What are the top 5 tips you would give an incoming SA? Forum

[shbe0701]

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[keg411]

The level at which others are preparing for their SA is a little disconcerting. I was sort of planning on showing up, not acting like a moron / weirdo, using common sense, and calling it a summer. Then again, maybe some on here are going to firms that don't typically do high offer rates. In that case, the behavior seems completely rational.

I don't think that many people are doing formal prep (how would you even do that??? ). I went to a Lexis thing for an hour at school like a month ago because I wanted to get better at research and so I have some tips for not cost my firm $$$$, but other than that, I'm pretty much doing the same stuff that you are. Well, that and clothes shopping, but that's more fun then anything else .

[thesealocust]

Best prep for SA position: Only take corporate assignments so you never have to log onto lexis or westlaw.

[Renzo]

Anyone have any suggestions on legal writing guides? I took a bunch of exam courses 2L and so the memo/brief writing exercises we did 1L seem like ages ago. Although not legal in nature, Elements of Style is definitely on my radar. Same with Academic Legal Writing by Volokh (although I am wondering if this is more useful for comments/seminar papers, rather than memo/brief writing).

EDIT: Nvm, after failing to find anything through a forum search, I did a quick Google search that turned up a bunch of threads with suggestions. Seems like these have been the ones that have been recommended over and over:

Elements of Style, Strunk and white
Elements of Legal Style, Garner
Legal Writing in Plain English, Garner
Academic Legal Writing, Volokh

Am I missing anything that is an absolute must read?

I have read all. I would scratch Strunk and White and Academic Legal Writing off the list. Elements of Legal Style is good, and so is Legal Writing in Plain English. I would start with Garner's Elements, because it's just a short collection of tips, so you'll be able to thumb through it pretty quickly. I would also highly recommend Garner and Scalia's Making Your Case if you are litigation inclined. It's a bit too focused on appellate litigation, but none the less the best book on brief writing I've come across yet.

[monkey85]

Tip 1. Read this: http://www.constitutionaldaily.com/inde ... &Itemid=65
Tip 2 - 5: read the above again

IF all SAs in the same class read that, it should be the most respectful and enjoyable SA summer evah.

The "things people did to get no-offered" at the end of the thread is hilarious and, unfortunately, real.

[swc65]

Tip 1. Read this: http://www.constitutionaldaily.com/inde ... &Itemid=65
Tip 2 - 5: read the above again

IF all SAs in the same class read that, it should be the most respectful and enjoyable SA summer evah.

The "things people did to get no-offered" at the end of the thread is hilarious and, unfortunately, real.

Great Read. Also, under career limiting moves:

"AA. Summer associate organizes summer associate outing to strip club and bills firm.
GG. Summer associate uses lunch budget for personal grooming, including a manicure/pedicure.
II. Summer associate is participating on a conference call with a partner. At 6:45 p.m., summer associate points to their watch, whispers "I have concert tickets," and leaves the room"

hahahahaha

[lynch]

If some one tells you that your work is wrong just accept it try other options to make it right.

[HETPE3B]

M. Wishing to play on the firm's ice hockey team, summer associate loudly and persistently discusses their skill as a high school hockey player and claims that he would easily be the best player on the ice. The senior associate who organizes the team is a former NHL player.
BB. Summer associate plucks flowers from flowerpot in firm's lobby.

And these are claimed to be real world examples.

[Anonymous User]

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[DoubleChecks]

Tip 1. Read this: http://www.constitutionaldaily.com/inde ... &Itemid=65
Tip 2 - 5: read the above again

IF all SAs in the same class read that, it should be the most respectful and enjoyable SA summer evah.

The "things people did to get no-offered" at the end of the thread is hilarious and, unfortunately, real.

Was a pretty good read and helpful. One thing that stuck out in my skim though:

"A. Hours. In general, between 8:00 a.m. and 8:00 p.m. each business day, you should consider yourself "on-call." Check with your supervising attorney before scheduling any daytime appointment or errand, and, if you must leave, always be reachable by phone and by email if you have been given a Blackberry. Inform your secretary of your whereabouts if you leave your office so that you can be located easily. Expect to work 7 to 10 hours of true billable time per day, Monday through Friday. Be prepared to work on weekends as needed."

^man you poor NYC SAs hahaha

[erico]

X. Summer associate falls asleep at negotiation session in conference room.

Define falling asleep...what if it's just eyelids getting a little heavy. After-lunch meetings can be tough. That's nap time.

[wiseowl]

HH. Summer associate extends disingenuous lunch invite to attorney in order to dine at an expensive restaurant.

LOL. Most SAs will violate this one at least ten times.

[shoeshine]

HH. Summer associate extends disingenuous lunch invite to attorney in order to dine at an expensive restaurant.

LOL. Most SAs will violate this one at least ten times.

How do you go about inviting people to lunch and avoid doing this?

I went to a couple CDO/CSO events hosted by V20s and the partners and associates all said that it was crucial that you use your lunches to get to know the partners and associates at your summer firm.

How does one invite someone to lunch everyday but avoid paying for 5 expensive lunches a week? Do I just offer to pay and see what happens? Should I just pay no matter what? What if the partner wants to go to a really expensive place (this has already happened to me)?

[Ludo!]

HH. Summer associate extends disingenuous lunch invite to attorney in order to dine at an expensive restaurant.

LOL. Most SAs will violate this one at least ten times.

How do you go about inviting people to lunch and avoid doing this?

I went to a couple CDO/CSO events hosted by V20s and the partners and associates all said that it was crucial that you use your lunches to get to know the partners and associates at your summer firm.

How does one invite someone to lunch everyday but avoid paying for 5 expensive lunches a week? Do I just offer to pay and see what happens? Should I just pay no matter what? What if the partner wants to go to a really expensive place (this has already happened to me)?

I want to know how they knew it was 'disingenuous'. He must've literally told someone that he just went to the lunch for the expensive meal

[Anonymous User]

HH. Summer associate extends disingenuous lunch invite to attorney in order to dine at an expensive restaurant.

LOL. Most SAs will violate this one at least ten times.

I'm curious about this to. I figure that, when I invite attorneys to lunch, I will ask for their suggestions, since I'm not familiar with the area, and that they would pick a place appropriate for a meal with a summer. I wouldn't go just to be able to expense a meal, but would only invite folks I'm interesting in speaking with, learning more from, etc., but it would seem really weird to invite someone and then suggest that we go someplace cheap.

[HETPE3B]

HH. Summer associate extends disingenuous lunch invite to attorney in order to dine at an expensive restaurant.

LOL. Most SAs will violate this one at least ten times.

I'm curious about this to. I figure that, when I invite attorneys to lunch, I will ask for their suggestions, since I'm not familiar with the area, and that they would pick a place appropriate for a meal with a summer. I wouldn't go just to be able to expense a meal, but would only invite folks I'm interesting in speaking with, learning more from, etc., but it would seem really weird to invite someone and then suggest that we go someplace cheap.

You invite them to the Blimpie downstairs, knowing they will respond, "Kid, I hope you like DelFrisco's."

[thesealocust]

Big firms have very institutionalized programs... which have been discussed at length ITT. Don't worry about it. Even at firms with smallish summer classes you'll be told precisely what the policy is.

[dingbat]

People will notice if you're a girl and not drinking.

(people assume you're pregnant)

What if you are

Probably want to make sure you deliver on the weekend so that you can be back billing on Monday.

I know someone who was back to billing clients less than a week after giving birth

[theduder]

tag

[holdencaulfield]

HH. Summer associate extends disingenuous lunch invite to attorney in order to dine at an expensive restaurant.

LOL. Most SAs will violate this one at least ten times.

How do you go about inviting people to lunch and avoid doing this?

I went to a couple CDO/CSO events hosted by V20s and the partners and associates all said that it was crucial that you use your lunches to get to know the partners and associates at your summer firm.

How does one invite someone to lunch everyday but avoid paying for 5 expensive lunches a week? Do I just offer to pay and see what happens? Should I just pay no matter what? What if the partner wants to go to a really expensive place (this has already happened to me)?

Of the near 100 lunches I've gone to with partners (as both a summer and a first year associate), I've never succeeded in picking up a tab when with a partner of my current firm. Feel free to offer, but I'd be shocked if one ever accepted.

I have taken a couple partners to lunch from firms I summered with, but only since I've been licensed.

[swc65]

HH. Summer associate extends disingenuous lunch invite to attorney in order to dine at an expensive restaurant.

LOL. Most SAs will violate this one at least ten times.

How do you go about inviting people to lunch and avoid doing this?

I went to a couple CDO/CSO events hosted by V20s and the partners and associates all said that it was crucial that you use your lunches to get to know the partners and associates at your summer firm.

How does one invite someone to lunch everyday but avoid paying for 5 expensive lunches a week? Do I just offer to pay and see what happens? Should I just pay no matter what? What if the partner wants to go to a really expensive place (this has already happened to me)?

Of the near 100 lunches I've gone to with partners (as both a summer and a first year associate), I've never succeeded in picking up a tab when with a partner of my current firm. Feel free to offer, but I'd be shocked if one ever accepted.

I have taken a couple partners to lunch from firms I summered with, but only since I've been licensed.

I had an SA last year and it was explicitly explained that we were not to pay for lunch; that's what the lunch budget is for! Usually the attys put it on the firm's credit card (or their own card so they can get the points!!) and then turn in a reimbursement form.

As for how to ask, most of the time people were asking us- the associates got to bill the time for firm development which counted toward their required hours and they got a free lunch.

Whenever I had a day without a lunch, I would, literally, roam the halls and see who was free. It sounds crazy, but it totally worked. Even if people weren't free, I was able to spend a few minutes getting to know them and what they do. Often the people who were not free would try to schedule a lunch with on me some other day or they would email me a few days later asking if I was free.


The lunches were the best part of the summer experience. Never mind the good food, but it was the most helpful in learning about the mechanical tasks the attorneys perform everyday, their experience at the firm- the real experience not the glossy materials stuff, and about their friends' career paths who had left the firm or worked at other firms. I honestly, learned more at lunches than all of the career events hosted at my school. You also get a ton in advice on the specific do's and don'ts of that firm as well as what to expect from the different partners.


The only hard part is when you have many people asking to go to lunch with you at the same time. There were limits on the total group size and associate to summer ratios to keep things intimate and informal.


Drinks after work that aren't on the firm's tab are a different story. You should always try to pay for you own and sometimes offer to pay for others. The attys will probably reject your money. Don't be pushy about paying either some people get offended and others just like to take summers out. Also, going out to drinks "expecting" other people to pay is bad bad form unless it is a firm event or a partner has already said s/he would pay.

[Anonymous User]

I really like the fact that the majority of this thread has been spent discussing golf etiquette, appropriate levels of alcohol consumption, appropriate use of the extravagant attorney lunch programs, and appropriate social behavior whereas only about 10% of the thread is devoted to the actual work aspect of the summer experience.

Does that mean what I hope it means?

[Anonymous User]

I really like the fact that the majority of this thread has been spent discussing golf etiquette, appropriate levels of alcohol consumption, appropriate use of the extravagant attorney lunch programs, and appropriate social behavior whereas only about 10% of the thread is devoted to the actual work aspect of the summer experience.

Does that mean what I hope it means?

I hope so and from everyone I talk to, it sounds like it. Part of me thinks that 3L's are bluffing, but these are the same 3L's who said 1L was very difficult. 1L was very difficult. So if they say that 2L SA is cake for the most part, I'm going to believe them.

[swc65]

I really like the fact that the majority of this thread has been spent discussing golf etiquette, appropriate levels of alcohol consumption, appropriate use of the extravagant attorney lunch programs, and appropriate social behavior whereas only about 10% of the thread is devoted to the actual work aspect of the summer experience.

Does that mean what I hope it means?

I hope so and from everyone I talk to, it sounds like it. Part of me thinks that 3L's are bluffing, but these are the same 3L's who said 1L was very difficult. 1L was very difficult. So if they say that 2L SA is cake for the most part, I'm going to believe them.

I don't think this is accurate, at least not at every firm. 1L you just have to do the work. During an SA you have to do the work and navigate firm politics/prove you're not a total jerk.

The work might seem easier because you will probably have a lot of hand-holding. You will likely have many people to whom you can turn for advice/ask questions/get feed back etc. Being an SA is not a one person endeavor like law school. You will probably have a lot of support that you did not have in 1L. You are, however, going to have to know how to utilize all of these resources.

But, you still need to perform! That is sort of a given.

I think the attention tends to focus on nonperformance topics because it is assumed that you can do the work. If you can't, it won't matter how good you are at the other stuff.

[Vronsky]

Any sane biglaw partner/firm will understand and support that people have religious or other beliefs that may conflict with some aspect of work (vegans, Sabbath-observers, Hijab-wearers, religious holidays, recovering-alcoholics, etc).

I'm feeling a little self-concious about my SA coming up as a non-drinking, vegan, sabbath-observing, hijab-wearing (multicultural), religious holiday taking, recovering alcoholic. I'm a hippie, josh hamilton, jewish/muslim/mormon all mixed into one non-alcoholic cocktail.

Any SA book recommendations? Was planning on reading 50 shades of gray for water-cooler talk with the secretaries and paralegals.