Medicine vs. Law - prospects?

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Re: Medicine vs. Law - prospects?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat May 14, 2011 4:13 am

JamMasterJ wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:
rundoxierun wrote:
Renzo wrote:No one who can actually get into medical school would go to law school.


One of the biggest myths in the world is that it is incredibly hard to get into med school and that everyone who gets in is crazy smart. In reality, the thing with science is that to get good grades you have to put in a relatively large amount of time compared to other majors. Many college students are not willing to this so what you end up with is a lot of lazy 2.8-3.0 students applying to med schools because they are "pre-med". Fact of the matter is that cell bio, genetics, organic chem and the like dont really require some amazing intellectual capacity as much as they do just brute time/work. A 3.5+, research position with a prof, and decent MCAT score and you have a decent enough chance of getting into med school (top med schools are a whole diff ball game of course, those guys are incredible).

Source: was on the pre-med(non-science major) path before scoring 175+ on the LSAT.


There is NOTHING in the 1L curriculum that even moderately approaches the complexity of even General Chemistry. Let alone the conceptual difficulty of the later pre med classes like Cell biology, Organic Chemistry, or Physics. The reason law school is "hard" isn't because of the material. It's because of the forced curve. In fact, I think that one of the reasons law schools instituted the idea of a forced curve (if you noticed no other discipline does it) is partially due to that fact. Torts is down right simplistic. If law schools cut out the forced curve people's GPAs would skyrocket. They don't even have forced curves in many of these premed classes, and yet people still routinely get crap grades in them. Science teachers often "curve up" so that entire classes don't fail.

I had a 2.7 gpa during a semester as a Bio major because of gen chem and zoology. In two years as a poly sci major, my gpa was like a 3.8.


It also depends on your school's curve. My ugrad curved science classes to a 2.7, while poli sci was not curved and profs handed out As like candy.

IMO, gen chem is not hard. Gen chem is covered in high school AP Chem classes. O-chem is hard and seen as the "weeder" course for chem majors. And bio classes require rote memorization, meaning they aren't hard, but time consuming. Bio is seen as a "soft" science for a reason.

If you want legit HARD classes, take an upper div engineering course or upper div physics course. Most pre-meds are just average-smart, hard workers. Doing well in bio requires a lot of time, not that much natural ability. Doing well in EECS or something like that requires greater knack for the subject.

The Insider
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Re: Medicine vs. Law - prospects?

Postby The Insider » Sat May 14, 2011 4:26 am

I find it funny how my main objective was to discuss the prospects of each career; not coursework, curriculum, whether med classes are harder than law classes, no. We shouldn't compare. I was asking about job prospects, security, meaning, commitment, ad infinitum. Not that I'm angry, haha, I just find it amusing that it advertently transitioned into this.

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ResolutePear
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Re: Medicine vs. Law - prospects?

Postby ResolutePear » Sat May 14, 2011 9:10 am

The Insider wrote:I find it funny how my main objective was to discuss the prospects of each career; not coursework, curriculum, whether med classes are harder than law classes, no. We shouldn't compare. I was asking about job prospects, security, meaning, commitment, ad infinitum. Not that I'm angry, haha, I just find it amusing that it advertently transitioned into this.


You must be new here.

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Re: Medicine vs. Law - prospects?

Postby Noval » Sat May 14, 2011 10:16 am

Verity wrote:JD/MD?


Look, do what you find more interesting. Neither one is harder than the other to study, but lawyers generally have a much more stable schedule, even if this stability is offset by poorer job security. Medical school, by the way, isn't necessarily harder to get into than law school (you can go to med school in the Caribbean for half the price, it's easier to get in, and you can practice in the U.S. no problem).


False, Residency placement will look at U.S. grads before Caribbean grads.
So if you're aiming "high" and want the only good paying specialties in Medicine(Radiology, Opthalmology, Anesthesiology and Dermatology), you'll be the last in line to match there.

Caribbean Schools only guarantee a seat in U.S. Primary Care training programs and very few make it to the Specialist level.

Anyways, making it to TTT U.S. Med Schools isn't much of a challenge, you can get accepted in a school in the middle of no where with a 3.2-3.3, 27-28 MCAT and decent ECs and still have better Specialist Placement than most Caribbean grads out there(Even though R.O.A.D. is out of question for them too unless they have impeccable board scores and killer connections within the desired program).

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Noval
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Re: Medicine vs. Law - prospects?

Postby Noval » Sat May 14, 2011 10:25 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Noval wrote:
TUP wrote:
Noval wrote:- If you miss the R.O.A.D. Boat in Residency Matching you'll hate your life, unless you were dead set on a Specialty


+1 to your entire post, but this is what would scare the hell out of me most as a med student.


That would scare the shit out of me as well, but hey, there's no such thing as "Job security" anymore.

The only Healthcare jobs i would take are either Pharmacy or Clinical Psychology(Only if coming from a funded program with secured top choice internship).

To the dude asking about salaries, Primary Care salaries are shit because insurers do everything to eat your paycheck, add the horrible salary yearly progression, the debt and the hours worked and you'll find yourself even more exploited than a BigLaw attorney doing research in a dungeon 80 hours a week.


How do you get a fully funded pharm program? The only people I know doing pharm are paying sticker. And that's the first time I've heard about clinical psychology being in great demand, hmm.


Oh, i was talking about Clinical Psychology Ph.D./Psy.D. programs, the field of Psychology is also turning like Law as professionnal schools are popping up everywhere offering those "Dr.Booyadegree" to anyone who's willing to pay sticker.
Yet these schools have horrible job placement and the only Psych programs that can get you a job are the fully funded ones at real Universities.
Yes, Clinical Psychology is in high demand as the Government is sick and tired to pay full price for MD Psychiatrists, since a lot of the tasks a Psychiatrist does can be done by a Clinical Psychologist for half the price...

For the Pharm.D., tuition isn't that expensive and the program isn't that long, so paying Pharm sticker is nothing like paying Med/Law sticker, so you're safe even without some form of scholarships(unless you look at elite schools), even though it's highly recommended to shoot for one.

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Re: Medicine vs. Law - prospects?

Postby InvictusFortis » Sat May 14, 2011 10:26 am

From what I've read/gathered thus far, it's not the work in biglaw that is the problem, it's the hours. Many associates at top firms work on cutting-edge deals and cases.

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Re: Medicine vs. Law - prospects?

Postby Renzo » Sat May 14, 2011 10:42 am

InvictusFortis wrote:From what I've read/gathered thus far, it's not the work in biglaw that is the problem, it's the hours. Many associates at top firms work on cutting-edge deals and cases.


Cutting-edge deals and big cases involve more of the worst kinds of work for attorneys. The bigger and more high profile the matter, the worse the work actually is, generally speaking.

If you take a slip-and-fall case you'll get to depose witnesses, write/answer interrogatories, write memos, argue in court, and negotiate settlements. But in a big, complex case, they'll have a team of experienced partners doing the cool stuff like depos and court appearances. You'll be reviewing thousands of pages of documents that may or may not have anything to do with the case, and maybe if you're lucky you'll do some research and write a memo that will go to a team of people who will in turn write a portion of brief.

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Re: Medicine vs. Law - prospects?

Postby JPrezy87 » Sat May 14, 2011 10:47 am

Noval wrote:Let's not jump into the classic conclusions and suggest OP to go to Med School right away, both have grim job prospects but at a different angle, it's just that most people here don't know shit about Medicine and have the common misconceptions that it's a free ride to wealth and happiness.

Let's begin with Law:
Pros: - Less school years.
- If you screw up, you can lose your job, but often get a chance to get back up, in Medicine if you screw up, you
get sued, enter probation for a year or two and can lose your license for ever.





Yea no kidding...doctors bear alot more responsibility for their actions, lawyers..not so much...hell you can put an innocent man in prison (the case of Bernard Baran) or get a cold blooded murderer off (Johnny Cochran) and still be in business :lol:

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Re: Medicine vs. Law - prospects?

Postby penguin1 » Sat May 14, 2011 11:02 am

Noval wrote:
Verity wrote:JD/MD?


Look, do what you find more interesting. Neither one is harder than the other to study, but lawyers generally have a much more stable schedule, even if this stability is offset by poorer job security. Medical school, by the way, isn't necessarily harder to get into than law school (you can go to med school in the Caribbean for half the price, it's easier to get in, and you can practice in the U.S. no problem).


False, Residency placement will look at U.S. grads before Caribbean grads.
So if you're aiming "high" and want the only good paying specialties in Medicine(Radiology, Opthalmology, Anesthesiology and Dermatology), you'll be the last in line to match there.

Caribbean Schools only guarantee a seat in U.S. Primary Care training programs and very few make it to the Specialist level.

Anyways, making it to TTT U.S. Med Schools isn't much of a challenge, you can get accepted in a school in the middle of no where with a 3.2-3.3, 27-28 MCAT and decent ECs and still have better Specialist Placement than most Caribbean grads out there(Even though R.O.A.D. is out of question for them too unless they have impeccable board scores and killer connections within the desired program).


The only way you are getting into a middle of nowhere med school with a 3.2-3.3 AND a 27-38 MCAT is if it is either a DO school OR it is in a place like Louisiana or South Dakota and you are a resident of those states because something like 99% of the students they accept are residents of their states and only a few state schools have such low medians. In response to another poster that said med schools don't fail people - wrong... they do. You just have to retake the class in the summer - often with more difficult exams.

Also, only a few people have touched on residency as a factor - but i'd say its a pretty big factor. So you go through four years of med school and rack up loads of debt. then you are a slave to whatever residency program you end up in for at least 4 years. 4 years with 80 hour work weeks (or more), night call every 4th night (sometimes less depending on the program, but its usually pretty frequent) and often night call means sleeping at the hospital and staying up all night admitting patients. Not fun. you pretty much have no say over your schedule and almost non-existent vacation time for at least four years (i'm sure biglaw jobs are similar in terms of hours, but from what i've heard the brutal 4th night call thing makes residency hours a lot worse). All of this on $40,000/ year while paying back loans. Then say you really hate it and you want to quit - too bad - you really can't because if you do, you can't practice medicine. If you're in a biglaw job and really hate it, you can quit but you can still practice law. And its not just some residency programs that are awful - its pretty much all of them. When you graduate law school, you can choose to go into biglaw or something a bit less stressful - not so with residency unless like somebody else mentioned you are one of the lucky few who score well enough on step 1 to get a ROAD residency (and happen to enjoy the ROAD specialties).

Anyways, I'm not saying law is the obvious choice, or even the better career, I just think that it isn't such a massive commitment as medicine and that medicine has many many drawbacks that people fail to consider. However, medical school/residency is a pretty long path, so if you want to do it i'd say best start as soon as possible.

Tough choice, but good luck.

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Re: Medicine vs. Law - prospects?

Postby Noval » Sat May 14, 2011 11:19 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Noval wrote:
Verity wrote:JD/MD?


Look, do what you find more interesting. Neither one is harder than the other to study, but lawyers generally have a much more stable schedule, even if this stability is offset by poorer job security. Medical school, by the way, isn't necessarily harder to get into than law school (you can go to med school in the Caribbean for half the price, it's easier to get in, and you can practice in the U.S. no problem).


False, Residency placement will look at U.S. grads before Caribbean grads.
So if you're aiming "high" and want the only good paying specialties in Medicine(Radiology, Opthalmology, Anesthesiology and Dermatology), you'll be the last in line to match there.

Caribbean Schools only guarantee a seat in U.S. Primary Care training programs and very few make it to the Specialist level.

Anyways, making it to TTT U.S. Med Schools isn't much of a challenge, you can get accepted in a school in the middle of no where with a 3.2-3.3, 27-28 MCAT and decent ECs and still have better Specialist Placement than most Caribbean grads out there(Even though R.O.A.D. is out of question for them too unless they have impeccable board scores and killer connections within the desired program).


The only way you are getting into a middle of nowhere med school with a 3.2-3.3 AND a 27-38 MCAT is if it is either a DO school OR it is in a place like Louisiana or South Dakota and you are a resident of those states because something like 99% of the students they accept are residents of their states and only a few state schools have such low medians. In response to another poster that said med schools don't fail people - wrong... they do. You just have to retake the class in the summer - often with more difficult exams.


Dude, there's like 20 Med Schools under construction in the U.S. and even more are coming, it will definitely hurt the admission standards, believe or not, but some TTT-TTTT Med Schools do accept 3.2-3.3 GPAs with shitty MCATs if the applicant has shadowing experience and decent ECs.
Even if you don't make it in with these stats, chances are you will get in via the waitlist later in the summer, that's pretty much it.

DO Schools are even easier to get in if you have no other options.

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Re: Medicine vs. Law - prospects?

Postby DoubleChecks » Sat May 14, 2011 12:05 pm

Noval wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:The only way you are getting into a middle of nowhere med school with a 3.2-3.3 AND a 27-38 MCAT is if it is either a DO school OR it is in a place like Louisiana or South Dakota and you are a resident of those states because something like 99% of the students they accept are residents of their states and only a few state schools have such low medians. In response to another poster that said med schools don't fail people - wrong... they do. You just have to retake the class in the summer - often with more difficult exams.


Dude, there's like 20 Med Schools under construction in the U.S. and even more are coming, it will definitely hurt the admission standards, believe or not, but some TTT-TTTT Med Schools do accept 3.2-3.3 GPAs with shitty MCATs if the applicant has shadowing experience and decent ECs.
Even if you don't make it in with these stats, chances are you will get in via the waitlist later in the summer, that's pretty much it.

DO Schools are even easier to get in if you have no other options.


not that i really know or anything, but since it sounds like both of you are just guessing w/o any hard data to back it up...it seems anon is possibly more right, given that a quick google search even shows the really bad med schools (like south alabama) have average MCATs in the late 20's, with middle ish GPAs. even puerto rico is 22/3.5. doesn't seem likely a 3.2-3.3/27-28 student is getting in with those run of the mill softs and decent ECs. i mean, im sure some might, might they seem to be the exception to the rule.

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Re: Medicine vs. Law - prospects?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun May 15, 2011 2:22 pm

DoubleChecks wrote:
Renzo wrote:No one who can actually get into medical school would go to law school.


lies, i would probably still choose law school over medical school lol -- it is a profession that is arguably more stressful with a much more hellish grad school period


Definitely not true. I would hate to be MD. I took all the pre med classes and had a perfect 4.0 in then, a 3.95 overall. Not sure I would have gotten into every med school, but certainly a med school. I'm now a student at a T5 law school.

I hate that doctors get some much respect. I think most MD are uncreative. I have way more respect for Ph.D.s than MDs.

I think going to a top 10 law school is better than any med school.

In sum, for the top students I think law is better.

For the medium student, med is safer and better.

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Re: Medicine vs. Law - prospects?

Postby The Insider » Sun May 15, 2011 2:24 pm

- Cannot move to Finance or any field other than Research/Teaching, because seriously, who the fuck would hire
an MD to do Banking/Business or Non-Scientifical Consulting ?


Hi there, actually this statement is indeed wrong as MBB does actively recruit those with professional degrees. Here is an example, albeit one of many:

--LinkRemoved--

Although a PhD is not a professional degree, so I'm not sure why that's up there.

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Re: Medicine vs. Law - prospects?

Postby ResolutePear » Sun May 15, 2011 2:33 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
DoubleChecks wrote:
Renzo wrote:No one who can actually get into medical school would go to law school.


lies, i would probably still choose law school over medical school lol -- it is a profession that is arguably more stressful with a much more hellish grad school period


Definitely not true. I would hate to be MD. I took all the pre med classes and had a perfect 4.0 in then, a 3.95 overall. Not sure I would have gotten into every med school, but certainly a med school. I'm now a student at a T5 law school.

I hate that doctors get some much respect. I think most MD are uncreative. I have way more respect for Ph.D.s than MDs.

I think going to a top 10 law school is better than any med school.

In sum, for the top students I think law is better.

For the medium student, med is safer and better.


Uncreative?

Well, gee - no wonder we don't have a cure for cancer or an HIV vaccine.

They probably just rip research from PhDs.

Those uncreative bastards.

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Re: Medicine vs. Law - prospects?

Postby Julio_El_Chavo » Sun May 15, 2011 2:44 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I hate that doctors get some much respect. I think most MD are uncreative. I have way more respect for Ph.D.s than MDs.


TBF, most lawyers are incredibly uncreative as well.

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Re: Medicine vs. Law - prospects?

Postby vamedic03 » Sun May 15, 2011 2:44 pm

ResolutePear wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
DoubleChecks wrote:
Renzo wrote:No one who can actually get into medical school would go to law school.


lies, i would probably still choose law school over medical school lol -- it is a profession that is arguably more stressful with a much more hellish grad school period


Definitely not true. I would hate to be MD. I took all the pre med classes and had a perfect 4.0 in then, a 3.95 overall. Not sure I would have gotten into every med school, but certainly a med school. I'm now a student at a T5 law school.

I hate that doctors get some much respect. I think most MD are uncreative. I have way more respect for Ph.D.s than MDs.

I think going to a top 10 law school is better than any med school.

In sum, for the top students I think law is better.

For the medium student, med is safer and better.


Uncreative?

Well, gee - no wonder we don't have a cure for cancer or an HIV vaccine.

They probably just rip research from PhDs.

Those uncreative bastards.


You do realize that PhDs do most of the research? And many research oriented MDs have PhDs as well?

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ResolutePear
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Re: Medicine vs. Law - prospects?

Postby ResolutePear » Sun May 15, 2011 2:45 pm

vamedic03 wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
DoubleChecks wrote:lies, i would probably still choose law school over medical school lol -- it is a profession that is arguably more stressful with a much more hellish grad school period


Definitely not true. I would hate to be MD. I took all the pre med classes and had a perfect 4.0 in then, a 3.95 overall. Not sure I would have gotten into every med school, but certainly a med school. I'm now a student at a T5 law school.

I hate that doctors get some much respect. I think most MD are uncreative. I have way more respect for Ph.D.s than MDs.

I think going to a top 10 law school is better than any med school.

In sum, for the top students I think law is better.

For the medium student, med is safer and better.


Uncreative?

Well, gee - no wonder we don't have a cure for cancer or an HIV vaccine.

They probably just rip research from PhDs.

Those uncreative bastards.


You do realize that PhDs do most of the research? And many research oriented MDs have PhDs as well?


I was not being sarcastic.

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Re: Medicine vs. Law - prospects?

Postby The Insider » Sun May 15, 2011 2:51 pm

.
Last edited by The Insider on Sun May 15, 2011 3:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Medicine vs. Law - prospects?

Postby DoubleChecks » Sun May 15, 2011 3:00 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
DoubleChecks wrote:
Renzo wrote:No one who can actually get into medical school would go to law school.


lies, i would probably still choose law school over medical school lol -- it is a profession that is arguably more stressful with a much more hellish grad school period


Definitely not true. I would hate to be MD. I took all the pre med classes and had a perfect 4.0 in then, a 3.95 overall. Not sure I would have gotten into every med school, but certainly a med school. I'm now a student at a T5 law school.

I hate that doctors get some much respect. I think most MD are uncreative. I have way more respect for Ph.D.s than MDs.

I think going to a top 10 law school is better than any med school.

In sum, for the top students I think law is better.

For the medium student, med is safer and better.


what part is definitely not true? are you saying that medical school being more hellish than law school is definitely not true? or that the profession is arguably more stressful than law?

either way, you've just pretty much made a greater blanket statement that has 0 evidence to back it up. sry, i dont think you'd be a great lawyer either -- unless you didnt mean to include yourself in the "top students" bracket, in which case i guess we can agree on something.

and seriously...are you implying the profession of law is NOT uncreative? lol

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Re: Medicine vs. Law - prospects?

Postby The Insider » Sun May 15, 2011 3:01 pm

FTR, if you are talking about a PhD in sociology, philosophy, political science, history, communication, or other useless disciplines, I agree.

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Re: Medicine vs. Law - prospects?

Postby ResolutePear » Sun May 15, 2011 3:04 pm

DoubleChecks wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
DoubleChecks wrote:
Renzo wrote:No one who can actually get into medical school would go to law school.


lies, i would probably still choose law school over medical school lol -- it is a profession that is arguably more stressful with a much more hellish grad school period


Definitely not true. I would hate to be MD. I took all the pre med classes and had a perfect 4.0 in then, a 3.95 overall. Not sure I would have gotten into every med school, but certainly a med school. I'm now a student at a T5 law school.

I hate that doctors get some much respect. I think most MD are uncreative. I have way more respect for Ph.D.s than MDs.

I think going to a top 10 law school is better than any med school.

In sum, for the top students I think law is better.

For the medium student, med is safer and better.


what part is definitely not true? are you saying that medical school being more hellish than law school is definitely not true? or that the profession is arguably more stressful than law?

either way, you've just pretty much made a greater blanket statement that has 0 evidence to back it up. sry, i dont think you'd be a great lawyer either -- unless you didnt mean to include yourself in the "top students" bracket, in which case i guess we can agree on something.

and seriously...are you implying the profession of law is NOT uncreative? lol


He has a point. The top students are better off in law.

The top students go to Yale.

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Re: Medicine vs. Law - prospects?

Postby DoubleChecks » Sun May 15, 2011 3:06 pm

ResolutePear wrote:He has a point. The top students are better off in law.

The top students go to Yale.


right, like i said, unless he meant a different "top" bracket than the one he implied (T5, coincidentally the school he attends)

and his response is a tad confusing since he said definitely not true to my statement which started with "i would still choose law school over medical school" lol -- then proceeded to talk about how he'd choose law school over medical school

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Noval
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Re: Medicine vs. Law - prospects?

Postby Noval » Sun May 15, 2011 6:10 pm

The Insider wrote:
- Cannot move to Finance or any field other than Research/Teaching, because seriously, who the fuck would hire
an MD to do Banking/Business or Non-Scientifical Consulting ?


Hi there, actually this statement is indeed wrong as MBB does actively recruit those with professional degrees. Here is an example, albeit one of many:

--LinkRemoved--

Although a PhD is not a professional degree, so I'm not sure why that's up there.


Most, if not all non-finance/management grads doing Consulting or Investment Banking either have Law, Accounting or Engineering degrees.

Your chances to get these jobs as a non-MBA grad are already slim, now imagine with an MD where all the knowledge is not transferable to Consulting or Banking.

MDs have it worse than anyone else for any Business job:

http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/d ... fications/

Lawyers have it better than anyone else without MBAs when you talk about breaking in Banking or Consulting:

http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/b ... he-lawyer/
Last edited by Noval on Sun May 15, 2011 6:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Medicine vs. Law - prospects?

Postby kapachino » Sun May 15, 2011 6:17 pm

ResolutePear wrote:

Well, it's true. That's why there's PA's.

Doctors gravitate towards specialties with higher pay and prestige.

Why be a PCP when you can be an oncologist and make twice as much? That's the problem.


Specialties are currently oversaturated, and it's only a matter of time before the bubble bursts. PCP is the safe route, but not many med students want it.

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Re: Medicine vs. Law - prospects?

Postby The Insider » Sun May 15, 2011 6:35 pm

Noval wrote:
The Insider wrote:
- Cannot move to Finance or any field other than Research/Teaching, because seriously, who the fuck would hire
an MD to do Banking/Business or Non-Scientifical Consulting ?


Hi there, actually this statement is indeed wrong as MBB does actively recruit those with professional degrees. Here is an example, albeit one of many:

--LinkRemoved--

Although a PhD is not a professional degree, so I'm not sure why that's up there.


Most, if not all non-finance/management grads doing Consulting or Investment Banking either have Law, Accounting or Engineering degrees.

Your chances to get these jobs as a non-MBA grad are already slim, now imagine with an MD where all the knowledge is not transferable to Consulting or Banking.

MDs have it worse than anyone else for any Business job:

http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/d ... fications/

Lawyers have it better than anyone else without MBAs when you talk about breaking in Banking or Consulting:

http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/b ... he-lawyer/


Mind you, I wasn't attempting to say that the MD is best for business. In fact, any MD holder in their right mind would never demote his/herself to a managerial role, so stop acting as if they are "worse" in any given scenario. The option is there for them hypothetically if they ever decide to go down to business, and that's all I was alluding to. Judging by the way you post your comments, along with the unnecessary caustic terms you used to judge MDs (i.e. "who the fuck would hire one for business") it gives the unambiguous impression that you are jealous of the field, or are insecure in your own field of study.




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