Why do people favor NYC firms?

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Aston2412
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Re: Why do people favor NYC firms?

Postby Aston2412 » Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:36 pm

mebeSajid wrote:
He can't. He lives in Texas.


He might have you on brisket...that's about it.

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bgdddymtty
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Re: Why do people favor NYC firms?

Postby bgdddymtty » Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:49 pm

alumniguy wrote:Choose to have a car or not, those people are spending more on transportation than NYC dwellers - who almost universally choose not to have a car because public transportation is perfectly adequate and/or cabs are cheap.
I'm curious about this. How much do you NYC folks tend to spend per month on transpo? I know that Metrocards are relatively cheap, but how often do y'all take cabs and how much does your average ride cost?

I think that people in non-car cities tend to overestimate the cost of owning a car. Of course, if you insist on driving a brand-new luxury car you'll shell out a lot of cash. If you drive something that's still very nice, but has a few years on it, your costs go way down. For example, I just bought a 2004 Infiniti G35 sedan. It's gorgeous and loaded to the hilt. Including interest on the loan, depreciation, extended warranty, gas, insurance, maintenance, and registration, my total cost of ownership will run somewhere between $400-450 per month. (Two caveats: 1. I'm older/married, with stellar credit and a clean driving record, so my insurance/interest costs are less than what some people pay. 2. Notice that I'm talking about interest and depreciation rather than the full payment. A lot of people make the mistake of discounting the equity that they're building, whether in a car or a home.)

seriouslyinformative
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Re: Why do people favor NYC firms?

Postby seriouslyinformative » Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:51 pm

You're not considering parking in NYC, which is positively absurd.

And on top of that, gas in Manhattan is a good deal more expensive than in the surrounding areas. Almost bad enough to make you want to drive over to Jersey. And at least there you don't have to pump your own gas :lol:

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rayiner
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Re: Why do people favor NYC firms?

Postby rayiner » Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:52 pm

bgdddymtty wrote:
alumniguy wrote:Choose to have a car or not, those people are spending more on transportation than NYC dwellers - who almost universally choose not to have a car because public transportation is perfectly adequate and/or cabs are cheap.
I'm curious about this. How much do you NYC folks tend to spend per month on transpo? I know that Metrocards are relatively cheap, but how often do y'all take cabs and how much does your average ride cost?

I think that people in non-car cities tend to overestimate the cost of owning a car. Of course, if you insist on driving a brand-new luxury car you'll shell out a lot of cash. If you drive something that's still very nice, but has a few years on it, your costs go way down. For example, I just bought a 2004 Infiniti G35 sedan. It's gorgeous and loaded to the hilt. Including interest on the loan, depreciation, extended warranty, gas, insurance, maintenance, and registration, my total cost of ownership will run somewhere between $400-450 per month. (Two caveats: 1. I'm older/married, with stellar credit and a clean driving record, so my insurance/interest costs are less than what some people pay. 2. Notice that I'm talking about interest and depreciation rather than the full payment. A lot of people make the mistake of discounting the equity that they're building, whether in a car or a home.)


My car payment (3 year loan) on a 2-year old (at the time) Volvo with leather seats, etc, was about the same as what a monthly parking spot costs in many parts of Manhattan.

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paratactical
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Re: Why do people favor NYC firms?

Postby paratactical » Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:53 pm

bgdddymtty wrote:
alumniguy wrote:Choose to have a car or not, those people are spending more on transportation than NYC dwellers - who almost universally choose not to have a car because public transportation is perfectly adequate and/or cabs are cheap.
I'm curious about this. How much do you NYC folks tend to spend per month on transpo? I know that Metrocards are relatively cheap, but how often do y'all take cabs and how much does your average ride cost?

I took cabs a lot in NYC, but just like I don't count zipcar in Boston for transit, I didn't count my cab money in my transit costs in NYC. Times when you want a cab are luxuries.

But I took cabs at least once a weekend, if not more, and generally would budget aournd $20 for every cab ride, even though they were often less.

Aston2412
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Re: Why do people favor NYC firms?

Postby Aston2412 » Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:56 pm

Parking in DC is ridiculous. I can imagine parking in NYC being much worse.

That said, once you can afford it, why not get a car. And by afford it I mean save a bit and buy it outright. None of this installment based payment stuff. Most places will discount a car significantly if you pay for it in cash. Maybe not the Aston Martin I'm going to have someday...but most places.

Another caveat about DC is that cab fare isn't too bad. But then consider depending on where you go / when you go, you're probably going to have to cab home. Unlike NYC, DC trains stop running at 11:45 every day except Fri and Sat...

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Lwoods
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Re: Why do people favor NYC firms?

Postby Lwoods » Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:57 pm

bgdddymtty wrote:
alumniguy wrote:Choose to have a car or not, those people are spending more on transportation than NYC dwellers - who almost universally choose not to have a car because public transportation is perfectly adequate and/or cabs are cheap.
I'm curious about this. How much do you NYC folks tend to spend per month on transpo? I know that Metrocards are relatively cheap, but how often do y'all take cabs and how much does your average ride cost?

I think that people in non-car cities tend to overestimate the cost of owning a car. Of course, if you insist on driving a brand-new luxury car you'll shell out a lot of cash. If you drive something that's still very nice, but has a few years on it, your costs go way down. For example, I just bought a 2004 Infiniti G35 sedan. It's gorgeous and loaded to the hilt. Including interest on the loan, depreciation, extended warranty, gas, insurance, maintenance, and registration, my total cost of ownership will run somewhere between $400-450 per month. (Two caveats: 1. I'm older/married, with stellar credit and a clean driving record, so my insurance/interest costs are less than what some people pay. 2. Notice that I'm talking about interest and depreciation rather than the full payment. A lot of people make the mistake of discounting the equity that they're building, whether in a car or a home.)


$400/month is over twice what I paid in all transportation costs living in the Bronx (bumping up the metrocard cost to its current). If I lived in Manhattan, I'd be paying less because I could take trains later (since I didn't live within reasonable walking distance of the train, I had to take the $5.50 Express bus or a cab late at night because the local buses only ran once/hour).
$110/month for an unlimited metrocard. I'd usually spend $10-$15/week on a "cash" metrocard for the Express bus. Then $5-$10 here or there for a cab. Maybe $40 once every couple months for a cab from Manhattan to the Bronx.
If I worked late, my firm paid for my black car home (as well as for my dinner).
My metrocards at the time were $86/month and came out of my paycheck pre-tax. Assuming the current costs, one can easily get by with paying less than $200/month on transportation in NY. All you really need is your unlimited metrocard if you're staying within Manhattan, but assume that you'll want a cab every now and then.

seriouslyinformative
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Re: Why do people favor NYC firms?

Postby seriouslyinformative » Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:58 pm

Bad thing about NYC cabs is that it sometimes takes just as long as the subway and the ride is 4x the price because traffic is so bad.

Aston2412
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Re: Why do people favor NYC firms?

Postby Aston2412 » Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:59 pm

Lwoods wrote:If I worked late, my firm paid for my black car home (as well as for my dinner).



This is standard most places isn't it? I'd definitely be up for putting in a few extra billables to get a free meal and ride home.

alumniguy
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Re: Why do people favor NYC firms?

Postby alumniguy » Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:01 pm

bgdddymtty wrote:
alumniguy wrote:Choose to have a car or not, those people are spending more on transportation than NYC dwellers - who almost universally choose not to have a car because public transportation is perfectly adequate and/or cabs are cheap.
I'm curious about this. How much do you NYC folks tend to spend per month on transpo? I know that Metrocards are relatively cheap, but how often do y'all take cabs and how much does your average ride cost?

I think that people in non-car cities tend to overestimate the cost of owning a car. Of course, if you insist on driving a brand-new luxury car you'll shell out a lot of cash. If you drive something that's still very nice, but has a few years on it, your costs go way down. For example, I just bought a 2004 Infiniti G35 sedan. It's gorgeous and loaded to the hilt. Including interest on the loan, depreciation, extended warranty, gas, insurance, maintenance, and registration, my total cost of ownership will run somewhere between $400-450 per month. (Two caveats: 1. I'm older/married, with stellar credit and a clean driving record, so my insurance/interest costs are less than what some people pay. 2. Notice that I'm talking about interest and depreciation rather than the full payment. A lot of people make the mistake of discounting the equity that they're building, whether in a car or a home.)


I work in Midtown East and live downtown. I rarely, if ever, spend more than $10-15 on a cab, tip included. Although, I don't really take cabs all that often and it is even rarer for me to take a cab to a different borough or to UWS/UES.

While I don't budget, I would consider this to be a regular old transportation. I take cabs when I am in a hurry and/or when I am going out.
To pay $8-12 for an occasional cab ride is not a luxury in my opinion - it is a way of life if you live in NYC.

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Lwoods
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Re: Why do people favor NYC firms?

Postby Lwoods » Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:01 pm

seriouslyinformative wrote:Bad thing about NYC cabs is that it sometimes takes just as long as the subway and the ride is 4x the price because traffic is so bad.

That's why you really want to be smart about when you take cabs. If it's so crowded that a cab is going to take forever (think 2nd Avenue at 11pm on a Friday or Saturday night), walking and taking the subway is probably the smarter choice. It's cheaper, faster, and, because there are so many people out and about, still pretty safe.
Cabs are good for cross-town trips as those are more difficult on the subway or if you're wearing a long gown that you don't want to get dirty or stepped on in the subway.

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Lwoods
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Re: Why do people favor NYC firms?

Postby Lwoods » Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:04 pm

Aston2412 wrote:
Lwoods wrote:If I worked late, my firm paid for my black car home (as well as for my dinner).



This is standard most places isn't it? I'd definitely be up for putting in a few extra billables to get a free meal and ride home.


Yes; [I was told] it's a liability thing for the firm. They don't want anyone getting hurt on their way home from work late at night. My current company does this at our NY office as well, so it's not limited to law firms.

A car home/cab reimbursement is also provided for firm-sponsored social events, including the holiday party and SA dinners. I'm sure as an SA you'll get a breakdown of what can and cannot be expensed. If you don't, ask your secretary.

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bgdddymtty
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Re: Why do people favor NYC firms?

Postby bgdddymtty » Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:06 pm

ToTransferOrNot wrote:All of this rabblerabblerabble, I'd like to point out that, even if Chicago and NYC were exactly equal in every other way, the 1st-year associate in NYC pays about $10k more in taxes than the first-year in Chicago, even accounting for the newly raised IL income tax.

You all can keep your vibrant nightlife. I'll keep my extra cash.

(In before the guy-from-Texas comes in and trumps the Chicago card.)

Edit:

According to paycheckcity (admittedly a very rough estimate) for a first-year at $160k + 7.5k bonus, after-tax pay:

Chicago: $113,317
NYC: $104,084
Texas: $121,692

I was just going to post about this. I actually went and filled out tax returns with the following assumptions:
Single, no dependents
$160,000 salary
$7,000 student loan interest
Dallas associate owns his home and pays $15,000/year in mortgage interest and $6,000/year in property taxes
Dallas associate also deducts $6,000/year in sales tax from his federal income (you can deduct either state/local income taxes or sales taxes, but not both)

Total after-tax income:
NYC: $160,000 - 6,324 (SS) - 2,320 (Medicare) - 31,283.40 (Federal) - 9,966.75 (State) - 5,189.84 (City) = $104,916
Dallas: $160,000 - 6,324 (SS) - 2,320 (Medicare) - 27,967.25 (Federal) = $123,389
Difference: $18,473

Food for thought.

seriouslyinformative
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Re: Why do people favor NYC firms?

Postby seriouslyinformative » Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:07 pm

bgdddymtty wrote:
ToTransferOrNot wrote:All of this rabblerabblerabble, I'd like to point out that, even if Chicago and NYC were exactly equal in every other way, the 1st-year associate in NYC pays about $10k more in taxes than the first-year in Chicago, even accounting for the newly raised IL income tax.

You all can keep your vibrant nightlife. I'll keep my extra cash.

(In before the guy-from-Texas comes in and trumps the Chicago card.)

Edit:

According to paycheckcity (admittedly a very rough estimate) for a first-year at $160k + 7.5k bonus, after-tax pay:

Chicago: $113,317
NYC: $104,084
Texas: $121,692

I was just going to post about this. I actually went and filled out tax returns with the following assumptions:
Single, no dependents
$160,000 salary
$7,000 student loan interest
Dallas associate owns his home and pays $15,000/year in mortgage interest and $6,000/year in property taxes
Dallas associate also deducts $6,000/year in sales tax from his federal income (you can deduct either state/local income taxes or sales taxes, but not both)

Total after-tax income:
NYC: $160,000 - 6,324 (SS) - 2,320 (Medicare) - 31,283.40 (Federal) - 9,966.75 (State) - 5,189.84 (City) = $104,916
Dallas: $160,000 - 6,324 (SS) - 2,320 (Medicare) - 27,967.25 (Federal) = $123,389
Difference: $18,473

Food for thought.


Oh god, not this again.
We get it. NYC has a higher cost of living than other cities. THANK YOU FOR THIS NOVEL INFORMATION.

ToTransferOrNot
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Re: Why do people favor NYC firms?

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:11 pm

People have been talking about the cost with respect to things like rent, etc. From my experience (talking to friends etc. who are heading to NYC for the novelty of being in NYC,) a lot of non-New-Yorkers don't realize how incredibly ridiculous the NYC occupation tax is, and they actually do fail to take it into account when they're making their firm choices.

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bgdddymtty
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Re: Why do people favor NYC firms?

Postby bgdddymtty » Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:13 pm

Lwoods wrote:
bgdddymtty wrote:
alumniguy wrote:Choose to have a car or not, those people are spending more on transportation than NYC dwellers - who almost universally choose not to have a car because public transportation is perfectly adequate and/or cabs are cheap.
I'm curious about this. How much do you NYC folks tend to spend per month on transpo? I know that Metrocards are relatively cheap, but how often do y'all take cabs and how much does your average ride cost?

I think that people in non-car cities tend to overestimate the cost of owning a car. Of course, if you insist on driving a brand-new luxury car you'll shell out a lot of cash. If you drive something that's still very nice, but has a few years on it, your costs go way down. For example, I just bought a 2004 Infiniti G35 sedan. It's gorgeous and loaded to the hilt. Including interest on the loan, depreciation, extended warranty, gas, insurance, maintenance, and registration, my total cost of ownership will run somewhere between $400-450 per month. (Two caveats: 1. I'm older/married, with stellar credit and a clean driving record, so my insurance/interest costs are less than what some people pay. 2. Notice that I'm talking about interest and depreciation rather than the full payment. A lot of people make the mistake of discounting the equity that they're building, whether in a car or a home.)


$400/month is over twice what I paid in all transportation costs living in the Bronx (bumping up the metrocard cost to its current). If I lived in Manhattan, I'd be paying less because I could take trains later (since I didn't live within reasonable walking distance of the train, I had to take the $5.50 Express bus or a cab late at night because the local buses only ran once/hour).
$110/month for an unlimited metrocard. I'd usually spend $10-$15/week on a "cash" metrocard for the Express bus. Then $5-$10 here or there for a cab. Maybe $40 once every couple months for a cab from Manhattan to the Bronx.
If I worked late, my firm paid for my black car home (as well as for my dinner).
My metrocards at the time were $86/month and came out of my paycheck pre-tax. Assuming the current costs, one can easily get by with paying less than $200/month on transportation in NY. All you really need is your unlimited metrocard if you're staying within Manhattan, but assume that you'll want a cab every now and then.

That's good to know. It's a drop in the bucket compared to differences in taxes, housing, etc., but it should still be factored into any fair comparison.

seriouslyinformative
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Re: Why do people favor NYC firms?

Postby seriouslyinformative » Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:13 pm

ToTransferOrNot wrote:People have been talking about the cost with respect to things like rent, etc. From my experience (talking to friends etc. who are heading to NYC for the novelty of being in NYC,) a lot of non-New-Yorkers don't realize how incredibly ridiculous the NYC occupation tax is, and they actually do fail to take it into account when they're making their firm choices.


They fail to take many things into account. Another example: Salary advance vs. a stipend.

alumniguy
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Re: Why do people favor NYC firms?

Postby alumniguy » Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:14 pm

ToTransferOrNot wrote:People have been talking about the cost with respect to things like rent, etc. From my experience (talking to friends etc. who are heading to NYC for the novelty of being in NYC,) a lot of non-New-Yorkers don't realize how incredibly ridiculous the NYC occupation tax is, and they actually do fail to take it into account when they're making their firm choices.


This topic has been debated to death in other threads.

Additional food for thought...look at salaries other than 1st year salaries and include bonus amounts in your calculations.

ToTransferOrNot
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Re: Why do people favor NYC firms?

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:20 pm

alumniguy wrote:
ToTransferOrNot wrote:People have been talking about the cost with respect to things like rent, etc. From my experience (talking to friends etc. who are heading to NYC for the novelty of being in NYC,) a lot of non-New-Yorkers don't realize how incredibly ridiculous the NYC occupation tax is, and they actually do fail to take it into account when they're making their firm choices.


This topic has been debated to death in other threads.

Additional food for thought...look at salaries other than 1st year salaries and include bonus amounts in your calculations.


The big Chicago firms pay approximately the same bonuses (and exactly the same base - I realize that things get a little compressed for the Texas firms) as the big New York firms, particularly in the range of years most relevant to the overwhelming majority of people (i.e., those who don't make partner). There's no appreciable difference, aside from outliers like WLRK, Bartlitt/Boies/Susman/etc., higher-billing folks at non-lockstep firms, and so on. Of course, once you get into the higher class years, NYC begins to look even less attractive, since you lose more of your increased salary to the higher taxes, which puts you further behind your counterparts elsewhere.

Once you make partner, things change significantly, but that impacts an awfully small portion of people.

Also, this isn't even factoring in the increased interest NYC-based folks pay on student loans due to having less money to sock into their loans.

alumniguy
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Re: Why do people favor NYC firms?

Postby alumniguy » Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:25 pm

ToTransferOrNot wrote:
alumniguy wrote:
ToTransferOrNot wrote:People have been talking about the cost with respect to things like rent, etc. From my experience (talking to friends etc. who are heading to NYC for the novelty of being in NYC,) a lot of non-New-Yorkers don't realize how incredibly ridiculous the NYC occupation tax is, and they actually do fail to take it into account when they're making their firm choices.


This topic has been debated to death in other threads.

Additional food for thought...look at salaries other than 1st year salaries and include bonus amounts in your calculations.


The big Chicago firms pay approximately the same bonuses (and exactly the same base - I realize that things get a little compressed for the Texas firms) as the big New York firms, particularly in the range of years most relevant to the overwhelming majority of people (i.e., those who don't make partner). There's no appreciable difference, aside from outliers like WLRK, Bartlitt/Boies/Susman/etc., higher-billing folks at non-lockstep firms, and so on. Of course, once you get into the higher class years, NYC begins to look even less attractive, since you lose more of your increased salary to the higher taxes, which puts you further behind your counterparts elsewhere.

Once you make partner, things change significantly, but that impacts an awfully small portion of people.

Also, this isn't even factoring in the increased interest NYC-based folks pay on student loans due to having less money to sock into their loans.


I haven't really been following compensation in other cities that much in the past few years, but I was under the impression that there is significant salary compression in Texas biglaw. I may be wrong on this though.

Chicago, Boston, LA, San Fran, yea - they all get to take home more than us NYC lawyers, but that is just a fact of life. I'd love more money in my pocket at the end of the day, but I am very satisfied with NYC and while I don't live extravagantly, I have plenty of cash to do much of everything that I want.

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paratactical
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Re: Why do people favor NYC firms?

Postby paratactical » Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:26 pm

alumniguy wrote:Chicago, Boston, LA, San Fran, yea - they all get to take home more than us NYC lawyers, but that is just a fact of life. I'd love more money in my pocket at the end of the day, but I am very satisfied with NYC and while I don't live extravagantly, I have plenty of cash to do much of everything that I want.

I can only speak to Boston, but they also work less hours.

alumniguy
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Re: Why do people favor NYC firms?

Postby alumniguy » Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:34 pm

paratactical wrote:
alumniguy wrote:Chicago, Boston, LA, San Fran, yea - they all get to take home more than us NYC lawyers, but that is just a fact of life. I'd love more money in my pocket at the end of the day, but I am very satisfied with NYC and while I don't live extravagantly, I have plenty of cash to do much of everything that I want.

I can only speak to Boston, but they also work less hours.


[In the style of seriouslyinformative] Yes we understand...YOU HATE NYC

BeenDidThat
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Re: Why do people favor NYC firms?

Postby BeenDidThat » Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:34 pm

paratactical wrote:
alumniguy wrote:Chicago, Boston, LA, San Fran, yea - they all get to take home more than us NYC lawyers, but that is just a fact of life. I'd love more money in my pocket at the end of the day, but I am very satisfied with NYC and while I don't live extravagantly, I have plenty of cash to do much of everything that I want.

I can only speak to Boston, but they also work less hours.


No, they don't.

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bk1
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Re: Why do people favor NYC firms?

Postby bk1 » Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:36 pm

BeenDidThat wrote:
paratactical wrote:
alumniguy wrote:Chicago, Boston, LA, San Fran, yea - they all get to take home more than us NYC lawyers, but that is just a fact of life. I'd love more money in my pocket at the end of the day, but I am very satisfied with NYC and while I don't live extravagantly, I have plenty of cash to do much of everything that I want.

I can only speak to Boston, but they also work less hours.


No, they don't.


Oh snap.

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paratactical
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Re: Why do people favor NYC firms?

Postby paratactical » Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:36 pm

alumniguy wrote:
paratactical wrote:
alumniguy wrote:Chicago, Boston, LA, San Fran, yea - they all get to take home more than us NYC lawyers, but that is just a fact of life. I'd love more money in my pocket at the end of the day, but I am very satisfied with NYC and while I don't live extravagantly, I have plenty of cash to do much of everything that I want.

I can only speak to Boston, but they also work less hours.


[In the style of seriouslyinformative] Yes we understand...YOU HATE NYC

No, I actually don't. It was a fabulous place to live for a period of time and I definitely enjoyed it, but it's not the end all be all mecca of living you're attempting to make it out to be. See up this page where I praised NYC women.

BeenDidThat wrote:
paratactical wrote:I can only speak to Boston, but they also work less hours.


No, they don't.

Ugh. I always fuck that stupid rule up.




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