of enjoying what those cities do have to enjoy because of their lower costs.


kwais wrote:2000 gets you sweet countertops in ATL, 2000 gets you studio in NYC, but when you walk outside your door you are in NYC. you live in your apartment and your city. So COL should take into account not just $ but what you get for that.


I mean I don't know about you, but seeing a whole lot of great stuff that I can't afford doesn't really do it for me. Basically you're paying a premium just to look at what you can't have in NYC. You're paying to window shop. But I do understand that that has a lot of appeal to a lot of people. I personally rather actually have the stuff, or be able to do it.


I agree with this to a certain degree, but there is a lot of free or cheap entertainment in NY

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swc65
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Re: List of real salaries across different legal markets

Postby swc65 » Sun May 15, 2011 9:29 pm

you DO NOT have to spend 2K for a studio. That's hogwash. The problem with COL calcs is that they dont let you pick a neighborhood. Living in Times Square is a lot more expensive than living three express stops north. I live in a large 1B for <1500/month. A studio around here could go for 1100 and they're not shitty nor is this an unsafe area.

strawboy1230
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Re: List of real salaries across different legal markets

Postby strawboy1230 » Sun May 15, 2011 9:29 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
quakeroats wrote:
G. T. L. Rev. wrote:Just one more reason why NYC biglaw is TTT. Note that the adjusted wealth numbers get even worse when you factor in the reality that NYC associates work appreciably longer hours than everyone else, even within the same firms.


A few of many factors that you might want to consider:

New York has more top restaurants than any city in the world (Paris would be a debatable exception, but it wasn't on the secondary-cities list)
New York has better access to arts and culture than any city listed.
Living in New York gives you greater access to people with power.
If you plan on sticking with law, compensation ratios for NY:non-NY partners tends to be higher than for NY:non-NY associates.


Living with the snobbiest bunch of miserable pricks on Earth...priceless.

(I kid, but)

Posts like these show why these calculators are pretty worthless: they fail to account for one of the most important factors people (especially young lawyers who will have little free time at all) should make when picking a city. That factor is of course people. For example, as much as I love great restaurants, I have to ask myself do I really want to suck up to some self important aspiring actor just to be able to get a reservation? Do I want to spend 1 of the few free hours I have in waiting in a restaurant lobby for a table with people I consider generally deplorable?

Or do I live in Nashville, save a crap ton of money while living a comfortable lifestyle and take a 4 day vacation in Paris (a city with much better restaurants) without worrying about the cost because my rent is less than 1k a month?

Y'all can have Delmonico's and Dali exhibits, I'll take no income tax and a nice hello from my neighbor.


...Right and as evidenced by this post, people clearly have different preferences. I would hate to live in a place like Nashville. Hate it. And I would expect anyone from Nashville to hate NYC. I have no problem with that. But there's not need to assume that there will be celebrities eating at all the NYC restaurants. That's just stupid. And ignorant.

turbotong
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Re: List of real salaries across different legal markets

Postby turbotong » Sun May 15, 2011 9:33 pm

I live in a Dallas suburb. I know people with 2 story houses who have mortgage payments of $1500 a month + tax + insurance. Comes with garage, front yard, back yard, usually 3bed/2bath + living + kitchen + study + gameroom or so.

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kwais
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Re: List of real salaries across different legal markets

Postby kwais » Sun May 15, 2011 9:34 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
quakeroats wrote:
G. T. L. Rev. wrote:Just one more reason why NYC biglaw is TTT. Note that the adjusted wealth numbers get even worse when you factor in the reality that NYC associates work appreciably longer hours than everyone else, even within the same firms.


A few of many factors that you might want to consider:

New York has more top restaurants than any city in the world (Paris would be a debatable exception, but it wasn't on the secondary-cities list)
New York has better access to arts and culture than any city listed.
Living in New York gives you greater access to people with power.
If you plan on sticking with law, compensation ratios for NY:non-NY partners tends to be higher than for NY:non-NY associates.


Living with the snobbiest bunch of miserable pricks on Earth...priceless.

(I kid, but)

Posts like these show why these calculators are pretty worthless: they fail to account for one of the most important factors people (especially young lawyers who will have little free time at all) should make when picking a city. That factor is of course people. For example, as much as I love great restaurants, I have to ask myself do I really want to suck up to some self important aspiring actor just to be able to get a reservation? Do I want to spend 1 of the few free hours I have in waiting in a restaurant lobby for a table with people I consider generally deplorable?

Or do I live in Nashville, save a crap ton of money while living a comfortable lifestyle and take a 4 day vacation in Paris (a city with much better restaurants) without worrying about the cost because my rent is less than 1k a month?

Y'all can have Delmonico's and Dali exhibits, I'll take no income tax and a nice hello from my neighbor.


The bolded is one of the biggest myths ever. I have lived in the south for 7 years and the northeast for more than that. Lol at people being nicer in one place or the next. That's like me saying that the northeast is full of educated cosmopolitan people and the south is nothing but a bunch of xenophobic racist. Common thought, not much truth

Renzo
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Re: List of real salaries across different legal markets

Postby Renzo » Sun May 15, 2011 9:35 pm

turbotong wrote:I live in a Dallas suburb. I know people with 2 story houses who have mortgage payments of $1500 a month + tax + insurance. Comes with garage, front yard, back yard, usually 3bed/2bath + living + kitchen + study + gameroom or so.


I'm sorry.




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