How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

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wbrother
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby wbrother » Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:19 pm

I've heard Riverside PD too? But you seem to have the inside scoop on CA PD offices.

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FlanAl
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby FlanAl » Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:22 pm

Anonymous User wrote:So I am trying to gather a list of offices that are hiring, so I can just apply. Anyone know of where i could find a list of offices that are usually hiring?

so far

bronx
brooklyn
cook county
philly


where did you get this info? and what do we mean by hiring? like, places looking for bar admitted attorneys now and fairly frequently or places that usually hire a class of attorneys?

I think that this is a great idea!

Anonymous User
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:28 pm

If you all are talking about PD offices, Cook County does not hire before the bar.

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Borhas
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby Borhas » Mon Jul 08, 2013 9:41 pm

wbrother wrote:I've heard Riverside PD too? But you seem to have the inside scoop on CA PD offices.


I don't think they have post-bar clerkships or hire PD's before law school, but I'm not sure

I'm pretty sure that the only paid post-bar clerkships in CA are San Diego, Alameda, and Contra Costa

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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:19 pm

Heard from my school's Career Services that CPCS just had a hiring freeze. :-(

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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:38 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Heard from my school's Career Services that CPCS just had a hiring freeze. :-(


Weird because a few months ago I heard they are starting to hire more new attys pre-bar

Kentucky hires pre-bar
Miami, West Palm, sometimes Tampa and Jacksonville
MO if you're willing to work in BFE
Alaska

There really are like a gazilion offices that hire pre bar. When did you all start applying for full time gigs? August? September?

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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:23 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Heard from my school's Career Services that CPCS just had a hiring freeze. :-(


Weird because a few months ago I heard they are starting to hire more new attys pre-bar

Kentucky hires pre-bar
Miami, West Palm, sometimes Tampa and Jacksonville
MO if you're willing to work in BFE
Alaska

There really are like a gazilion offices that hire pre bar. When did you all start applying for full time gigs? August? September?


If you're dedicated to Florida, I think Broward dose somewhat regular entry-level hiring but they look at people in the spring semester/start of summer. I e-mailed them and they basically told me as much, so, a viable option if you're dead set on the FL bar.

NH came to EJW this past year but didn't take a class due to funding issues. They're actually pretty flexible about not demanding you go to extreme bufu.

If you want appellate, OAD in NYC does the two or three year fellowship but they seem to err toward academic prestige/post-clerkship people.

Also in NYC if you're interested in juvenile justice, Juvenile Rights at Legal Aid takes a class too but you have to be willing to serve as a GAL in abuse and neglect cases. GAL and Juvenile Justice are separate w/in juvenile rights and you're more likely to start as a GAL but you can switch after a few years.

Also this year, Nassau County Legal Aid, really late around mid spring advertised that they would consider people signed up for the NY bar graduating in spring 2013 for fall 2013 positions.

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BlueLotus
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby BlueLotus » Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:30 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Heard from my school's Career Services that CPCS just had a hiring freeze. :-(


Weird because a few months ago I heard they are starting to hire more new attys pre-bar



Ahh, nvm, looks like you're right. My CSO adviser told me that in mid-June. Looks like a bunch of available positions were just posted on 7/1. http://www.publiccounsel.net/employment ... index.html

I know that PD's offices generally look askance at applicants like myself who have work/volunteer experience on behalf of victims, but will that bias still come into play if I apply for positions with the Children and Family Law Division of CPCS, which only handles civil matters?

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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:08 am

BlueLotus wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Heard from my school's Career Services that CPCS just had a hiring freeze. :-(


Weird because a few months ago I heard they are starting to hire more new attys pre-bar



Ahh, nvm, looks like you're right. My CSO adviser told me that in mid-June. Looks like a bunch of available positions were just posted on 7/1. http://www.publiccounsel.net/employment ... index.html

I know that PD's offices generally look askance at applicants like myself who have work/volunteer experience on behalf of victims, but will that bias still come into play if I apply for positions with the Children and Family Law Division of CPCS, which only handles civil matters?


Hey Blue Lotus, I'm the anon from above. I actually interviewed with Legal Aid JRP which handles the minor's representation in abuse/neglect cases. I had experience working with DV victims that some PD offices didn't love but JRP was enthusiastic about it. So, I think the CAFL division at CPCS should not have an issue with it. The difference in your shoes probably is that you would be representing parents as opposed to children, I think, right? The only wrinkle might be that you could be representing an abusing parent who has lost custody because he or she is the abuser in the relationship and the office might worry you won't be able to be sympathetic to your client but overall, I think the civil division folks are not quite as harsh about any sort of victim-oriented experience as PDs are. I'm not sure if your experience was a DV-oriented experience but I just highlighted my DV experience as giving my an understanding of how abusive relationships impact families.

hopin10
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby hopin10 » Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:17 am

Anonymous User wrote:So I am trying to gather a list of offices that are hiring, so I can just apply. Anyone know of where i could find a list of offices that are usually hiring?

so far

bronx
brooklyn
cook county
philly


Taken from the 3L Public Defender Applications thread (seems to exclude California):

Offices hiring pre-bar, sent out offers on the early side:
- Bronx
- Colorado
- New Jersey
- Miami
- PDS (D.C.)
- Philly
- Prettyman Fellowship (Georgetown)

Officers hiring pre-bar, sent out offers on the late side:
- Brooklyn
- CPCS (Mass.)
- Legal Aid (NYC)
- Mecklenberg
- San Diego federal
- West Palm Beach

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Borhas
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby Borhas » Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:29 am

I think San Diego federal is out in the short term, sequestration has seriously F'd them up

but maybe I'm wrong, just basing this on talking to a deputy PD there

adonai
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby adonai » Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:06 am

LA PD hires post-bars, but it doesn't lead to permanent employment + you have to leave after you pass the bar.

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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:11 am

Borhas wrote:I think San Diego federal is out in the short term, sequestration has seriously F'd them up

but maybe I'm wrong, just basing this on talking to a deputy PD there


My good friend is at FPD in SD, and he thinks the current PDs might be laid off.

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BlueLotus
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby BlueLotus » Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:25 am

Anonymous User wrote:
BlueLotus wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Heard from my school's Career Services that CPCS just had a hiring freeze. :-(


Weird because a few months ago I heard they are starting to hire more new attys pre-bar



Ahh, nvm, looks like you're right. My CSO adviser told me that in mid-June. Looks like a bunch of available positions were just posted on 7/1. http://www.publiccounsel.net/employment ... index.html

I know that PD's offices generally look askance at applicants like myself who have work/volunteer experience on behalf of victims, but will that bias still come into play if I apply for positions with the Children and Family Law Division of CPCS, which only handles civil matters?


Hey Blue Lotus, I'm the anon from above. I actually interviewed with Legal Aid JRP which handles the minor's representation in abuse/neglect cases. I had experience working with DV victims that some PD offices didn't love but JRP was enthusiastic about it. So, I think the CAFL division at CPCS should not have an issue with it. The difference in your shoes probably is that you would be representing parents as opposed to children, I think, right? The only wrinkle might be that you could be representing an abusing parent who has lost custody because he or she is the abuser in the relationship and the office might worry you won't be able to be sympathetic to your client but overall, I think the civil division folks are not quite as harsh about any sort of victim-oriented experience as PDs are. I'm not sure if your experience was a DV-oriented experience but I just highlighted my DV experience as giving my an understanding of how abusive relationships impact families.


^Thanks! This is helpful.

Yeah I did DV work in several capacities before law school, and in my current internship, where I'm helping clients file for U Visas (a nonimmigrant status available to undocumented victims of qualifying crimes who cooperate with law enforcement in the investigation and prosecution of their abusers). Plan on doing a PT internship this fall in Family and Probate Court, which may involve helping clients obtain restraining orders/harassment protection orders. So yeah, I have pretty victim-centric experience that will be a huge red flag to PD offices.

Is the bias so strong the other way around? Will DA's offices be suspicious of people with defense experience?

jml8756
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby jml8756 » Tue Jul 09, 2013 11:12 am

The conventional wisdom is that PDs are much more skeptical of DA experience than the other way around.

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robin600
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby robin600 » Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:44 pm

When do applications open up for offices that hire pre-bar?

JRustle
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby JRustle » Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:48 am

are any of you all participating in firm-OCI? im absolutely dead set on being a PD but cant shake the nagging voice in the back of my head that i should at least put forth a good faith effort in securing a firm job.

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gdane
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby gdane » Thu Jul 11, 2013 9:52 am

So I'm not sure what to do. The Miami SAO interviews at my school in the fall. However, one of the AUSA's I work with worked at Miami SAO for a while and said he can send my resume and a good word in to the hiring dood. This is great news, but I'm not sure if my school would have an issue with me circumventing them and the OCI process. Do I ask the school or just use the "inside track" I've been given?

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Borhas
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby Borhas » Thu Jul 11, 2013 10:09 am

gdane wrote:So I'm not sure what to do. The Miami SAO interviews at my school in the fall. However, one of the AUSA's I work with worked at Miami SAO for a while and said he can send my resume and a good word in to the hiring dood. This is great news, but I'm not sure if my school would have an issue with me circumventing them and the OCI process. Do I ask the school or just use the "inside track" I've been given?


there is absolutely nothing wrong with "circumventing the OCI process"

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Thu Jul 11, 2013 10:43 am

JRustle wrote:are any of you all participating in firm-OCI? im absolutely dead set on being a PD but cant shake the nagging voice in the back of my head that i should at least put forth a good faith effort in securing a firm job.

If you're dead set on being a PD, why? If you spend your 2L summer working for a firm it will make it MUCH harder to get a PD job, than if you spend your summer working for a PD. (This isn't meant to sound judgy-judgy; I spent my 2L summer at a firm [am also not a PD]. Just curious about your reasoning.)

JRustle
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby JRustle » Thu Jul 11, 2013 11:08 am

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
JRustle wrote:are any of you all participating in firm-OCI? im absolutely dead set on being a PD but cant shake the nagging voice in the back of my head that i should at least put forth a good faith effort in securing a firm job.

If you're dead set on being a PD, why? If you spend your 2L summer working for a firm it will make it MUCH harder to get a PD job, than if you spend your summer working for a PD. (This isn't meant to sound judgy-judgy; I spent my 2L summer at a firm [am also not a PD]. Just curious about your reasoning.)


Wasn't very clear, I meant try and lock a firm job up then back out on it if/once I have gotten a PD position for the summer. Just slightly freaking out I guess.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Thu Jul 11, 2013 11:15 am

JRustle wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
JRustle wrote:are any of you all participating in firm-OCI? im absolutely dead set on being a PD but cant shake the nagging voice in the back of my head that i should at least put forth a good faith effort in securing a firm job.

If you're dead set on being a PD, why? If you spend your 2L summer working for a firm it will make it MUCH harder to get a PD job, than if you spend your summer working for a PD. (This isn't meant to sound judgy-judgy; I spent my 2L summer at a firm [am also not a PD]. Just curious about your reasoning.)


Wasn't very clear, I meant try and lock a firm job up then back out on it if/once I have gotten a PD position for the summer. Just slightly freaking out I guess.

Ah. Personally, I wouldn't do that - it seems to me that OCI is too much of a (psychological) commitment, you'd burn bridges unnecessarily, and that a good faith effort to find a PD (or PD-relevant) summer gig will get you something (assuming you're fine with no pay). But that's me, not saying what anyone else should do. (This is also moot for me by now, so feel free to ignore. I was just curious what you meant.)

seatown12
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby seatown12 » Thu Jul 11, 2013 3:13 pm

gdane wrote:So I'm not sure what to do. The Miami SAO interviews at my school in the fall. However, one of the AUSA's I work with worked at Miami SAO for a while and said he can send my resume and a good word in to the hiring dood. This is great news, but I'm not sure if my school would have an issue with me circumventing them and the OCI process. Do I ask the school or just use the "inside track" I've been given?

do whatever it takes to get the job, this is your life and you are paying the school not the other way around

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Borhas
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby Borhas » Thu Jul 11, 2013 3:24 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
JRustle wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
JRustle wrote:are any of you all participating in firm-OCI? im absolutely dead set on being a PD but cant shake the nagging voice in the back of my head that i should at least put forth a good faith effort in securing a firm job.

If you're dead set on being a PD, why? If you spend your 2L summer working for a firm it will make it MUCH harder to get a PD job, than if you spend your summer working for a PD. (This isn't meant to sound judgy-judgy; I spent my 2L summer at a firm [am also not a PD]. Just curious about your reasoning.)


Wasn't very clear, I meant try and lock a firm job up then back out on it if/once I have gotten a PD position for the summer. Just slightly freaking out I guess.

Ah. Personally, I wouldn't do that - it seems to me that OCI is too much of a (psychological) commitment, you'd burn bridges unnecessarily, and that a good faith effort to find a PD (or PD-relevant) summer gig will get you something (assuming you're fine with no pay). But that's me, not saying what anyone else should do. (This is also moot for me by now, so feel free to ignore. I was just curious what you meant.)


If you asked me a month before I got my PD job whether I would have gone for a big law firm if I had the chance I would have said yes. All in all I would much rather be a PD than a Big Lawyer, but I would much rather be a Big Lawyer than be unemployed with tons of debt. You owe it to yourself to keep your options open. And I don't think you necessarily close many doors with one summer at a Big Law firm, as long as you do a clinic afterwards.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Thu Jul 11, 2013 3:32 pm

Borhas wrote:If you asked me a month before I got my PD job whether I would have gone for a big law firm if I had the chance I would have said yes. All in all I would much rather be a PD than a Big Lawyer, but I would much rather be a Big Lawyer than be unemployed with tons of debt. You owe it to yourself to keep your options open. And I don't think you necessarily close many doors with one summer at a Big Law firm, as long as you do a clinic afterwards.

Yeah, this makes sense too. It's frustrating how difficult it is to juggle the hiring schedules for the different kinds of tracks.




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