How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

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jml8756
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby jml8756 » Thu Jul 11, 2013 3:56 pm

gdane wrote:So I'm not sure what to do. The Miami SAO interviews at my school in the fall. However, one of the AUSA's I work with worked at Miami SAO for a while and said he can send my resume and a good word in to the hiring dood. This is great news, but I'm not sure if my school would have an issue with me circumventing them and the OCI process. Do I ask the school or just use the "inside track" I've been given?


Can you give us some more info on this "inside track?" If the AUSA just said he'll pass along your resume with a good word, my guess is you'll still have to go through the same interview process as everyone else.

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gdane
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby gdane » Thu Jul 11, 2013 4:30 pm

jml8756 wrote:
gdane wrote:So I'm not sure what to do. The Miami SAO interviews at my school in the fall. However, one of the AUSA's I work with worked at Miami SAO for a while and said he can send my resume and a good word in to the hiring dood. This is great news, but I'm not sure if my school would have an issue with me circumventing them and the OCI process. Do I ask the school or just use the "inside track" I've been given?


Can you give us some more info on this "inside track?" If the AUSA just said he'll pass along your resume with a good word, my guess is you'll still have to go through the same interview process as everyone else.

The AUSA said he's gotten people jobs at the Miami SAO before. Whether or not I'll get it is not the issue. I was just concerned whether there was something "wrong" about doing this. I remember that during OCI you weren't supposed to send in stuff to firms on your own if they were going to interview at your school and I thought there might be a similar concern here.

jml8756
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby jml8756 » Thu Jul 11, 2013 4:45 pm

gdane wrote:
jml8756 wrote:
gdane wrote:So I'm not sure what to do. The Miami SAO interviews at my school in the fall. However, one of the AUSA's I work with worked at Miami SAO for a while and said he can send my resume and a good word in to the hiring dood. This is great news, but I'm not sure if my school would have an issue with me circumventing them and the OCI process. Do I ask the school or just use the "inside track" I've been given?


Can you give us some more info on this "inside track?" If the AUSA just said he'll pass along your resume with a good word, my guess is you'll still have to go through the same interview process as everyone else.

The AUSA said he's gotten people jobs at the Miami SAO before. Whether or not I'll get it is not the issue. I was just concerned whether there was something "wrong" about doing this. I remember that during OCI you weren't supposed to send in stuff to firms on your own if they were going to interview at your school and I thought there might be a similar concern here.


If it were you sending in your resume, I would say don't do that. But having your AUSA send in your resume with a good word is more like a recommendation than anything else. You should give him the go-ahead to do whatever he thinks is best to help you get the job. Your school wants you to get a job and I don't think you have to worry about them getting weird.

You're still planning on setting up the OCI interview though, right?

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gdane
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby gdane » Thu Jul 11, 2013 5:41 pm

I'll definitely go through the whole oci process.

Thanks for the advice.

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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jul 11, 2013 7:59 pm

gdane wrote:I'll definitely go through the whole oci process.

Thanks for the advice.



I currently work at the office you're thinking about applying for. I direct mailed the Office and participated in my schools version of OCI (resume drop) for the office. My school didn't really care 1 way or the other. I'm not sure how concerned you are about getting an interview, but I called the recruiting guy 3-4 times between August 1st and October 1st.

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gdane
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby gdane » Thu Jul 11, 2013 11:21 pm

Thank you for the advice. Ill cover all my bases and hopefully land a job there.

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BlueLotus
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby BlueLotus » Thu Jul 11, 2013 11:25 pm

What is starting pay for Defender Association of Philadelphia?

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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jul 12, 2013 6:28 am

I wrote a suppression motion for my 1L summer at a pd office and after submitting it the charges were dropped against my client..if im using this motion as my writing sample, would employers care about the outcome of it and if so whats the best way to include that the charges were dropped

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FlanAl
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby FlanAl » Fri Jul 12, 2013 7:59 am

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Borhas wrote:If you asked me a month before I got my PD job whether I would have gone for a big law firm if I had the chance I would have said yes. All in all I would much rather be a PD than a Big Lawyer, but I would much rather be a Big Lawyer than be unemployed with tons of debt. You owe it to yourself to keep your options open. And I don't think you necessarily close many doors with one summer at a Big Law firm, as long as you do a clinic afterwards.

Yeah, this makes sense too. It's frustrating how difficult it is to juggle the hiring schedules for the different kinds of tracks.


Pretty sure there is no way you are going to find a firm let you wait to make your decision in time for PD offices to get back to you. But you should do it for the interview experience.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Fri Jul 12, 2013 8:22 am

Anonymous User wrote:I wrote a suppression motion for my 1L summer at a pd office and after submitting it the charges were dropped against my client..if im using this motion as my writing sample, would employers care about the outcome of it and if so whats the best way to include that the charges were dropped

I would include a cover sheet explaining what the writing sample is, and you can put the outcome there.

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Tanicius
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby Tanicius » Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:10 am

FlanAl wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Borhas wrote:If you asked me a month before I got my PD job whether I would have gone for a big law firm if I had the chance I would have said yes. All in all I would much rather be a PD than a Big Lawyer, but I would much rather be a Big Lawyer than be unemployed with tons of debt. You owe it to yourself to keep your options open. And I don't think you necessarily close many doors with one summer at a Big Law firm, as long as you do a clinic afterwards.

Yeah, this makes sense too. It's frustrating how difficult it is to juggle the hiring schedules for the different kinds of tracks.


Pretty sure there is no way you are going to find a firm let you wait to make your decision in time for PD offices to get back to you. But you should do it for the interview experience.


Firms interviewing with our shool had to wait pretty much the whole year if they gave someone a firm offer but that person wanted to wait for the outcome of a public interest application. I figure this is starting to become commonplace.

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Borhas
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby Borhas » Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:11 am

FlanAl wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Borhas wrote:If you asked me a month before I got my PD job whether I would have gone for a big law firm if I had the chance I would have said yes. All in all I would much rather be a PD than a Big Lawyer, but I would much rather be a Big Lawyer than be unemployed with tons of debt. You owe it to yourself to keep your options open. And I don't think you necessarily close many doors with one summer at a Big Law firm, as long as you do a clinic afterwards.

Yeah, this makes sense too. It's frustrating how difficult it is to juggle the hiring schedules for the different kinds of tracks.


Pretty sure there is no way you are going to find a firm let you wait to make your decision in time for PD offices to get back to you. But you should do it for the interview experience.


If a firm offers and you accept and then a PD offers and you'd rather do PD then just reneg on the firm offer. This is a free market, and you are a fungible good to them. You owe them nothing.

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FlanAl
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby FlanAl » Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:18 pm

Tanicius wrote:
FlanAl wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Borhas wrote:If you asked me a month before I got my PD job whether I would have gone for a big law firm if I had the chance I would have said yes. All in all I would much rather be a PD than a Big Lawyer, but I would much rather be a Big Lawyer than be unemployed with tons of debt. You owe it to yourself to keep your options open. And I don't think you necessarily close many doors with one summer at a Big Law firm, as long as you do a clinic afterwards.

Yeah, this makes sense too. It's frustrating how difficult it is to juggle the hiring schedules for the different kinds of tracks.


Pretty sure there is no way you are going to find a firm let you wait to make your decision in time for PD offices to get back to you. But you should do it for the interview experience.


Firms interviewing with our shool had to wait pretty much the whole year if they gave someone a firm offer but that person wanted to wait for the outcome of a public interest application. I figure this is starting to become commonplace.


I looked and yeah it looks like NALP guidelines force them to hold your firm offer open for you until 4/1

hopin10
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby hopin10 » Sun Jul 14, 2013 10:17 pm

FlanAl wrote:I looked and yeah it looks like NALP guidelines force them to hold your firm offer open for you until 4/1


Be careful with this. If memory serves, it's a recommendation and not a binding guideline.

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Tanicius
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby Tanicius » Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:26 pm

Holy shitballs I'm starting to get pissed. My whole aim of this summer was to get on the record and do something in court. I've now been delayed from my fifth hearing in a row because the prosecutor failed to realize the cop was on vacation on the designated date until the day of the hearing. Because I've been doing practically nothing but assisting attorneys for court cases and preparing for crappy little PC hearings, I've done pretty much no meaningful legal writing that can serve as a writing sample for my 2L summer. All of it's been 3-4-page suppression motions where the facts and arguments are left vague by design so as to force the prosecution to prove up everything during the actual hearing.

Three weeks left...

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FlanAl
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby FlanAl » Mon Jul 15, 2013 7:18 pm

This actually brings up something I've been thinking about. 1L summer I did a ton of writing, and almost none of it was off templates. This summer I've done very little writing and its almost all been building off templates. I'd feel a little disingenuous using one of these motions as a writing sample, but at the same time I feel like knowing how to utilize work that your colleagues have done is a big part of being a PD.

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Mroberts3
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby Mroberts3 » Mon Jul 15, 2013 8:08 pm

FlanAl wrote:This actually brings up something I've been thinking about. 1L summer I did a ton of writing, and almost none of it was off templates. This summer I've done very little writing and its almost all been building off templates. I'd feel a little disingenuous using one of these motions as a writing sample, but at the same time I feel like knowing how to utilize work that your colleagues have done is a big part of being a PD.


Meh, maybe just find an assignment where you have a little more time and do one from scratch. You can still use the structure and case citations from a prior memo, but the writing will be all yours. Just my 2 cents.

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Mroberts3
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby Mroberts3 » Mon Jul 15, 2013 8:15 pm

Tanicius wrote:All of it's been 3-4-page suppression motions where the facts and arguments are left vague by design so as to force the prosecution to prove up everything during the actual hearing.

Three weeks left...


I realize this is not responsive to your post and is not meant to be personal, but I just had to comment on how much DAs at my office hated those motions. I get the logic of it, but honestly I don't see how it helps. If the case is strong for the prosecution, the motion looks desperate and lazy. If there is an obvious problem with a search then being vague makes it look like you don't know what the problem even is. I realize most of the action is in the hearing itself, but frankly it seems like a waste of everyone's time to go over material where there is no dispute.


I know as interns we don't set policy on these things, but as someone who has had to write oppositions to essentially blank motions I just needed to vent ;)

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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 15, 2013 8:21 pm

Tanicius wrote:Holy shitballs I'm starting to get pissed. My whole aim of this summer was to get on the record and do something in court. I've now been delayed from my fifth hearing in a row because the prosecutor failed to realize the cop was on vacation on the designated date until the day of the hearing. Because I've been doing practically nothing but assisting attorneys for court cases and preparing for crappy little PC hearings, I've done pretty much no meaningful legal writing that can serve as a writing sample for my 2L summer. All of it's been 3-4-page suppression motions where the facts and arguments are left vague by design so as to force the prosecution to prove up everything during the actual hearing.

Three weeks left...



What do you mean "prepping for crappy little PC hearings" don't you get to cross examine the witnesses and argue at the end? Sorry I'm in a state where we have preliminary examinations instead, wondering what an intern/defense's role is in a PC hearing, just to argue that it shouldn't go to grand jury?

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Tanicius
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby Tanicius » Mon Jul 15, 2013 8:28 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tanicius wrote:Holy shitballs I'm starting to get pissed. My whole aim of this summer was to get on the record and do something in court. I've now been delayed from my fifth hearing in a row because the prosecutor failed to realize the cop was on vacation on the designated date until the day of the hearing. Because I've been doing practically nothing but assisting attorneys for court cases and preparing for crappy little PC hearings, I've done pretty much no meaningful legal writing that can serve as a writing sample for my 2L summer. All of it's been 3-4-page suppression motions where the facts and arguments are left vague by design so as to force the prosecution to prove up everything during the actual hearing.

Three weeks left...



What do you mean "prepping for crappy little PC hearings" don't you get to cross examine the witnesses and argue at the end? Sorry I'm in a state where we have preliminary examinations instead, wondering what an intern/defense's role is in a PC hearing, just to argue that it shouldn't go to grand jury?


I haven't been able to appear and cross or argue anything because the DA keeps continuing the hearing last minute due to witness unavailability. I write the paperwork motion but that's useless because there's no skill involved.

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FlanAl
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby FlanAl » Mon Jul 15, 2013 8:33 pm

Do any of the schools produce a guidebook like the Davis/Goldengate one for all of the California office but for all the statewide pd offices? Just a list with a little blurb about hiring practices about each of the 22 statewide offices would be awesome (pretty sure its 22).

lmr
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby lmr » Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:00 pm

FlanAl wrote:Do any of the schools produce a guidebook like the Davis/Goldengate one for all of the California office but for all the statewide pd offices? Just a list with a little blurb about hiring practices about each of the 22 statewide offices would be awesome (pretty sure its 22).



These aren' perfect but better than nothing, I guess.

http://www.pslawnet.org/uploads/Public_ ... URRENT.pdf

http://www.law.virginia.edu/pdf/pubserv ... al1011.pdf

lmr
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby lmr » Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:07 pm

Tanicius wrote:Holy shitballs I'm starting to get pissed. My whole aim of this summer was to get on the record and do something in court. I've now been delayed from my fifth hearing in a row because the prosecutor failed to realize the cop was on vacation on the designated date until the day of the hearing. Because I've been doing practically nothing but assisting attorneys for court cases and preparing for crappy little PC hearings, I've done pretty much no meaningful legal writing that can serve as a writing sample for my 2L summer. All of it's been 3-4-page suppression motions where the facts and arguments are left vague by design so as to force the prosecution to prove up everything during the actual hearing.

Three weeks left...


There has to be other attorneys out there that have motions that need to be written. You need to communicate to someone about wanting to write a motion-i think motions to dismiss make the best writing samples. btw if your goal is to be a pd/da they won't ask you for a writing sample for 2L summer. No one will expect anything groundbreaking from your 1L summer.

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Tanicius
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby Tanicius » Tue Jul 16, 2013 12:15 am

lmr wrote:
Tanicius wrote:Holy shitballs I'm starting to get pissed. My whole aim of this summer was to get on the record and do something in court. I've now been delayed from my fifth hearing in a row because the prosecutor failed to realize the cop was on vacation on the designated date until the day of the hearing. Because I've been doing practically nothing but assisting attorneys for court cases and preparing for crappy little PC hearings, I've done pretty much no meaningful legal writing that can serve as a writing sample for my 2L summer. All of it's been 3-4-page suppression motions where the facts and arguments are left vague by design so as to force the prosecution to prove up everything during the actual hearing.

Three weeks left...


There has to be other attorneys out there that have motions that need to be written. You need to communicate to someone about wanting to write a motion-i think motions to dismiss make the best writing samples. btw if your goal is to be a pd/da they won't ask you for a writing sample for 2L summer. No one will expect anything groundbreaking from your 1L summer.


I'm a rising 3L, working for a PD office second summer. It's just bad luck. By virtue of being able to appear in court, the only motions they give me are ones that are aimed at appearing in court. Those would be short, relatively fact-absent boilerplate motions about low-level misdemeanors that neither the parties nor judge ever have any real intention of reading, because the only thing that matters is what comes out during the hearing. This would be fine, except none of these worthless boilerplate motions have ended up with me actually being able to appear, so all I have to show for this summer is a bunch of terribly meaningless writing samples. I have much better ones from 1L summer, but in an ideal world I wouldn't have to explain this stupid problem to a potential employer during the interview when my lack of a 2L sample raises eyebrows.

lala7
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby lala7 » Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:54 am

Does anyone know which prosecution offices hire pre-bar? I feel like every time someone asks this question, the only answers are for PD offices. Is there a list for DA/SA offices somewhere and I totally missed it?

Also, how early is too early to apply for job openings listed on DA office websites? For rising 3Ls, is it too early? December?




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