How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

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spleenworship
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby spleenworship » Mon Aug 05, 2013 3:59 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Borhas wrote:
spleenworship wrote:Let's rephrase the argument slightly. ITE is it worth losing the chance at 3 smaller jobs to get a chance at 3-5 jobs I really want?

I'm closer to a "true believer" than not... But I've got a mortgage and 2 kids to feed.


Apply and then reneg later if you get a better offer

Seriously.

ITE you have to be a rational economic actor


THIS. You can't be turning down interviews (without a really good reason) so you can hold out for a handful of dream jobs. You need to maximize at this point.


Anybody know how state jobs like these DA positions tend to react to this? I think you guys are right, but I want to know what to expect if I do this.

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Borhas
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby Borhas » Mon Aug 05, 2013 4:02 pm

I'm no expert on this but they will be skeptical

You have to focus on the neutral aspects of DA work like justice, fairness, art of trial lawyering, and maybe even the fact that poor people and minorities are more likely to be victims of crime

That way you won't look like a phony when you say you want to be a DA

thecactus
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby thecactus » Mon Aug 05, 2013 4:47 pm

Are there any other interviews you can land besides with a DA's office? Like maybe a non-profit of some kind or other public interest work? I agree that you shouldn't be turning down interviews, but at the same time, if the local PD's office gets a whiff that you've interviewed with the DA, that door may slam shut in your face and never open again. You're walking on fire...just be careful I guess. Good luck with that.

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spleenworship
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby spleenworship » Mon Aug 05, 2013 5:47 pm

1. Borhas: I meant react to a renege?

2. Cactus: How would they know though?

seatown12
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby seatown12 » Mon Aug 05, 2013 6:08 pm

spleenworship wrote:1. Borhas: I meant react to a renege?

I'm sure they will be mad, but what can they do? At the point you renege you will already have been offered and accepted your dream job. If you are in the same jurisdiction don't expect to be friends with any of the ADAs, but they would have to be extremely unprofessional to let personal feelings affect their cases. Basically what I'm saying is the potential consequences will be insignificant.

thecactus
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby thecactus » Mon Aug 05, 2013 8:58 pm

spleenworship wrote:2. Cactus: How would they know though?


I am not sure what the legal community is like where you're applying...but this summer I worked in a PD's office in a smaller county, and pretty much everyone knew each other. I was only there for a summer and could identify all the DA's by name and appearance even if I didn't speak to them. Everyone knew each other -- PDs, DAs, bailiffs, court clerks, judges, court reporters, law interns, even the security guards. In that environment I can easily imagine word getting around if someone interviewed for both the DA's and PD's office. This might not be the case in a larger county though.

Obviously you know your situation much better than some rando on the Internet, so you do what you need to do. Just tread lightly is all.

Anonymous User
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Aug 06, 2013 1:16 am

I want to work for a PD office badly when I graduate, an area is offering internships for summer post-2L, and is known for giving jobs to those interns.
I know it's tough to find jobs right now, but it's somewhere I'd rather not live long-term. Should I still go for it?

lmr
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby lmr » Tue Aug 06, 2013 2:20 am

Anonymous User wrote:I want to work for a PD office badly when I graduate, an area is offering internships for summer post-2L, and is known for giving jobs to those interns.
I know it's tough to find jobs right now, but it's somewhere I'd rather not live long-term. Should I still go for it?


There are so many PD offices that hire 2Ls for the summer that are in desirable locations, & do hire later, that I wouldn't bother wasting a summer in a place I don't want to be. If the office has a great internship program (lets you speak on the record and actually has some decent intern program) then maybe I'd consider it. If this office is local then maybe you should work there during spring 2L or fall 3L rather than summer there. Also there's no guarantee that this office will hire just bc you interned there for the summer. there are plenty of loyal interns who don't get hired. I'd just go for the office that will give me the best experience.

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spleenworship
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby spleenworship » Tue Aug 06, 2013 2:23 am

Anonymous User wrote:I want to work for a PD office badly when I graduate, an area is offering internships for summer post-2L, and is known for giving jobs to those interns.
I know it's tough to find jobs right now, but it's somewhere I'd rather not live long-term. Should I still go for it?



Last year I would've said "no."

Now that I'm in the Vale of Tears I say go for it. I'm applying to offices in rural areas with less than 50,000 people in a whole county. As long as I get a legal job that'll lead to another legal job down the line (i.e. not starbucks) I'll count these three years as a win. You can always move to a better area's PDs office from there later on.

That said, if there are other PDs offices taking interns in more desirable locations I wouldn't do it.

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kapital98
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby kapital98 » Tue Aug 06, 2013 9:10 am

spleenworship wrote:Last year I would've said "no."

Now that I'm in the Vale of Tears I say go for it. I'm applying to offices in rural areas with less than 50,000 people in a whole county. As long as I get a legal job that'll lead to another legal job down the line (i.e. not starbucks) I'll count these three years as a win. You can always move to a better area's PDs office from there later on.

That said, if there are other PDs offices taking interns in more desirable locations I wouldn't do it.


These are the places I want to be hired. It's extremely tough to get a job with a local rural county because they have so few positions. It's a crap shoot to find one that is relatively close to where I want to live and with an opening in the near future.

At least with larger offices they have more positions opening up and being filled with new attorneys.

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wbrother
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby wbrother » Tue Aug 06, 2013 11:50 am

Borhas wrote:
spleenworship wrote:Let's rephrase the argument slightly. ITE is it worth losing the chance at 3 smaller jobs to get a chance at 3-5 jobs I really want?

I'm closer to a "true believer" than not... But I've got a mortgage and 2 kids to feed.


Apply and then reneg later if you get a better offer

Seriously.

ITE you have to be a rational economic actor

+1

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BlueLotus
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby BlueLotus » Wed Aug 07, 2013 8:31 pm

Will working with U visa and VAWA self-petitioners 1L summer look bad to PD offices? (volunteered at an immigration non-profit, so at least it is public interest)

seatown12
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby seatown12 » Thu Aug 08, 2013 10:03 am

BlueLotus wrote:Will working with U visa and VAWA self-petitioners 1L summer look bad to PD offices? (volunteered at an immigration non-profit, so at least it is public interest)

No, it will look really good actually, just portray it as immigration work and minimize the victim advocacy aspects. If you have language skills make sure to highlight that as well.

Anonymous User
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 08, 2013 1:46 pm

lmr wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I want to work for a PD office badly when I graduate, an area is offering internships for summer post-2L, and is known for giving jobs to those interns.
I know it's tough to find jobs right now, but it's somewhere I'd rather not live long-term. Should I still go for it?


There are so many PD offices that hire 2Ls for the summer that are in desirable locations, & do hire later, that I wouldn't bother wasting a summer in a place I don't want to be. If the office has a great internship program (lets you speak on the record and actually has some decent intern program) then maybe I'd consider it. If this office is local then maybe you should work there during spring 2L or fall 3L rather than summer there. Also there's no guarantee that this office will hire just bc you interned there for the summer. there are plenty of loyal interns who don't get hired. I'd just go for the office that will give me the best experience.

The only office that I know that does this is Colorado, what are the other offices that do this?

lmr
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby lmr » Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:50 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
lmr wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I want to work for a PD office badly when I graduate, an area is offering internships for summer post-2L, and is known for giving jobs to those interns.
I know it's tough to find jobs right now, but it's somewhere I'd rather not live long-term. Should I still go for it?


There are so many PD offices that hire 2Ls for the summer that are in desirable locations, & do hire later, that I wouldn't bother wasting a summer in a place I don't want to be. If the office has a great internship program (lets you speak on the record and actually has some decent intern program) then maybe I'd consider it. If this office is local then maybe you should work there during spring 2L or fall 3L rather than summer there. Also there's no guarantee that this office will hire just bc you interned there for the summer. there are plenty of loyal interns who don't get hired. I'd just go for the office that will give me the best experience.

The only office that I know that does this is Colorado, what are the other offices that do this?


Do what? Colorado hires a lot of outsiders too.

Anonymous User
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:06 am

I am applying for jobs as a 3L:

have any of you seen a good guide online of how to do well in the closing argument/summation part of a PD interview? I've never given a closing argument before and was hoping for some guidance from somewhere.

Also, a huge part of why I want to do this job is because a number of people close to me when I was growing up had contact with the system. I was too young to know exactly what they were being charged with or how much time they faced (one is still doing time) but I knew what it felt like to have the threat of the government taking a family member away. However, I am white and I know I grew up with way more advantages than most of our clients and I'm worried that my narrative will just come off as a spoiled kid from the suburbs who didn't know how good he had it.

I also don't know how personal you are supposed to get when an application or an interviewer asks you about why your life experience makes you want to be a PD. My answer for 2L internship interviews was basically "family with long history of public service and I PD'd last summer" which is definitely part of why I want to do this, but I feel like adding more of the personal reason may not only make me a more compelling candidate, but also make me feel less weird for holding back in interviews.

lmr
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby lmr » Fri Aug 09, 2013 2:17 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I am applying for jobs as a 3L:

have any of you seen a good guide online of how to do well in the closing argument/summation part of a PD interview? I've never given a closing argument before and was hoping for some guidance from somewhere.

Also, a huge part of why I want to do this job is because a number of people close to me when I was growing up had contact with the system. I was too young to know exactly what they were being charged with or how much time they faced (one is still doing time) but I knew what it felt like to have the threat of the government taking a family member away. However, I am white and I know I grew up with way more advantages than most of our clients and I'm worried that my narrative will just come off as a spoiled kid from the suburbs who didn't know how good he had it.

I also don't know how personal you are supposed to get when an application or an interviewer asks you about why your life experience makes you want to be a PD. My answer for 2L internship interviews was basically "family with long history of public service and I PD'd last summer" which is definitely part of why I want to do this, but I feel like adding more of the personal reason may not only make me a more compelling candidate, but also make me feel less weird for holding back in interviews.


No one cares if you are privileged and white; all they care about is you being willing to fight for your client and not let your privilege be a barrier to having compassion & drive to serve them. I think you should bring up your personal history. With public interest type jobs i think it helps you to have a personal story and reason for this job versus spewing out some generic response. As long as you have a professional/composed way of communicating your personal motivations for this job then you should be good.

This might help with closing argument.
http://www.ncids.org/Defender%20Trainin ... gument.pdf

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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Aug 12, 2013 1:56 am

Does anyone know about Alameda post-bar interview process? Do they give you an oral exam on the first interview? like prepare an opening or closing in ten minutes? Or is the first interview a screener? Don't some offices give the candidate a couple days to review the file and then have them do it for the 2nd round?

Anonymous User
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Aug 12, 2013 2:20 am

Anonymous User wrote:I am applying for jobs as a 3L:

have any of you seen a good guide online of how to do well in the closing argument/summation part of a PD interview? I've never given a closing argument before and was hoping for some guidance from somewhere.

Also, a huge part of why I want to do this job is because a number of people close to me when I was growing up had contact with the system. I was too young to know exactly what they were being charged with or how much time they faced (one is still doing time) but I knew what it felt like to have the threat of the government taking a family member away. However, I am white and I know I grew up with way more advantages than most of our clients and I'm worried that my narrative will just come off as a spoiled kid from the suburbs who didn't know how good he had it.

I also don't know how personal you are supposed to get when an application or an interviewer asks you about why your life experience makes you want to be a PD. My answer for 2L internship interviews was basically "family with long history of public service and I PD'd last summer" which is definitely part of why I want to do this, but I feel like adding more of the personal reason may not only make me a more compelling candidate, but also make me feel less weird for holding back in interviews.


I think it would be compelling for you to describe your personal background in an interview. You can still explain that you recognize your privilege and that your life has been much different from those of most clients. I've talked about getting arrested on a B.S. charge in a similar way: it sucked and taught me how frightening the criminal legal process can be, but it also highlighted how radically different my experience was than if I had been poor, or an immigrant, or mentally ill, etc.

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Borhas
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby Borhas » Tue Aug 13, 2013 2:41 am

Anonymous User wrote:Does anyone know about Alameda post-bar interview process? Do they give you an oral exam on the first interview? like prepare an opening or closing in ten minutes? Or is the first interview a screener? Don't some offices give the candidate a couple days to review the file and then have them do it for the 2nd round?


if you have interned there you go directly to the 2nd round interview, which is like a 1-2 hour thing with oral exam, with an opening or a closing or something like that

if you havent interned with them you have to do as a screener first, which usually involves some sort of ethics/prof responsibility hypo

Anonymous User
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Aug 13, 2013 3:36 am

Borhas wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Does anyone know about Alameda post-bar interview process? Do they give you an oral exam on the first interview? like prepare an opening or closing in ten minutes? Or is the first interview a screener? Don't some offices give the candidate a couple days to review the file and then have them do it for the 2nd round?


if you have interned there you go directly to the 2nd round interview, which is like a 1-2 hour thing with oral exam, with an opening or a closing or something like that

if you havent interned with them you have to do as a screener first, which usually involves some sort of ethics/prof responsibility hypo


Thanks for the info. Are you given any time to prepare/digest the case file? 20 minutes or a couple days? How are these on the spot opening/closings done? I mean how intelligent and thoughtful can these things be if you are just given the facts right away?

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spleenworship
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby spleenworship » Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:41 pm

So EJW registration is open. Let's see: 19 jobs, only 5 hiring pre bar for attorneys. And of those, I've already applied for one. And only two of those 5 are for PDs offices.

Does it get better over the next few days or something? Do they add a bunch of employers later?

Because I can apply for CO PDs on my own and don't need to fly to DC for that.

Void
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby Void » Tue Aug 13, 2013 2:22 pm

spleenworship wrote:So EJW registration is open. Let's see: 19 jobs, only 5 hiring pre bar for attorneys. And of those, I've already applied for one. And only two of those 5 are for PDs offices.

Does it get better over the next few days or something? Do they add a bunch of employers later?

Because I can apply for CO PDs on my own and don't need to fly to DC for that.

Is there any way I can see who is attending and who is hiring for post-grad positions without paying the registration fee?

EDIT: never mind- I just found the list. Looks like all the same organizations that go to all of these things (and to whom I have already applied and heard nothing!)

hannahmontana
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby hannahmontana » Tue Aug 13, 2013 3:09 pm

Do most people usually apply to PDs through EJW or just apply directly to the office? Does it make a difference; do hiring managers favor one method over the other?

Also, does anyone know when Orleans Public Defenders usually start taking applications?

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AreJay711
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby AreJay711 » Tue Aug 13, 2013 5:08 pm

Does anyone know if I have a reasonable shot going for a prosecutor / public defender position after doing big law 2L summer? I have a clerkship with my target state's highest court and have taken some upper-level crim courses but no pd / da experience. I'll try to find an internship or something after graduation and before the clerkship (I graduate in Feb and the clerkship starts in Aug.) but assume I can't find something like that.




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