Why do people favor NYC firms? Forum

[rayiner]

You said a 35 minute commute is not long and you doubt people in other cities have such short commutes. I gave you a graph that showed that it's longer than the average commute in any other city (people live out in the burbs in other cities too) by a good margin. So how is your response relevant?

Manhattan's population, if taken separately as a city, increases 87% during the day as compared to night. That is the highest increase of any other city.

I see your point, but it isn't relevant. The 35 minutes isn't coming from the average Manhattan commute, it's a number that you picked. You said it's not long and you doubt that people in other cities have such a short commute. I gave you data that suggested that people in other cities have shorter commutes than 35 minutes.

EDIT: Also, it doesn't make sense to count Manhattan as its own city unless you count the urban cores of the other cities as their own cities.

[alumniguy]

This. This a million times over. Those of you taking the pro-NYC side in the debate, take a step back and look at what you're saying. Working 60-80 hours per week, making what any reasonable person would consider a huge salary, affords you a mediocre one-bedroom apartment. Really? This is what you want out of life?

Contrast that with living/working in, say, Dallas. Same starting salary, possibly lower billable expectations, and for the same price and with the same <30 minute commute, you could own a 3000-4000 square foot house (with a pool!) instead of renting a 600 square foot cracker box (with rats!). Or, if you still want to be a townie, <$2500 will get you a super-spacious, ultra-modern luxury flat. Never mind that you could probably pay for either of these options with just the money you'd save in state and city income taxes.

But you guys have "vibrancy." You can't put a price on that.

To each their own. Who in their right mind needs a 3,000+ square foot house? To do what with? Have 5 children? Buy furniture just to make the place look like a house? Who wants to clean such a place. To me, I don't really understand the desire to have a big house. Of course I want more than a studio, but a nice 1 bedroom with a study is perfectly desirable to me.

I think what it really boils down to is whether you are (i) an experience oriented person or (ii) a goods oriented person. I find that people who would prefer to spend $150 on dinner versus $150 on a new pair of jeans or some other item, prefer to live in cities where you can get great experiences all the time. That just isn't the case for Dallas. Sure it has some fun things to do here and there, but for me, I would get bored very quickly. I like going to new restaurants, seeing diversity, experiencing the hustle of a large city, going to concerts, taking a train out to the beach occasionally, going hiking, traveling to other big cities like Boston, Philadelphia, or DC for the weekend. That stuff is all very difficult to do from Dallas but so easy from NYC.

[alumniguy]

You said a 35 minute commute is not long and you doubt people in other cities have such short commutes. I gave you a graph that showed that it's longer than the average commute in any other city (people live out in the burbs in other cities too) by a good margin. So how is your response relevant?

Manhattan's population, if taken separately as a city, increases 87% during the day as compared to night. That is the highest increase of any other city.

I see your point, but it isn't relevant. The 35 minutes isn't coming from the average Manhattan commute, it's a number that you picked. You said it's not long and you doubt that people in other cities have such a short commute. I gave you data that suggested that people in other cities have shorter commutes than 35 minutes.

Perhaps I should have been clearer earlier. 35 minutes was your commute time, which is why I picked that time. The graph you provided gave commute times for cities like Riverside, CA and Baltimore, MD - not exactly cities teeming with corporate lawyers. But yes, Chicago has an average commute time of 32.7 minutes compared to 38.4 minutes.

Regardless, I should have said that most corporate lawyers working in biglaw likely don't have shorter commutes.

[rayiner]

This. This a million times over. Those of you taking the pro-NYC side in the debate, take a step back and look at what you're saying. Working 60-80 hours per week, making what any reasonable person would consider a huge salary, affords you a mediocre one-bedroom apartment. Really? This is what you want out of life?

Contrast that with living/working in, say, Dallas. Same starting salary, possibly lower billable expectations, and for the same price and with the same <30 minute commute, you could own a 3000-4000 square foot house (with a pool!) instead of renting a 600 square foot cracker box (with rats!). Or, if you still want to be a townie, <$2500 will get you a super-spacious, ultra-modern luxury flat. Never mind that you could probably pay for either of these options with just the money you'd save in state and city income taxes.

But you guys have "vibrancy." You can't put a price on that.

To each their own. Who in their right mind needs a 3,000+ square foot house? To do what with? Have 5 children? Buy furniture just to make the place look like a house? Who wants to clean such a place. To me, I don't really understand the desire to have a big house. Of course I want more than a studio, but a nice 1 bedroom with a study is perfectly desirable to me.

I think what it really boils down to is whether you are (i) an experience oriented person or (ii) a goods oriented person. I find that people who would prefer to spend $150 on dinner versus $150 on a new pair of jeans or some other item, prefer to live in cities where you can get great experiences all the time. That just isn't the case for Dallas. Sure it has some fun things to do here and there, but for me, I would get bored very quickly. I like going to new restaurants, seeing diversity, experiencing the hustle of a large city, going to concerts, taking a train out to the beach occasionally, going hiking, traveling to other big cities like Boston, Philadelphia, or DC for the weekend. That stuff is all very difficult to do from Dallas but so easy from NYC.

What about the "experience" of taking a shower every morning in a nice, spacious bathroom, or cooking in a modern, spacious kitchen?

[quakeroats]

Really? This is what you want out of life?

Contrast that with living/working in, say, Dallas. Same starting salary, possibly lower billable expectations, and for the same price and with the same <30 minute commute, you could own a 3000-4000 square foot house (with a pool!) instead of renting a 600 square foot cracker box (with rats!). Or, if you still want to be a townie, <$2500 will get you a super-spacious, ultra-modern luxury flat. Never mind that you could probably pay for either of these options with just the money you'd save in state and city income taxes.

But you guys have "vibrancy." You can't put a price on that.

Thankfully, life doesn't usually end during the first year at a NYC firm. How many Michelin-rated restaurants are in Dallas? How many world world-class museums? Opera houses? Coffee bars?

But hey, I'm sure you'll have a nice McMansion and your choice of Ruth's Chris, Morton's, or The Capital Grille.

[ndirish2010]

Really? This is what you want out of life?

Contrast that with living/working in, say, Dallas. Same starting salary, possibly lower billable expectations, and for the same price and with the same <30 minute commute, you could own a 3000-4000 square foot house (with a pool!) instead of renting a 600 square foot cracker box (with rats!). Or, if you still want to be a townie, <$2500 will get you a super-spacious, ultra-modern luxury flat. Never mind that you could probably pay for either of these options with just the money you'd save in state and city income taxes.

But you guys have "vibrancy." You can't put a price on that.

Thankfully, life doesn't usually end during the first year at a NYC firm. How many Michelin-rated restaurants are in Dallas? How many world world-class museums? Opera houses? Coffee bars?

But hey, I'm sure you'll have a nice McMansion and your choice of Ruth's Chris, Morton's, or the Capital Grille.

A lot of people couldn't care less about that.

[Anonymous User]

I just moved to Gramercy. My commute is 15 minutes tops. Studios and 1BRs are affordable on a biglaw salary, as are other areas with great commutes. Those who complain typically have sky-high demands (luxury condo-like rentals with a doorman, etc.). But my apartment is plenty fine. If you don't have unreasonably high living standards, you should be fine. And yes, expecting there to be affordable new condo-like buildings in the center of Manhattan is unreasonable. If you want to be that pampered, go to Williamsburg and stop complaining.

LOL @ "sky-high" demands. Modern finishes and a gym on a $160k salary? Ridiculous demands!

In any case it's not the expectations, it's the comparison. Chicago biglawyers are living in brand new luxury apartments by the lake a 10 minute walk from work. New York biglawers are living in worse accomodations than I do as a law student in Chicago.

This. This a million times over. Those of you taking the pro-NYC side in the debate, take a step back and look at what you're saying. Working 60-80 hours per week, making what any reasonable person would consider a huge salary, affords you a mediocre one-bedroom apartment. Really? This is what you want out of life?

Contrast that with living/working in, say, Dallas. Same starting salary, possibly lower billable expectations, and for the same price and with the same <30 minute commute, you could own a 3000-4000 square foot house (with a pool!) instead of renting a 600 square foot cracker box (with rats!). Or, if you still want to be a townie, <$2500 will get you a super-spacious, ultra-modern luxury flat. Never mind that you could probably pay for either of these options with just the money you'd save in state and city income taxes.

But you guys have "vibrancy." You can't put a price on that.

Nice strawman, buddy. My Gramercy 1BR is a luxury unit in a renovated pre-war building. I'm sorry if you need some sterile building. If you can find that in a prime location in Chicago for a decent price, then go to Chicago. If you're going to live in NYC when you had these other oprions, then stop whining and deal with it. That's really what this thread has come down to: a bunch of people who are whining. I get that NYC is ridiculous, but you only make it harder for yourself when you voluntarily come to this place and fail to realign your expectations. If you want that white picket fence, you chose the wrong place.

[alumniguy]

What about the "experience" of taking a shower every morning in a nice, spacious bathroom, or cooking in a modern, spacious kitchen?

Again, I think it all boils down to experience vs. goods. My shower in my 1-bedroom apartment is a normal shower, like the one I had growing up. It is a bathtub with a shower. I shower and then towel-off in the shower and step out. Perhaps I could utilize a nice 300 sq. foot bathroom, but I just don't need that. I've never had it and I don't desire it. My kitchen is small, but it is adequate. Certainly not the best part of my apartment. I do wish I had a bit more counter space, but I am not a chef. I cook my eggs in the morning, prepare my coffee and then afterwards put my dishes into my dishwasher. Just like people do in the suburbs I suppose. Do I own a Kitchen Aid mixer and display it on my counter? No. Do I have a coffee pot, an Nespresso espresso machine and a coffee grinder on my counter. Yes.

Also, I eat out WAY MORE than I cook.

[dresden doll]

Those of you taking the pro-NYC side in the debate, take a step back and look at what you're saying. Working 60-80 hours per week, making what any reasonable person would consider a huge salary, affords you a mediocre one-bedroom apartment. Really? This is what you want out of life?

Contrast that with living/working in, say, Dallas. Same starting salary, possibly lower billable expectations, and for the same price and with the same <30 minute commute, you could own a 3000-4000 square foot house (with a pool!) instead of renting a 600 square foot cracker box (with rats!). Or, if you still want to be a townie, <$2500 will get you a super-spacious, ultra-modern luxury flat. Never mind that you could probably pay for either of these options with just the money you'd save in state and city income taxes.

But you guys have "vibrancy." You can't put a price on that.

This, this, this.

[BruceWayne]

Those of you taking the pro-NYC side in the debate, take a step back and look at what you're saying. Working 60-80 hours per week, making what any reasonable person would consider a huge salary, affords you a mediocre one-bedroom apartment. Really? This is what you want out of life?

Contrast that with living/working in, say, Dallas. Same starting salary, possibly lower billable expectations, and for the same price and with the same <30 minute commute, you could own a 3000-4000 square foot house (with a pool!) instead of renting a 600 square foot cracker box (with rats!). Or, if you still want to be a townie, <$2500 will get you a super-spacious, ultra-modern luxury flat. Never mind that you could probably pay for either of these options with just the money you'd save in state and city income taxes.

But you guys have "vibrancy." You can't put a price on that.

This, this, this.

That kills me. People respond to the COL argument with "COL in NYC is so overblown ;you can get a good studio apartment in brooklyn for $1900 a month no problem" like it helps their point.

[dresden doll]

Nice strawman, buddy. My Gramercy 1BR is a luxury unit in a renovated pre-war building. I'm sorry if you need some sterile building. If you can find that in a prime location in Chicago for a decent price, then go to Chicago. If you're going to live in NYC when you had these other oprions, then stop whining and deal with it. That's really what this thread has come down to: a bunch of people who are whining. I get that NYC is ridiculous, but you only make it harder for yourself when you voluntarily come to this place and fail to realign your expectations. If you want that white picket fence, you chose the wrong place.

Some of us had pretty limited choices. Sure, no one is putting a knife to my throat but the fact that NYC was the most rational destination (for whatever professional or personal reason) for some of us doesn't mean we can't point out that the city is ultimately vastly overappreciated.

[rayiner]

Really? This is what you want out of life?

Contrast that with living/working in, say, Dallas. Same starting salary, possibly lower billable expectations, and for the same price and with the same <30 minute commute, you could own a 3000-4000 square foot house (with a pool!) instead of renting a 600 square foot cracker box (with rats!). Or, if you still want to be a townie, <$2500 will get you a super-spacious, ultra-modern luxury flat. Never mind that you could probably pay for either of these options with just the money you'd save in state and city income taxes.

But you guys have "vibrancy." You can't put a price on that.

Thankfully, life doesn't usually end during the first year at a NYC firm. How many Michelin-rated restaurants are in Dallas? How many world world-class museums? Opera houses? Coffee bars?

But hey, I'm sure you'll have a nice McMansion and your choice of Ruth's Chris, Morton's, or the Capital Grille.

Who cares how many restaurants are Michelin-rated if the food is good? Being a legit foodie and having sampled some of the "nice" NYC places, I can say I was more impressed with the food in Portland. NYC definitely has some great places to try if you're on vacation here, but it's really difficult to beat the insanely fresh food (particularly seafood) that you get even with a relatively cheap meal in Portland. Unless you're just really into prestige-eating, it's not going to impact your day to day QoL. Also, good tex mex >> Per Se.

And who goes to museums more then once? I grew up next to some of the best museums in the world (in DC) and didn't visit more than once a year. And if you're into opera and shit, Dallas has that too. Is it as famous? Does it matter?

[alumniguy]

Some of us had pretty limited choices. Sure, no one is putting a knife to my throat but the fact that NYC was the most rational destination (for whatever professional or personal reason) for some of us doesn't mean we can't point out that the city is ultimately vastly overappreciated.

But this would be the case for anyone who lives in a city that isn't their first choice. I'm sure I could come up with equally compelling arguments for why Dallas or Chicago are vastly overappreciated if in fact I live there but really wanted to live in NYC.

[dresden doll]

Who in their right mind needs a 3,000+ square foot house? To do what with? Have 5 children? Buy furniture just to make the place look like a house? Who wants to clean such a place. To me, I don't really understand the desire to have a big house. Of course I want more than a studio, but a nice 1 bedroom with a study is perfectly desirable to me.

I think what it really boils down to is whether you are (i) an experience oriented person or (ii) a goods oriented person. I find that people who would prefer to spend $150 on dinner versus $150 on a new pair of jeans or some other item, prefer to live in cities where you can get great experiences all the time. That just isn't the case for Dallas. Sure it has some fun things to do here and there, but for me, I would get bored very quickly. I like going to new restaurants, seeing diversity, experiencing the hustle of a large city, going to concerts, taking a train out to the beach occasionally, going hiking, traveling to other big cities like Boston, Philadelphia, or DC for the weekend. That stuff is all very difficult to do from Dallas but so easy from NYC.

Amazingly enough, many people would prefer to live in a spacious home that can comfortably house children they're hoping to have than have the capability to frequent the latest rendition of the Phantom of the Opera at the Metropolitan.

[rayiner]

Nice strawman, buddy. My Gramercy 1BR is a luxury unit in a renovated pre-war building. I'm sorry if you need some sterile building. If you can find that in a prime location in Chicago for a decent price, then go to Chicago. If you're going to live in NYC when you had these other oprions, then stop whining and deal with it. That's really what this thread has come down to: a bunch of people who are whining. I get that NYC is ridiculous, but you only make it harder for yourself when you voluntarily come to this place and fail to realign your expectations. If you want that white picket fence, you chose the wrong place.

Pre-war buildings around here are almost uniformly shit, with a few exceptions. I don't expect sterile, but I was born in the third world and don't expect Bangkok-level sanitation for $2500/mo in the US.

Again, it's not about expectations, it's about fair comparisons. The "whining" in this thread is in response to people downplaying the serious QoL compromises you make in order to get the "vibrancy" and "diversity" of NYC. It's not just like we randomly decided to go to a Yankees game with Mets hats.

[dresden doll]

Some of us had pretty limited choices. Sure, no one is putting a knife to my throat but the fact that NYC was the most rational destination (for whatever professional or personal reason) for some of us doesn't mean we can't point out that the city is ultimately vastly overappreciated.

But this would be the case for anyone who lives in a city that isn't their first choice. I'm sure I could come up with equally compelling arguments for why Dallas or Chicago are vastly overappreciated if in fact I live there but really wanted to live in NYC.

If you think Chicago or Dallas are overpriced, you are perfectly free to discuss that point.

[BruceWayne]

Really? This is what you want out of life?

Contrast that with living/working in, say, Dallas. Same starting salary, possibly lower billable expectations, and for the same price and with the same <30 minute commute, you could own a 3000-4000 square foot house (with a pool!) instead of renting a 600 square foot cracker box (with rats!). Or, if you still want to be a townie, <$2500 will get you a super-spacious, ultra-modern luxury flat. Never mind that you could probably pay for either of these options with just the money you'd save in state and city income taxes.

But you guys have "vibrancy." You can't put a price on that.

Thankfully, life doesn't usually end during the first year at a NYC firm. How many Michelin-rated restaurants are in Dallas? How many world world-class museums? Opera houses? Coffee bars?

But hey, I'm sure you'll have a nice McMansion and your choice of Ruth's Chris, Morton's, or the Capital Grille.

McMansion--NYC lover's term for housing larger than 300 square feet.

[D-hops]

Really? This is what you want out of life?

Contrast that with living/working in, say, Dallas. Same starting salary, possibly lower billable expectations, and for the same price and with the same <30 minute commute, you could own a 3000-4000 square foot house (with a pool!) instead of renting a 600 square foot cracker box (with rats!). Or, if you still want to be a townie, <$2500 will get you a super-spacious, ultra-modern luxury flat. Never mind that you could probably pay for either of these options with just the money you'd save in state and city income taxes.

But you guys have "vibrancy." You can't put a price on that.

Thankfully, life doesn't usually end during the first year at a NYC firm. How many Michelin-rated restaurants are in Dallas? How many world world-class museums? Opera houses? Coffee bars?

But hey, I'm sure you'll have a nice McMansion and your choice of Ruth's Chris, Morton's, or the Capital Grille.

McMansion--NYC lover's term for housing larger than 300 square feet.

You mean to tell me you don't store your pots and pans in your oven?

[rayiner]

What about the "experience" of taking a shower every morning in a nice, spacious bathroom, or cooking in a modern, spacious kitchen?

Again, I think it all boils down to experience vs. goods. My shower in my 1-bedroom apartment is a normal shower, like the one I had growing up. It is a bathtub with a shower. I shower and then towel-off in the shower and step out. Perhaps I could utilize a nice 300 sq. foot bathroom, but I just don't need that. I've never had it and I don't desire it. My kitchen is small, but it is adequate. Certainly not the best part of my apartment. I do wish I had a bit more counter space, but I am not a chef. I cook my eggs in the morning, prepare my coffee and then afterwards put my dishes into my dishwasher. Just like people do in the suburbs I suppose. Do I own a Kitchen Aid mixer and display it on my counter? No. Do I have a coffee pot, an Nespresso espresso machine and a coffee grinder on my counter. Yes.

Also, I eat out WAY MORE than I cook.

You're missing the point. What I'm trying to get at is that you're being selective about "experiences" versus "goods." Why is being able to afford the space to have a good kitchen less important, experience-wise, then being able to run out and see ethnic dancing in the park? I cook more than I watch opera* --- why is one experience less valuable then the other? It's not of course. You're just defining things that way because NYC offers a certain set of experiences while not offering others.

*) The fact that NYC-ers don't cook is probably why they put so much stock in stuff like Michilin stars and ratings. They don't know how to judge good food unless someone tells them what's good.

[alumniguy]

Who cares how many restaurants are Michelin-rated if the food is good? Being a legit foodie and having sampled some of the "nice" NYC places, I can say I was more impressed with the food in Portland. NYC definitely has some great places to try if you're on vacation here, but it's really difficult to beat the insanely fresh food (particularly seafood) that you get even with a relatively cheap meal in Portland. Unless you're just really into prestige-eating, it's not going to impact your day to day QoL. Also, good tex mex >> Per Se.

And who goes to museums more then once? I grew up next to some of the best museums in the world (in DC) and didn't visit more than once a year. And if you're into opera and shit, Dallas has that too. Is it as famous? Does it matter?

I dont' necessarily care about Michelin stars, but I do care about good, quality food. Are you really trying to tell me that Portland has better food options than NYC? Perhaps you don't venture out enough, but there is amazing food at any price point in NYC. Moreover, authentic food that you likely won't find anywhere else. And it does impact my QoL. No I don't eat out at great places every day, but you can be assured that I go to a great meal every week. Maybe it is a great sushi place one weekend and a pop-up restaurant the next weekend, but every week I go to a great restaurant.

Here is the thing about culture. Yes, other cities have cultural options to a degree, but they don't compete with NYC in terms of amount. The fact that you can go to just about anything any day of the week is pretty damn impressive here. Yes, Dallas probably gets some traveling Broadway shows, but it isn't getting the marquee shows with the marquee actors that NYC has. Likewise, NYC museums are abundant. More so than just the big name museums, NYC has a ton of smaller museums that focus on subsets of art - e.g., photography museums. Other cities don't have them. And the big name museums get the big traveling art shows - Picasso's "Guitars" was just at the Moma.

The fact is that you don't like this stuff and don't think it is noteworthy, but to many people this is what NYC is about - the ability to have great experiences that you can't get in the same quantity as other cities.

[dresden doll]

Why is being able to afford the space to have a good kitchen less important, experience-wise, then being able to run out and see ethnic dancing in the park?

I seriously laughed out loud.

[alumniguy]

Some of us had pretty limited choices. Sure, no one is putting a knife to my throat but the fact that NYC was the most rational destination (for whatever professional or personal reason) for some of us doesn't mean we can't point out that the city is ultimately vastly overappreciated.

But this would be the case for anyone who lives in a city that isn't their first choice. I'm sure I could come up with equally compelling arguments for why Dallas or Chicago are vastly overappreciated if in fact I live there but really wanted to live in NYC.

If you think Chicago or Dallas are overpriced, you are perfectly free to discuss that point.

I used the term you used - "overappreciated". I have nothing to say about price points buddy.

Nice strawman, buddy. My Gramercy 1BR is a luxury unit in a renovated pre-war building. I'm sorry if you need some sterile building. If you can find that in a prime location in Chicago for a decent price, then go to Chicago. If you're going to live in NYC when you had these other oprions, then stop whining and deal with it. That's really what this thread has come down to: a bunch of people who are whining. I get that NYC is ridiculous, but you only make it harder for yourself when you voluntarily come to this place and fail to realign your expectations. If you want that white picket fence, you chose the wrong place.

Some of us had pretty limited choices. Sure, no one is putting a knife to my throat but the fact that NYC was the most rational destination (for whatever professional or personal reason) for some of us doesn't mean we can't point out that the city is ultimately vastly overappreciated.

[dresden doll]

The fact is that you don't like this stuff and don't think it is noteworthy, but to many people this is what NYC is about - the ability to have great experiences that you can't get in the same quantity as other cities.

I'm not saying that cultural opportunities NYC offers aren't cool or that I'm by any means against being able to see an opera or drop by a world famous museum. But I don't think that all these noteworthy opportunities are worth having to live in a shoebox to the tune of +2000 dollars a month.

[BruceWayne]

The fact is that you don't like this stuff and don't think it is noteworthy, but to many people this is what NYC is about - the ability to have great experiences that you can't get in the same quantity as other cities.

I'm not saying that cultural opportunities NYC offers aren't cool or that I'm by any means against being able to see an opera or drop by a world famous museum. But I don't think that all these noteworthy opportunities are worth having to live in a shoebox to the tune of +2000 dollars a month.

Which, suprisingly, a lot of people have missed will lead to you not being able to afford going to the "world class" cultural opportunities anyway.

[dresden doll]

I used the term you used - "overappreciated". I have nothing to say about price points buddy.

I guess you failed to pick up on the fact that Rayiner and I find the city overappreciated precisely because it's damn overpriced.