How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

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Tanicius
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby Tanicius » Wed Sep 11, 2013 12:39 am

lmr wrote:
kapital98 wrote:
adonai wrote:I always found it interesting that some PD offices allow certified law students argue in court...I'd imagine there would be a crap load of IAC claims later down the line, frivolous or not.


I'm surprised people want to intern more than 1-2 semesters at a PD's office. By that time you should have networked pretty well. You won't have much to gain by continuing to work there.

Regarding the IAC claims, yes but that's pretty much the default argument for every criminal appeal. I externed for an appellate justice and most criminal appeals were either centered on IAC or added it in at the end. By the end of the externship I wanted to do an eye roll every time I saw this argued.


Won't gain much? So doing nearly 50 preliminary hearings and arguing a bunch of motions, interviewing a variety of clients and getting a chance at doing real life trials all before you actually even take the bar isn't gaining much?! Internships aren't just about networking but actually acquiring real life experience. As for IAC claims most of the valid ones stem from private attorney conduct, not public.


It would surprise me quite a bit if there were more IAC claims against private attorneys than public defenders. Not because public defenders are worse -- far towards the opposite, really -- but because most cases are handled by public defenders, and because IAC claims are, as others have already said, pretty much automatic for any criminal appeal.

Proportions of successful IAC claims are another matter.

lmr
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby lmr » Wed Sep 11, 2013 1:38 am

Tanicius wrote:
lmr wrote:
kapital98 wrote:
adonai wrote:I always found it interesting that some PD offices allow certified law students argue in court...I'd imagine there would be a crap load of IAC claims later down the line, frivolous or not.


I'm surprised people want to intern more than 1-2 semesters at a PD's office. By that time you should have networked pretty well. You won't have much to gain by continuing to work there.

Regarding the IAC claims, yes but that's pretty much the default argument for every criminal appeal. I externed for an appellate justice and most criminal appeals were either centered on IAC or added it in at the end. By the end of the externship I wanted to do an eye roll every time I saw this argued.


Won't gain much? So doing nearly 50 preliminary hearings and arguing a bunch of motions, interviewing a variety of clients and getting a chance at doing real life trials all before you actually even take the bar isn't gaining much?! Internships aren't just about networking but actually acquiring real life experience. As for IAC claims most of the valid ones stem from private attorney conduct, not public.


It would surprise me quite a bit if there were more IAC claims against private attorneys than public defenders. Not because public defenders are worse -- far towards the opposite, really -- but because most cases are handled by public defenders, and because IAC claims are, as others have already said, pretty much automatic for any criminal appeal.

Proportions of successful IAC claims are another matter.


yes, as I stated above, valid IAC claims. PDs have more training, experience and exposure than most private attorneys-they get their clients better deals in less time bc of their familiarity w the court and DAs. lots of these private attorneys are winging it and have no clue what the hell they are doing-they operate as a solo or in a small firm doing shit law level work and most don't answer.

As for IAC claims against interns-that's unlikely. they are under the supervision of an attorney, client signs sheet agreeing. interns aren't doing murders, rapes, child molest cases; we mostly do grand theft, drugs, and crap like that (most of what actually comes through the courts). It's incredibly difficult for a pd to fk up a prelim, as clients get bound over 99% of the time. Arraignments are also impossible to fk up as are change of pleas. Motion arguing depends-most of the time the attorney tells the intern what motion to write and argue so IAC claim is inapplicable. With trials, interns are allowed to do some misdos completely (public drunkness) or in part (dui) and if they get to do a felony trial, they'll be allowed to do an opening statement and cross examine a minor witness, again very difficult to fk up esp under the supervision of an attorney.

I had an interviewer as me if I had done a trial yet, despite all the other crap I had on my resume-I had to go on the offensive and tell her all the stuff I had done and planned to do... i was thinking your office doesn't even let post-bars do trials, why are you grilling me on lack of trial?

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Borhas
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby Borhas » Wed Sep 11, 2013 2:00 am

AreJay711 wrote:I just nailed down an internship at a PD's office for the time between the bar and when my clerkship starts. Its definitely the most excited I've been to work for free in my life.


Congrats bro, that's great

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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 11, 2013 11:13 am

Why does the EJW email say that there are 1000 jobs but I only see 100?

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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 11, 2013 12:36 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Why does the EJW email say that there are 1000 jobs but I only see 100?


I'm guessing they mean that collectively the employers are looking to hire as many as 1000 people. Though I doubt they will draw exclusively from EJW, I've already interviewed with two of the EJW employers via OGI. As far as PD jobs go, it doesn't really look that worthwhile.

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kapital98
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby kapital98 » Wed Sep 11, 2013 3:58 pm

lmr wrote:
kapital98 wrote:
adonai wrote:I always found it interesting that some PD offices allow certified law students argue in court...I'd imagine there would be a crap load of IAC claims later down the line, frivolous or not.


I'm surprised people want to intern more than 1-2 semesters at a PD's office. By that time you should have networked pretty well. You won't have much to gain by continuing to work there.

Regarding the IAC claims, yes but that's pretty much the default argument for every criminal appeal. I externed for an appellate justice and most criminal appeals were either centered on IAC or added it in at the end. By the end of the externship I wanted to do an eye roll every time I saw this argued.


Won't gain much? So doing nearly 50 preliminary hearings and arguing a bunch of motions, interviewing a variety of clients and getting a chance at doing real life trials all before you actually even take the bar isn't gaining much?! Internships aren't just about networking but actually acquiring real life experience. As for IAC claims most of the valid ones stem from private attorney conduct, not public.


Don't get mad. I wasn't meaning to offend you. I plan on becoming a PD and have interned twice for an office already.

What I'm saying is there won't be much marginal benefit between the 10th and 50th trial. The benefit doesn't exceed the cost of your time. That's why a 3rd, 4th, 5th, or 6th internship seems a little extreme.

I agree with you about the valid IAC claims. Private attorneys often don't know what they're doing and don't have the same institutional training as PD's. I'm talking more about appellate arguments in general. Appellate attorneys love to make IAC claims whether public or private. Unfortunately, this tactic kind of dilutes the value of legitimate claims.

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Borhas
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby Borhas » Wed Sep 11, 2013 4:18 pm

Completely disagree w/ the content and spirit of the above post

anyway here's why:

1) the vast majority of interns aren't going to get a trial, let alone 10. And even if you did, yes doing more is better, because you can try different crimes, theories, different witnesses, voire dires, strategies. Prelims, motions to suppress, oral arguments on appeal, these are all great things to practice. Even writing boilerplate motions is not completely worthless.
2) there is more to learn about the profession than you could possibly master in 6 semesters
3) what else are you going to spend your time on? Classes? (hint, the vast majority of classes are absolutely worthless)
4) PD offices are more likely to hire you if you have more experience

If PD is your goal, and you have 2 semesters of internships, great. But, if you can do more, then do more. Don't waste your time on classes, or journal, or moot court (I'll make an exception for trial team) when you can be gaining more actual experience.

lmr
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby lmr » Wed Sep 11, 2013 7:11 pm

kapital98 wrote:
lmr wrote:
kapital98 wrote:
adonai wrote:I always found it interesting that some PD offices allow certified law students argue in court...I'd imagine there would be a crap load of IAC claims later down the line, frivolous or not.


I'm surprised people want to intern more than 1-2 semesters at a PD's office. By that time you should have networked pretty well. You won't have much to gain by continuing to work there.

Regarding the IAC claims, yes but that's pretty much the default argument for every criminal appeal. I externed for an appellate justice and most criminal appeals were either centered on IAC or added it in at the end. By the end of the externship I wanted to do an eye roll every time I saw this argued.


Won't gain much? So doing nearly 50 preliminary hearings and arguing a bunch of motions, interviewing a variety of clients and getting a chance at doing real life trials all before you actually even take the bar isn't gaining much?! Internships aren't just about networking but actually acquiring real life experience. As for IAC claims most of the valid ones stem from private attorney conduct, not public.


Don't get mad. I wasn't meaning to offend you. I plan on becoming a PD and have interned twice for an office already.

What I'm saying is there won't be much marginal benefit between the 10th and 50th trial. The benefit doesn't exceed the cost of your time. That's why a 3rd, 4th, 5th, or 6th internship seems a little extreme.

I agree with you about the valid IAC claims. Private attorneys often don't know what they're doing and don't have the same institutional training as PD's. I'm talking more about appellate arguments in general. Appellate attorneys love to make IAC claims whether public or private. Unfortunately, this tactic kind of dilutes the value of legitimate claims.


difference bw 10th & 50th trial? I meant prelim (maybe a probable cause hearing in your region???)-that's a ludicrous statement to make. Getting to cross-examine multiple officers and witnesses that range on cooperation and intelligence range plus getting exposed to arguing diverse arguments you are going to tell me that repeatedly doing that in REAL LIFE will lead to marginal gains? Oh and who cares about client interaction and dealing w mentally ill clients, sexist clients, and clients coming down their highs...yeah that experience will lead to a marginal gain? Why do all PD offices have trial counts you need to reach bf you get promoted? bc trial experience (or prelim/motion experience for interns) leads to marginal benefits? Huh?

You say extreme, prospective employers see DEDICATION and mock trial doesn't impress anyone. I know a kid who did two internships w the DA but boasted about having 60 mock trials under his belt-he didn't get crap w the DA or PD.

Lastly, I have a few friends working in appellate defense and most of what they do is send sorry letters to clients who send desperate handwritten notes seeking some recourse-they aren't fishing for IAC claims-many private attorneys have no freaking clue how to properly fill out a plea form and advise their client on what the hell they are pleading to and no sorry, the fact that clients argue IAC does not "dilute the value of legitimate claims" if anything it helps create higher standards for defense attorneys and safeguards clients' rights.

people who intern w the PD with the "what can they do for me attitude" (resume padding) really irk me. You dedicate your time bc you want to learn and get better and not bc you are engaging in a strategic cost-benefit analysis and to mock people who want to spend their time doing so pretty offensive and smug imo.

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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 11, 2013 7:46 pm

So getting away from the ranting a bit ... If you're gunning for LAS is applying EJW or directly the best route?

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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 11, 2013 7:52 pm

Anonymous User wrote:So getting away from the ranting a bit ... If you're gunning for LAS is applying EJW or directly the best route?


I applied directly and got an interview invitation within about 2 weeks. So in that regard, applying straight through was awesome.

But on the other hand, it sucks that I had to pay so much money to fly to New York for that first interview, when it appears that EJW counts as your first interview even if all you do is table talk. I'm now stuck in this situation where the best case scenario is I get called back for a second interview, which will cost another boatload money again. On the other hand, maybe I benefited from the advantage of applying back in August, very early in the process, and maybe that was how I so quickly secured the interview.

I would say you should apply through both avenues, so that if you don't get an interview invitation, you still get to impress them in person at EJW.

adonai
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby adonai » Wed Sep 11, 2013 11:37 pm

I'd have to agree with Borhas and lmr with regards to doing as many hearings/trials as you can. It is EXTREMELY difficult to land a jury trial that interns are allowed to do. Most of them are minor crimes and plead out. I can't tell you how many times I've had a jury trial I've prepped and it pleads out on the day of. Also, just as they both said, all the different witnesses, lawyers, and people you have to interview, examine/cross, etc. all are unique and have different personalities/backgrounds. Just learning about people and how to deal with them is a great asset in my opinion, even if it is the 20th drug prelim you've done with the same facts. Also, little legal issues/technicalities sneak in here or there that you might have never even anticipated or prepared for, so you learn about those too. In addition to adding to the cause, doing hearings/trials is just downright fun.

Borhas's third point is really relevant. I dropped journal and all other stupid law school extracurriculars so I could do as much court work as possible. I know of quite a few law students who say they want to become a DA/PD yet don't mold their law school experiences/career paths towards it and the skills/experiences that really count. Hint: those experiences are not e-board of the Journal of Technology and Law, President of the Animal Law Society, or a Securities Regulation class taught by a famous/popular professor.

As to IAC, I agree it gets old quick. I've also interned in a judicial chambers that did a lot of work related to this, and although every petitioner gets their fair review, I can't help but notice that subconsciously, deep down inside, the reader is reading with the outlook of "deny." It gets old really quick and it scares me that a really legitimate case/claim will be denied without serious consideration or just get overlooked somehow.

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kapital98
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby kapital98 » Thu Sep 12, 2013 12:38 am

I did not know this would explode the way it did. The office where I worked doesn't allow interns to do trials. After my second internship I asked the Public Defender if I should continue interning in his office. He told me "no" and that it would be a waste of time on my part. I followed his advice, came back a year later, and am now working with the office on fellowship applications (fingers crossed). If a fellowship doesn't work out I'll be doing a post-graduate internship with the office until a job opens up.

Regarding the trials: I'll stand as the lone dissent on this one. I'm perfectly willing to admit I may be wrong.

Finally, the standards for an IAC are incredibly high. Justices are very wary of what might happen if more leniency is given to IAC claims. This doesn't help anyone and many people (some from personal experience) don't have IAC claims accepted because the standard may be too high. Do an externship or clerk and this will quickly become apparent (another reason why a 6th internship may be too much...).

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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby lmr » Thu Sep 12, 2013 1:24 am

Yeah you couldn't just leave it at that, but needed to end it w a snide remark that is illogical. Yes, I'm sure your little clerkship made you an absolute scholar on IAC and the reasons why they are so difficult to win... :roll:

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BlueLotus
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby BlueLotus » Thu Sep 12, 2013 1:26 am

Are table-talks at EJW the equivalent of "screeners", or is it just casual/networking?

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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby spleenworship » Thu Sep 12, 2013 11:07 am

Borhas wrote:
AreJay711 wrote:I just nailed down an internship at a PD's office for the time between the bar and when my clerkship starts. Its definitely the most excited I've been to work for free in my life.


Congrats bro, that's great

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spleenworship
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby spleenworship » Thu Sep 12, 2013 11:12 am

BlueLotus wrote:Are table-talks at EJW the equivalent of "screeners", or is it just casual/networking?


I heard they are a combination of both. You do a little networking and they screen out/in some people and call you later if you did good.


ETA: can we stop the arguments in here? It's doing nothing for me and I doubt its doing anything for anyone else.

seatown12
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby seatown12 » Thu Sep 12, 2013 11:30 am

spleenworship wrote:
BlueLotus wrote:Are table-talks at EJW the equivalent of "screeners", or is it just casual/networking?

I heard they are a combination of both. You do a little networking and they screen out/in some people and call you later if you did good.

This.

The point of "casual networking" is to make an impression on someone so that if later on they are looking to hire they will recommend you. At EJW you know for a fact that the people you talk with are looking to hire as you speak. So at EJW you are looking to make an impression in order to be immediately recommended as a potential hire--just like in a screener.

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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 13, 2013 7:46 pm

dumb question regarding EJQ apps but if I upload a cover letter to an application, submit, and then I update the document for a different office, it doesnt change it for the first application right?

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spleenworship
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby spleenworship » Fri Sep 13, 2013 8:08 pm

Anonymous User wrote:dumb question regarding EJQ apps but if I upload a cover letter to an application, submit, and then I update the document for a different office, it doesnt change it for the first application right?


I thought it did. They tell u not to delete any documents you have uploaded or the employer won't see them. I'm assuming updating would do the same thing.

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Tanicius
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby Tanicius » Fri Sep 13, 2013 8:18 pm

Yeah, you should uploading different cover letter documents for every cover letter. I didn't even officially apply to anyone until I had already uploaded all my different cover letters, and then I just went down the list of apps, selecting which cover letter to use.

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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 13, 2013 8:27 pm

Tanicius wrote:Yeah, you should uploading different cover letter documents for every cover letter. I didn't even officially apply to anyone until I had already uploaded all my different cover letters, and then I just went down the list of apps, selecting which cover letter to use.

thanks, at least I can still correct my retarded mistake

DayTripper1967
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby DayTripper1967 » Sat Sep 14, 2013 3:28 pm

I have a grades question.

So I realize that bigger cities like SF, Chicago, and Boston require transcripts when they hire public defenders. My grades are pretty bad, but I do have good PD and public interest stuff on my resume, so I plan on practicing in a place (like Colorado or Wisconsin) that doesn't take grades into account when hiring. But I'm just wondering if I have fucked myself out of the bigger cities for good. I would think that once I have some years of experience under my belt, the grades I got from law school will be completely irrelevant.

Does anyone have any insight into this?

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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Sep 14, 2013 3:55 pm

Tanicius wrote:I have literally never been asked for a transcript by any public defender office I have interviewed for.


How typical is this of other people's experiences? Is this true only of PDs in flyover states? I'd imagine the big-city PDs (i.e. PDS, Bronx Defenders, etc.) would care a great deal about grades.

I'm T30'er with shit grades, no debt and demonstrated commitment to serving the indigent.

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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Sep 14, 2013 4:01 pm

Lady Heather wrote:I believe these are all pre-bar hiring offices (although some hire just for 'post-bar' law clerk positions). Please add any offices I've missed.

PUBLIC DEFENSE
Unsure:
    Brooklyn

No transcript:
    Bronx
    Colorado
    Mecklenberg Co (NC)
    Miami
    New Jersey
    Palm Beach
    Philly
    San Diego Fed

Requires transcript:
    Alameda Co
    CPCS
    Contra Costa Co
    Legal Aid Society
    New Hampshire
    Prettyman Fellowship
    PDS
    San Diego Co

PROSECUTION
Unsure:
    Brooklyn
    San Francisco
    Suffolk Co (MA)

Requires transcript:
    Bronx
    Cook Co
    Manhattan
    Miami
    Philly
    Queens


This is super helpful--thanks! It made my day to see that Philly and NJ PD don't ask for transcripts.

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BlueLotus
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby BlueLotus » Sat Sep 14, 2013 4:11 pm

It is said on here often that past work with victims is a huge red flag for PDs, and often merits a ding at the screener stage (esp. for folks with DA experience)

BUT, what if you're applying for a non-criminal division of a PD's office?

For instance, the Child Advocacy Unit at Defender Association of Philadelphia, Child and Family Law Unit of CPCS, and Office of the Law Guardian at NJPD represent children in civil family court proceedings.

I've never had any prosecutorial experience, but before law school I did work on a hotline for DV survivors, and last summer I interned at an immigration legal aid org with undocumented clients seeking U visas and VAWA self-petitions (not exclusively, did other stuff too, like cancellation of removal, DACA, SIJ, etc.) . Will those experiences be "bad" even if I'm applying for a civil division of a PD's office like those I mentioned above?




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