How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

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Torvon
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby Torvon » Thu Feb 13, 2014 5:27 pm

Quick question for you prosecution gurus.

I am currently clerking. My clerkship ends in August. If an opening at a USAO is posted with a late February / early March application deadline but no start date or estimated start date is given, is it too early for me to be applying to the position? Is it even possible they would hold the spot for me until August?

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sd5289
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby sd5289 » Thu Feb 13, 2014 5:34 pm

Torvon wrote:Quick question for you prosecution gurus.

I am currently clerking. My clerkship ends in August. If an opening at a USAO is posted with a late February / early March application deadline but no start date or estimated start date is given, is it too early for me to be applying to the position? Is it even possible they would hold the spot for me until August?


It would take at least that long, if not longer, to get through the background investigation for a permanent position at USAO. So I wouldn't worry about that. I'd be more concerned about how to support yourself after clerkship is over and before start date (and that is, of course, banking on USAO, which is very hard to get).

Torvon
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby Torvon » Thu Feb 13, 2014 5:46 pm

sd5289 wrote:
Torvon wrote:Quick question for you prosecution gurus.

I am currently clerking. My clerkship ends in August. If an opening at a USAO is posted with a late February / early March application deadline but no start date or estimated start date is given, is it too early for me to be applying to the position? Is it even possible they would hold the spot for me until August?


It would take at least that long, if not longer, to get through the background investigation for a permanent position at USAO. So I wouldn't worry about that. I'd be more concerned about how to support yourself after clerkship is over and before start date (and that is, of course, banking on USAO, which is very hard to get).


Ah yes, the infamous background check. Thanks!

This is my "I would love to work there and I already have a job lined up so why not try" opening. I realize the odds are not in my favor.

Anonymous User
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Feb 13, 2014 11:10 pm

BlueLotus wrote:anyone know the entry-level salary for CPCS? Interested in the CAFL.


Starting salary for CPCS is $40,000.

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BlueLotus
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby BlueLotus » Thu Feb 13, 2014 11:17 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
BlueLotus wrote:anyone know the entry-level salary for CPCS? Interested in the CAFL.


Starting salary for CPCS is $40,000.


thanks! i am surprised, that is higher than the DA!

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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Feb 13, 2014 11:29 pm

gdane wrote:On that note, I could never be a defense lawyer. I also worked in a narcotics department at a prosecutors office and although there may not be one specific victim you can point at, i looked at the big picture. These drug dealers are bringing in drugs that the local population gets hooked on. The homeless,kids, anyone. It's a plague. So in essence the victim in drug cases is often everyone. Drugs also bring weapons and violence, and gang activity. Gangs terrorize neighborhoods. It's all a vicious cycle that began with drugs. That's how I looked at it.


Yeah, once we get those drug dealers then the cycle will be broken. And then we can go back to our Norman Rockwell painting :P

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BlueLotus
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby BlueLotus » Thu Feb 13, 2014 11:50 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
gdane wrote:On that note, I could never be a defense lawyer. I also worked in a narcotics department at a prosecutors office and although there may not be one specific victim you can point at, i looked at the big picture. These drug dealers are bringing in drugs that the local population gets hooked on. The homeless,kids, anyone. It's a plague. So in essence the victim in drug cases is often everyone. Drugs also bring weapons and violence, and gang activity. Gangs terrorize neighborhoods. It's all a vicious cycle that began with drugs. That's how I looked at it.


Yeah, once we get those drug dealers then the cycle will be broken. And then we can go back to our Norman Rockwell painting :P


i agree that was a bit shortsighted of gdane, but wrong use of anon, bro

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gdane
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby gdane » Fri Feb 14, 2014 12:04 am

It's just one justification ;)

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sd5289
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby sd5289 » Fri Feb 14, 2014 1:27 am

Torvon wrote:
sd5289 wrote:
Torvon wrote:Quick question for you prosecution gurus.

I am currently clerking. My clerkship ends in August. If an opening at a USAO is posted with a late February / early March application deadline but no start date or estimated start date is given, is it too early for me to be applying to the position? Is it even possible they would hold the spot for me until August?


It would take at least that long, if not longer, to get through the background investigation for a permanent position at USAO. So I wouldn't worry about that. I'd be more concerned about how to support yourself after clerkship is over and before start date (and that is, of course, banking on USAO, which is very hard to get).


Ah yes, the infamous background check. Thanks!

This is my "I would love to work there and I already have a job lined up so why not try" opening. I realize the odds are not in my favor.



Lol, no worries.

I went through it to be an investigative special agent before I went to law school. It's extensive (for good reason), and if you're older (as I am now) it takes longer. So my plan/hope is to kick it with a local DA for a while, put my app into USAO, and just wait it out. That, of course, assumes I get a local DA here in NYC. One step at a time! Though I think they expect you to have the "yeah, I'm working this now cause y'all take so long" angle. :)

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sd5289
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby sd5289 » Fri Feb 14, 2014 1:32 am

BlueLotus wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
gdane wrote:On that note, I could never be a defense lawyer. I also worked in a narcotics department at a prosecutors office and although there may not be one specific victim you can point at, i looked at the big picture. These drug dealers are bringing in drugs that the local population gets hooked on. The homeless,kids, anyone. It's a plague. So in essence the victim in drug cases is often everyone. Drugs also bring weapons and violence, and gang activity. Gangs terrorize neighborhoods. It's all a vicious cycle that began with drugs. That's how I looked at it.


Yeah, once we get those drug dealers then the cycle will be broken. And then we can go back to our Norman Rockwell painting :P


i agree that was a bit shortsighted of gdane, but wrong use of anon, bro


Agreed (on the anon front there).

I'd simply argue this: guess what, those people make their own independent choice to take and/or get hooked on whatever they want. If you want to argue that narcotics trade leads to violent drug wars south of the border, that's one thing, but don't feel sorry for the people that get hooked onto something they had the choice to take/ingest/inject/whatever. No demand = no market. Those "drug dealers" make their profit off the peeps who buy (obvi). I'm not excusing the dealers, especially the ones dealing around schools and to kids, but for adults? I feel like they're just supplying a market for the most part.

P.S. The gangs you're worried about? Would be there with or without the drugs. The projects were full of them before, during, and after the crack epidemic. It's about controlling territory and being "tuff," not about profit. If they actually cared about the latter, they'd get something better than a Saturday night special to secure their investments.

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gdane
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby gdane » Fri Feb 14, 2014 2:51 am

I'm not the arguing type so I'm not gonna pull up statistics or whatever. But at the end of the day, I'd personally rather help keep my community safe than defend criminals. Defense attorneys are necessary though. I have seen some cases where there is iffy evidence at best and the case ends up getting dropped.

eaternation
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby eaternation » Fri Feb 14, 2014 3:44 am

I had a question for the more experienced, PD-oriented TLSers...

I am a 1L. I know I want PI for sure. I am pretty sure I want PD long term. However I'm also interested by immigration and legal aid work.

Would spending my 1L summer doing legal aid (housing & benefits) or an immigration related PI org hurt me at all? The immigration related org handles a variety of immigration related matters including U-Visa/VAWA work. I've heard extensive DV/U-Visa work can be frowned upon slightly or did I misunderstand? I have an offer at a PD office and am waiting on the CA appellate project. However, I am considering doing something non-crim related 1L summer if it would not negatively affect my PD chances going forward.

I started interning at the local PD this semester and plan on doing my 2L summer at a PD office. I interned at two legal aid orgs prior to law school.

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MONSTERSQUAD
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby MONSTERSQUAD » Fri Feb 14, 2014 8:59 am

sd5289 wrote:P.S. The gangs you're worried about? Would be there with or without the drugs. The projects were full of them before, during, and after the crack epidemic. It's about controlling territory and being "tuff," not about profit. If they actually cared about the latter, they'd get something better than a Saturday night special to secure their investments.

Oh good, an expert on urban street gang psychology. You should at least have included whatever personal experience anecdotes cause you to make this ridiculous and unsupported generalization.

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MONSTERSQUAD
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby MONSTERSQUAD » Fri Feb 14, 2014 9:02 am

gdane wrote:But at the end of the day, I'd personally rather help keep my community safe than defend criminals.

Your mistaking is in thinking that these things are exclusive.

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spleenworship
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby spleenworship » Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:18 am

eaternation wrote:I had a question for the more experienced, PD-oriented TLSers...

I am a 1L. I know I want PI for sure. I am pretty sure I want PD long term. However I'm also interested by immigration and legal aid work.

Would spending my 1L summer doing legal aid (housing & benefits) or an immigration related PI org hurt me at all? The immigration related org handles a variety of immigration related matters including U-Visa/VAWA work. I've heard extensive DV/U-Visa work can be frowned upon slightly or did I misunderstand? I have an offer at a PD office and am waiting on the CA appellate project. However, I am considering doing something non-crim related 1L summer if it would not negatively affect my PD chances going forward.

I started interning at the local PD this semester and plan on doing my 2L summer at a PD office. I interned at two legal aid orgs prior to law school.


I don't think this would be a problem at all. It's primarily immigration, not DV right? If so... PDs need more people with immigration experience.

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spleenworship
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby spleenworship » Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:18 am

MONSTERSQUAD wrote:
gdane wrote:But at the end of the day, I'd personally rather help keep my community safe than defend criminals.

Your mistaking is in thinking that these things are exclusive.

eaternation
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby eaternation » Fri Feb 14, 2014 3:32 pm

spleenworship wrote:
eaternation wrote:I had a question for the more experienced, PD-oriented TLSers...

I am a 1L. I know I want PI for sure. I am pretty sure I want PD long term. However I'm also interested by immigration and legal aid work.

Would spending my 1L summer doing legal aid (housing & benefits) or an immigration related PI org hurt me at all? The immigration related org handles a variety of immigration related matters including U-Visa/VAWA work. I've heard extensive DV/U-Visa work can be frowned upon slightly or did I misunderstand? I have an offer at a PD office and am waiting on the CA appellate project. However, I am considering doing something non-crim related 1L summer if it would not negatively affect my PD chances going forward.

I started interning at the local PD this semester and plan on doing my 2L summer at a PD office. I interned at two legal aid orgs prior to law school.


I don't think this would be a problem at all. It's primarily immigration, not DV right? If so... PDs need more people with immigration experience.


Thanks for the reply. It's an immigration org. One of the areas it helps out with is U-Visas/VAWA work. I'm more interested in direct representation during removal proceedings but I would likely work on a variety of cases.

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FlanAl
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby FlanAl » Fri Feb 14, 2014 6:10 pm

If you school lets you do a full-time semester internship, I'd save doing civil stuff for that. I doubt the immigration stuff will hurt you but being able to go into a PD interview with a resume that screams that its what you want to do is helpful. In California most of the PD office are trial heavy and not into the whole holistic thing and they may question whether or not you want to be a PD or really want to be an immigration lawyer. The other thought I had was that even in the holistic offices (I interned in an NYC one) the immigration attorneys only do immigration. You don't interview to work at say Bronx defenders as like a general PI practitioner, you interview to either be an immigration or criminal defense attorney there. (Or whatever else it is they help people with

BUT if you're not sure what type of PI you want to do, having the immigration cred would be extremely beneficial. Immigration attorneys are pretty in demand and the work is complicated enough that your average solo family law guy can't fill the employment void. Its an arena where new lawyers could probably really clean up.

I could continue my non-sensical rant but in the end I'd doubt it makes a real difference what you do 1L as long as you do your 2L summer at a PD.

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sd5289
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby sd5289 » Fri Feb 14, 2014 7:29 pm

MONSTERSQUAD wrote:
sd5289 wrote:P.S. The gangs you're worried about? Would be there with or without the drugs. The projects were full of them before, during, and after the crack epidemic. It's about controlling territory and being "tuff," not about profit. If they actually cared about the latter, they'd get something better than a Saturday night special to secure their investments.

Oh good, an expert on urban street gang psychology. You should at least have included whatever personal experience anecdotes cause you to make this ridiculous and unsupported generalization.


Ah yes, an expert in hyperbolic responses. No forum is complete without at least one of those.

Personal anecdotes are just that, personal. So I won't bring up the fact that I'm from the city, nor will I rely on the fact that one of my parents was a patrol officer and detective both during and after the epidemic or that I've also worked in agencies directly related.

I'm not terribly interested in getting into an online kerfluffle. Historically speaking, New York has a well-documented history of street gangs in the 19th century, which was obviously well before the crack epidemic (think the Bowery Boys). There's no disputing the level of street crime and street gangs during the crack epidemic. A cursory Google search reveals numerous stories about "modern day" street gangs still alive and kicking, such as here, and here, as well as increasing anti-gang efforts by law enforcement.

I may have been flippant in my characterization, but that was a wee bit of an overreaction.

eaternation
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby eaternation » Fri Feb 14, 2014 7:47 pm

FlanAl wrote:If you school lets you do a full-time semester internship, I'd save doing civil stuff for that. I doubt the immigration stuff will hurt you but being able to go into a PD interview with a resume that screams that its what you want to do is helpful. In California most of the PD office are trial heavy and not into the whole holistic thing and they may question whether or not you want to be a PD or really want to be an immigration lawyer. The other thought I had was that even in the holistic offices (I interned in an NYC one) the immigration attorneys only do immigration. You don't interview to work at say Bronx defenders as like a general PI practitioner, you interview to either be an immigration or criminal defense attorney there. (Or whatever else it is they help people with

BUT if you're not sure what type of PI you want to do, having the immigration cred would be extremely beneficial. Immigration attorneys are pretty in demand and the work is complicated enough that your average solo family law guy can't fill the employment void. Its an arena where new lawyers could probably really clean up.

I could continue my non-sensical rant but in the end I'd doubt it makes a real difference what you do 1L as long as you do your 2L summer at a PD.


Thanks. I appreciate the insight. I am pretty sure I want to do PD long term but I'm scared that if I change my mind or the market is horrible, doing PD both summers and interning during the year at the local pd (currently interning at the local pd office second semester of 1L) will hurt my chances anywhere else I apply. My resume would scream crim law

brassmonkey7
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby brassmonkey7 » Fri Feb 14, 2014 11:52 pm

spleenworship wrote:
MONSTERSQUAD wrote:
gdane wrote:But at the end of the day, I'd personally rather help keep my community safe than defend criminals.

Your mistaking is in thinking that these things are exclusive.


FWIW, When it comes to imm work you're trying to sell to PD Offices, generally:

Working on removal proceedings = good

VAWA/U-Visa = possibly bad

As you said, anything that makes it look like you support crime victims could be construed against you. . It's the same deal where doing civil PI could be nice until you go get that civil protective order for a battered woman. Also PD Offices will appreciate that you can wrap your mind around the removal proceedings their clients could be exposed to and that you may have some understanding of how to protect clients from deportation but helping clients apply for U Visas probably won't teach you much about crimmigration.

eaternation
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby eaternation » Sat Feb 15, 2014 1:16 am

Anonymous User wrote:
spleenworship wrote:
MONSTERSQUAD wrote:
gdane wrote:But at the end of the day, I'd personally rather help keep my community safe than defend criminals.

Your mistaking is in thinking that these things are exclusive.


FWIW, When it comes to imm work you're trying to sell to PD Offices, generally:

Working on removal proceedings = good

VAWA/U-Visa = possibly bad

As you said, anything that makes it look like you support crime victims could be construed against you. . It's the same deal where doing civil PI could be nice until you go get that civil protective order for a battered woman. Also PD Offices will appreciate that you can wrap your mind around the removal proceedings their clients could be exposed to and that you may have some understanding of how to protect clients from deportation but helping clients apply for U Visas probably won't teach you much about crimmigration.


You confirmed what I was thinking. From my understanding, it's a little harder to find orgs working on removal proceedings in comparison to VAWA/U-Visa. Is that because of stipulations attached to federal grants/aid that goes to many legal aid/PI organizations?Thanks for all the insight.
Last edited by eaternation on Tue Feb 18, 2014 12:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

Anonymous User
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Feb 16, 2014 1:09 pm

brassmonkey7 wrote:
spleenworship wrote:
MONSTERSQUAD wrote:
gdane wrote:But at the end of the day, I'd personally rather help keep my community safe than defend criminals.

Your mistaking is in thinking that these things are exclusive.


FWIW, When it comes to imm work you're trying to sell to PD Offices, generally:

Working on removal proceedings = good

VAWA/U-Visa = possibly bad

As you said, anything that makes it look like you support crime victims could be construed against you. . It's the same deal where doing civil PI could be nice until you go get that civil protective order for a battered woman. Also PD Offices will appreciate that you can wrap your mind around the removal proceedings their clients could be exposed to and that you may have some understanding of how to protect clients from deportation but helping clients apply for U Visas probably won't teach you much about crimmigration.


It will if your U visa clients were charged with crimes themselves that may affect their admissibility (wrote a memo on just that topic last summer).

But yeah, the above advice is solid. Sadly for some of the "true believer" officers, helping indigent victims is seen as objectionable. :| Does that same bias apply to civil divisions of PD offices?

Anonymous User
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Feb 18, 2014 8:20 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
brassmonkey7 wrote:
FWIW, When it comes to imm work you're trying to sell to PD Offices, generally:

Working on removal proceedings = good

VAWA/U-Visa = possibly bad

As you said, anything that makes it look like you support crime victims could be construed against you. . It's the same deal where doing civil PI could be nice until you go get that civil protective order for a battered woman. Also PD Offices will appreciate that you can wrap your mind around the removal proceedings their clients could be exposed to and that you may have some understanding of how to protect clients from deportation but helping clients apply for U Visas probably won't teach you much about crimmigration.


It will if your U visa clients were charged with crimes themselves that may affect their admissibility (wrote a memo on just that topic last summer).

But yeah, the above advice is solid. Sadly for some of the "true believer" officers, helping indigent victims is seen as objectionable. :| Does that same bias apply to civil divisions of PD offices?


I've worked in true believer PD offices with immigration units and I've worked in straight up removal defense orgs and I still can't imagine anyone ever holding VAWA/U visa work against a job applicant. If you worked at a DV victim organization that work would generally be a red flag for true believer employers, but not the specific VAWA/U visa work you may do in that org. If you're a PD and your undocumented client takes a plea to a removable offense in exchange for helping the cops, you damn well better be advising him/her to file for a U visa.

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logicspeaks
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby logicspeaks » Wed Feb 19, 2014 12:08 am

0L here with a quick question. How useful would an internship with U.S. Pretrial Services be for a PD gunner? I'm choosing between that and a (very basic) judicial internship with my local trial court.




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