Why do people favor NYC firms?

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paratactical
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Re: Why do people favor NYC firms?

Postby paratactical » Fri Jun 10, 2011 9:24 am

NYC Law wrote:
rayiner wrote:
paratactical wrote:
flexityflex86 wrote:People who live in New York Cirty think everybody wants to live in New York City. Thread.

FTFY


I mean at the end of the day this is my problem with it. I don't begrudge people who want the bustle and activity if New York. Some people are genuinely energized by the crowd and all the things to do. What irks me is that some people cannot comprehend that others might prefer something else. That they might prefer a clean, quiet and spacious neighborhood with a view of a lake. A huge part of the country would not want to live in NY (the hippies in Portland, the down to earth Midwesterners in Chicago). The people who want it... already live there.


Maybe it's just my ADD speaking, but serene environments are unbearably boring.

Did your ADD prevent you from being able to comprehend the point in the post you quoted?

seriouslyinformative
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Re: Why do people favor NYC firms?

Postby seriouslyinformative » Fri Jun 10, 2011 9:25 am

Maybe it's just my ADD speaking, but serene environments are unbearably boring.


To each their own. Just understand that NYC, especially Manhattan, has a high barrier of entry that only people who seriously want to live in NYC should endure. I'm trying to rent my first apartment in NYC, and I'm being asked for up to $20,000 up front. $20,000. Swallow that for a second. And I'm on the lucky side. I fulfill the income requirements, I have good credit, etc. With all that, I still have to pay so much. One of my friends, not in a similarly fortunate financial situation, was forced to front the entire first year's rent. swallow that for a second.

Thinking of using a guarantor? Think again. Guarantor is required to make 80x the rent of the apartment.

This stuff is absolutely senseless. In NYC, you're almost always going to pay a broker fee (either up front or it'll be built into your rent). In NYC, you are expected to start the apartment hunt around one to two weeks before move-in. This stuff isn't really commonplace in other cities.

And it's stuff like this that makes NYC senseless. Just a senseless waste of money. You seriously have to ask yourself if the "happiness" of living in NYC is worth the money you're going to lose constantly just from living here.

Mr.JD2015
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Re: Why do people favor NYC firms?

Postby Mr.JD2015 » Fri Jun 10, 2011 9:32 am

What is it like to live in NYC on a regular basis? I was born in raised in DC and would like to attend law school in the city.

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paratactical
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Re: Why do people favor NYC firms?

Postby paratactical » Fri Jun 10, 2011 9:32 am

Mr.JD2015 wrote:What is it like to live in NYC on a regular basis? I was born in raised in DC and would like to attend law school in the city.

It's totally just like Seinfeld.

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NYC Law
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Re: Why do people favor NYC firms?

Postby NYC Law » Fri Jun 10, 2011 9:34 am

paratactical wrote:
NYC Law wrote:Maybe it's just my ADD speaking, but serene environments are unbearably boring.

Did your ADD prevent you from being able to comprehend the point in the post you quoted?


Did your cantankerousness prevent you from understanding the personally-referenced context of my post?

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paratactical
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Re: Why do people favor NYC firms?

Postby paratactical » Fri Jun 10, 2011 9:36 am

NYC Law wrote:
paratactical wrote:
NYC Law wrote:Maybe it's just my ADD speaking, but serene environments are unbearably boring.

Did your ADD prevent you from being able to comprehend the point in the post you quoted?


Did your cantankerousness prevent you from understanding the personally-referenced context of my post?

Oh snap. Someone has a thesaurus.

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NYC Law
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Re: Why do people favor NYC firms?

Postby NYC Law » Fri Jun 10, 2011 9:37 am

paratactical wrote:
NYC Law wrote:
paratactical wrote:
NYC Law wrote:Maybe it's just my ADD speaking, but serene environments are unbearably boring.

Did your ADD prevent you from being able to comprehend the point in the post you quoted?


Did your cantankerousness prevent you from understanding the personally-referenced context of my post?

Oh snap. Someone has a thesaurus.


5th Edition Beeyotch.

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bgdddymtty
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Re: Why do people favor NYC firms?

Postby bgdddymtty » Fri Jun 10, 2011 9:57 am

seriouslyinformative wrote:On average, for some types of legal work, firms in NYC provide superior training and offer a brand name that keeps open many doors in the long run. These doors range from public interest, government, in-house positions, to positions in other firms in other markets. Other firms in other markets have no trouble taking such lawyers because they recognize the brand.

The vast majority of associates who enter these NYC megafirms already have their own end-date. They know when they plan to leave before they even set foot in the door. I know quite a few who already have the date circled in their calendars. They're just eagerly crossing out days until that date comes.
This is absolutely credited. I find it really funny, though, that so many of the "make some huge cash in BigLaw for a few years, then go do something else" crowd aim for NYC. Given the taxes and cost of living associated with New York, the BigLaw associate on the 3-year (or even 5-year) plan isn't likely to end up with much to show for it other than some fun nightlife and a nice resume.

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paratactical
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Re: Why do people favor NYC firms?

Postby paratactical » Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:00 am

bgdddymtty wrote:
seriouslyinformative wrote:On average, for some types of legal work, firms in NYC provide superior training and offer a brand name that keeps open many doors in the long run. These doors range from public interest, government, in-house positions, to positions in other firms in other markets. Other firms in other markets have no trouble taking such lawyers because they recognize the brand.

The vast majority of associates who enter these NYC megafirms already have their own end-date. They know when they plan to leave before they even set foot in the door. I know quite a few who already have the date circled in their calendars. They're just eagerly crossing out days until that date comes.
This is absolutely credited. I find it really funny, though, that so many of the "make some huge cash in BigLaw for a few years, then go do something else" crowd aim for NYC. Given the taxes and cost of living associated with New York, the BigLaw associate on the 3-year (or even 5-year) plan isn't likely to end up with much to show for it other than some fun nightlife and a nice resume.

I think you probably get better exit options. Granted, I did biglaw paralegal stuff in NYC, not attorney, but when I had put in a few years and sent my resumes out, I was a hot commodity and got to be pretty demanding about what I wanted.

keg411
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Re: Why do people favor NYC firms?

Postby keg411 » Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:04 am

rayiner wrote:
paratactical wrote:
flexityflex86 wrote:People who live in New York Cirty think everybody wants to live in New York City. Thread.

FTFY


I mean at the end of the day this is my problem with it. I don't begrudge people who want the bustle and activity if New York. Some people are genuinely energized by the crowd and all the things to do. What irks me is that some people cannot comprehend that others might prefer something else. That they might prefer a clean, quiet and spacious neighborhood with a view of a lake. A huge part of the country would not want to live in NY (the hippies in Portland, the down to earth Midwesterners in Chicago). The people who want it... already live there.


That's what the suburbs are for. Plenty of people commute from parts of CT/Westchester/NJ/Long Island/etc and those places all have what you are looking for. Yes, commuting kind of sucks, but it's far from the end of the world. Personally, I love going out in the city, but I love coming home to the suburbs. I'd bet a good portion of partners and senior associates live in the suburbs (especially married ones). No one is holding a knife to your throat and telling you that you HAVE to live in NYC to work there. If you really despise living in NYC, explore outside options and get used to public transit.

Since you're a 2L, I'm presuming you're stuck there unless you try 3L OCI and see if you can pick up something else.
For everyone else -- if you really really really don't want NYC, don't bid there. But don't think it's absurd or crazy other people might want to work there and might have reasons.
Last edited by keg411 on Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

seriouslyinformative
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Re: Why do people favor NYC firms?

Postby seriouslyinformative » Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:05 am

No one is holding a knife to your throat and telling you that you HAVE to live in NYC to work there.


Your post makes sense, but it really depends on what stage of your life you're in. A single person, for example, should absolutely not look to live in the suburbs or Jersey.

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Re: Why do people favor NYC firms?

Postby keg411 » Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:09 am

seriouslyinformative wrote:
No one is holding a knife to your throat and telling you that you HAVE to live in NYC to work there.


Your post makes sense, but it really depends on what stage of your life you're in. A single person, for example, should absolutely not look to live in the suburbs or Jersey.


But Ray isn't single and his plans appear to be for himself and his girlfriend. I was more responding to his concerns about wanting open space and grass and lakes and such. I hope the last part of my post clarified that I was more trying to help alleviate Ray's concerns about living/working in NYC than anything else since he's said his SA is there.

I think a single person could do okay in Hoboken (for the fratties)/Brooklyn (for the hipsters), though if said person really doesn't want to live in Manhattan.

Mr.JD2015
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Re: Why do people favor NYC firms?

Postby Mr.JD2015 » Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:10 am

paratactical wrote:
Mr.JD2015 wrote:What is it like to live in NYC on a regular basis? I was born in raised in DC and would like to attend law school in the city.

It's totally just like Seinfeld.


I nevered watched Seinfeld......pros and cons of NYC please

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kwais
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Re: Why do people favor NYC firms?

Postby kwais » Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:25 am

seriouslyinformative wrote:
Maybe it's just my ADD speaking, but serene environments are unbearably boring.


To each their own. Just understand that NYC, especially Manhattan, has a high barrier of entry that only people who seriously want to live in NYC should endure. I'm trying to rent my first apartment in NYC, and I'm being asked for up to $20,000 up front. $20,000. Swallow that for a second. And I'm on the lucky side. I fulfill the income requirements, I have good credit, etc. With all that, I still have to pay so much. One of my friends, not in a similarly fortunate financial situation, was forced to front the entire first year's rent. swallow that for a second.

Thinking of using a guarantor? Think again. Guarantor is required to make 80x the rent of the apartment.

This stuff is absolutely senseless. In NYC, you're almost always going to pay a broker fee (either up front or it'll be built into your rent). In NYC, you are expected to start the apartment hunt around one to two weeks before move-in. This stuff isn't really commonplace in other cities.

And it's stuff like this that makes NYC senseless. Just a senseless waste of money. You seriously have to ask yourself if the "happiness" of living in NYC is worth the money you're going to lose constantly just from living here.


lolwut! This is how this post sounds to me. "I wanted to lease a car. Did you know that to rent a Bugatti you must make a million dollars a year? Senseless! Senseless I say!" What kind of apartment are you "renting" in NYC bro? I was looking in NY and found apartments that wanted about 2k down.

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Re: Why do people favor NYC firms?

Postby sundance95 » Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:26 am

Mr.JD2015 wrote:
paratactical wrote:
Mr.JD2015 wrote:What is it like to live in NYC on a regular basis? I was born in raised in DC and would like to attend law school in the city.

It's totally just like Seinfeld.


I nevered watched Seinfeld......pros and cons of NYC please

Did you even read the last six pages of this thread?

Mr.JD2015
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Re: Why do people favor NYC firms?

Postby Mr.JD2015 » Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:32 am

@sundance95
no lol...i will do that now

seriouslyinformative
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Re: Why do people favor NYC firms?

Postby seriouslyinformative » Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:39 am

lolwut! This is how this post sounds to me. "I wanted to lease a car. Did you know that to rent a Bugatti you must make a million dollars a year? Senseless! Senseless I say!" What kind of apartment are you "renting" in NYC bro? I was looking in NY and found apartments that wanted about 2k down.


I'm not sure you're comprehending my post. I'm not saying the *rent* I'm paying is $20,000. I'm saying the upfront costs for the apartment is $20,000. A typical renter in NYC can expect to pay first month's rent, a security deposit, and a broker's fee (and if the broker is not a fee-broker, then the fee will just be added to your monthly rent and spread evenly throughout the term of the lease). These requirements are for renters with good credit history, pay stubs, work history, income to satisfy the income requirements (typically, your income has to be 40x-45x the rent), and tax returns.

If you deviate from that ideal renter, you can expect to pay more up front. Landlords may ask for multiple months' security, or multiple months' rent, and that stuff adds up. A $2,500 apartment, for an ideal renter (i.e., not most people on TLS who are coming straight from college/law school), you can expect to pay $2,500+$2,500+$4500. For an ideal renter, that's $9,500. Since most of you all do not have established credit histories and do not have established work histories, landlords will ask for more. For the landlord who asks for two months' rent and two months' security, it comes out to: $2,500+$2,500+$2,500+$2,500+$4,500. That's $14,500.

So just because the rent on a place seems low, that doesn't mean that your up front costs will be low. For most people moving to NYC, even though $2,500 seems like a nice good bargain for an apartment in Manhattan, few can drop $10,000 in one sitting. Fewer are ideal renters, and therefore they must drop even more money on the spot. Ironically, they are even less likely to be able to do that because it was their financial situation that made them less than ideal renters to begin with.

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Re: Why do people favor NYC firms?

Postby kwais » Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:49 am

seriouslyinformative wrote:
lolwut! This is how this post sounds to me. "I wanted to lease a car. Did you know that to rent a Bugatti you must make a million dollars a year? Senseless! Senseless I say!" What kind of apartment are you "renting" in NYC bro? I was looking in NY and found apartments that wanted about 2k down.


I'm not sure you're comprehending my post. I'm not saying the *rent* I'm paying is $20,000. I'm saying the upfront costs for the apartment is $20,000. A typical renter in NYC can expect to pay first month's rent, a security deposit, and a broker's fee (and if the broker is not a fee-broker, then the fee will just be added to your monthly rent and spread evenly throughout the term of the lease). These requirements are for renters with good credit history, pay stubs, work history, income to satisfy the income requirements (typically, your income has to be 40x-45x the rent), and tax returns.

If you deviate from that ideal renter, you can expect to pay more up front. Landlords may ask for multiple months' security, or multiple months' rent, and that stuff adds up. A $2,500 apartment, for an ideal renter (i.e., not most people on TLS who are coming straight from college/law school), you can expect to pay $2,500+$2,500+$4500. For an ideal renter, that's $9,500. Since most of you all do not have established credit histories and do not have established work histories, landlords will ask for more. For the landlord who asks for two months' rent and two months' security, it comes out to: $2,500+$2,500+$2,500+$2,500+$4,500. That's $14,500.

So just because the rent on a place seems low, that doesn't mean that your up front costs will be low. For most people moving to NYC, even though $2,500 seems like a nice good bargain for an apartment in Manhattan, few can drop $10,000 in one sitting. Fewer are ideal renters, and therefore they must drop even more money on the spot. Ironically, they are even less likely to be able to do that because it was their financial situation that made them less than ideal renters to begin with.


What neighborhood are you renting in?

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Re: Why do people favor NYC firms?

Postby seriouslyinformative » Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:57 am

What neighborhood are you renting in?


Haven't signed the lease yet, but I'm open to any area on the 4,5,6 south of Midtown and north of the Financial District.

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Re: Why do people favor NYC firms?

Postby kwais » Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:59 am

seriouslyinformative wrote:
What neighborhood are you renting in?


Haven't signed the lease yet, but I'm open to any area on the 4,5,6 south of Midtown and north of the Financial District.


well, that includes some pretty posh areas. Sorry for the tone of my original post, but the fact is that you can do much better in Washington Heights or something that involves more of a commute. Also, y u no use "no broker" craigslist?

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Re: Why do people favor NYC firms?

Postby keg411 » Fri Jun 10, 2011 11:07 am

I was going to say, I know people who rent in NYC and the requirement was like one month rent for a deposit, not $20,000 or a full year or whatever. WTF buildings are you and your friends looking at??? Because they sound like the wrong ones for entry-level NYC apartments.

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Re: Why do people favor NYC firms?

Postby seriouslyinformative » Fri Jun 10, 2011 11:23 am

Also, y u no use "no broker" craigslist?


The fact that you even suggest craigslist for NYC apt hunting means you don't know what you're talking about. Craigslist is a wasteland.

keg411 wrote:I was going to say, I know people who rent in NYC and the requirement was like one month rent for a deposit, not $20,000 or a full year or whatever. WTF buildings are you and your friends looking at??? Because they sound like the wrong ones for entry-level NYC apartments.


Really depends on the type of building, etc. But typically, you will pay one month rent and a (refundable) security deposit. There's no such thing as not paying a fee. That's just the way it is for Manhattan.

keg411
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Re: Why do people favor NYC firms?

Postby keg411 » Fri Jun 10, 2011 11:38 am

seriouslyinformative wrote:
Also, y u no use "no broker" craigslist?


The fact that you even suggest craigslist for NYC apt hunting means you don't know what you're talking about. Craigslist is a wasteland.

keg411 wrote:I was going to say, I know people who rent in NYC and the requirement was like one month rent for a deposit, not $20,000 or a full year or whatever. WTF buildings are you and your friends looking at??? Because they sound like the wrong ones for entry-level NYC apartments.


Really depends on the type of building, etc. But typically, you will pay one month rent and a (refundable) security deposit. There's no such thing as not paying a fee. That's just the way it is for Manhattan.


I dunno, I haven't lived there. Just no one I know who lives there ever complained about the broker's fee/deposits/etc. But I also think one of my friends didn't use a broker and just negotiated with the building herself (and ended up getting herself a better deal than most; but she's in sales and is probably the best negotiator I know).

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Re: Why do people favor NYC firms?

Postby danidancer » Fri Jun 10, 2011 11:40 am

seriouslyinformative wrote:The fact that you even suggest craigslist for NYC apt hunting means you don't know what you're talking about. Craigslist is a wasteland.


False. Craigslist is awesome and my friends and I have all found several nice, cheap NYC apts on there over the years - the scams are very, very easy to identify. The NYC housing market is not rocket science, and $20,000 up front is absurd. You just have to put in the leg work and be ready to pounce when you see something you like.

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rayiner
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Re: Why do people favor NYC firms?

Postby rayiner » Fri Jun 10, 2011 11:40 am

keg411 wrote:
rayiner wrote:
paratactical wrote:
flexityflex86 wrote:People who live in New York Cirty think everybody wants to live in New York City. Thread.

FTFY


I mean at the end of the day this is my problem with it. I don't begrudge people who want the bustle and activity if New York. Some people are genuinely energized by the crowd and all the things to do. What irks me is that some people cannot comprehend that others might prefer something else. That they might prefer a clean, quiet and spacious neighborhood with a view of a lake. A huge part of the country would not want to live in NY (the hippies in Portland, the down to earth Midwesterners in Chicago). The people who want it... already live there.


That's what the suburbs are for. Plenty of people commute from parts of CT/Westchester/NJ/Long Island/etc and those places all have what you are looking for. Yes, commuting kind of sucks, but it's far from the end of the world. Personally, I love going out in the city, but I love coming home to the suburbs. I'd bet a good portion of partners and senior associates live in the suburbs (especially married ones). No one is holding a knife to your throat and telling you that you HAVE to live in NYC to work there. If you really despise living in NYC, explore outside options and get used to public transit.

Since you're a 2L, I'm presuming you're stuck there unless you try 3L OCI and see if you can pick up something else.
For everyone else -- if you really really really don't want NYC, don't bid there. But don't think it's absurd or crazy other people might want to work there and might have reasons.


NJ and Long Island City are heavily polluted and I'm not comfortable living there. I need to look into Brooklyn/Astoria though. The suburbs are... suburbs. I don't like suburbs. I like livable cities (Portland, Chicago, Atlanta). Places where you can actually stick around instead of retreating to the 'burbs as soon as you want to have kids.

Commutes blow. My commute is less than 30 min each way and it's the most terrible stressful part of my day. One of the big advantages of a place like Chicago is that as a lawyer you can afford to live in places where you don't have a commute. K&E Chicago attorneys can literally stroll to their office in the mornings from their awesome apartments which they pay $2k a month for. Even if you'd be bored stiff in Streeterville, you gotta admit that there is something compelling about that.

You're right nobody is holding a knife to my throat. I turned down offers in Chicago, DC, and Atlanta (all cities I like better) because I really liked the firm I'm at. My point, in the context of this thread, is not that I'm forced to work in NY, but rather that I, and I'd imagine a number of other people, came to a NY firm because of the job opportunities, not the city itself.




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