Medicine vs. Law - prospects? Forum

[Anonymous User]

This thread is relevant to my interests.

[Rooney]

My gosh, this post is filled with sheer stupidity. Doctors have to know how anatomy works, basic physics, bodily functions and diseases, diagnosis, as well as have excellent writing skills.

Hahaha no.

In the end, lawyers take something away from someone, whether it be money, property, or freedom. Doctors have everything to give. When there is a successful treatment, no one is mad a doctor, and he/she is satisfied with the outcome.

Science and the human body are awesome (and don't act like they aren't)

GTFO. Learn how to write. Especially since you think doctors need to have excellent writing skills.

[jdhopeful14]

Science and the human body are awesome (and don't act like they aren't)

So how does one not act like science and the human body aren't awesome? I'd like to know.

[DoubleChecks]

My "definitely not true" statement above was directed towards Renzo's statement. I was trying to agree with you, Doublechecks.

As someone who's background was a better fit for med school than law school, I made the choice to go law school and would make it again, and I am therefore the example of one needed to refute Renzo's statement.

And, along with other posters in this board, I do include MD/PhDs in the group of PhDs who I think deserve more respect. The vast majority of medical research is done by PhDs.

Doctors are just technicians, in my opinion. Maybe most lawyers are too, but at least you are suppose to make creative and convincing arguments when you write. In my opinion, your job as a doctor is to be inherently uncreative--to apply the knowledge generated by researchers.

Maybe being a lawyer will suck, and I'll regret my life choices down the road. So be it. But I'm glad to be in law school know. And I'd make the choice again.

And the only thing better about harvard med over yale law is that it impresses people more in bars, IMO.

lol okay sry, that makes your post a lot more coherent -- i was really thrown through the loop at first as it seemed to be a baseless argument...until you know, i realized just now that you meant the opposite
self-pwnt on my part

[ResolutePear]

Science and the human body are awesome (and don't act like they aren't)

So how does one not act like science and the human body aren't awesome? I'd like to know.

Tea party. 'nuff said.

[RevolverX]

Wow, sifting through all of this I see this thread has so many insanely bad posts.

Let's get a few things clear here, shall we?

Firstly, out of all the schools offered in the universe, medical school has the lowest acceptance rate in comparison to anything else out there. Plus, you don't see a separate "Phd school" like someone indicated earlier, proving just how unrecognized the program truly is: it is not a pathway to become a professional which is why they don't get designation.

Second, to those thinking the Phd is "better" than the MD (which is patently untrue), why do you see so many Phds lowering themselves and going back to law school? Because they realized they wasted their time and got involved in a path that would either throw them in a lab all day to do unbelievably boring tasks or tedious work. Then they think, I'm not getting paid enough really so why didn't I go to law school? Gee, I guess having a fancy english master's and being able to work in industry sure beats my useless time in this beleaguering lab.

That's almost never the case with the MD - they don't demote themselves by going to law school after graduating because once you are in med school, you are virtually guaranteed security by having a job. That's NEVER the case with law school, even if you go t14, as there is too much competition for even the most petty job (biglaw associate). Plus, to top it off, you always hear anecdotes of JDs working at Target or cleaning toilets because they couldn't secure employment after graduating.

It is true that certain Phds (maybe chemistry or something) contribute research to mobilize a prospect; however MDs are directly responsible for the welfare of people (and MDs can easily do research on top of prescribing; Phds, though, are limited to just research, as they are not professionals), as well as working in industry. Doctors in the grand scheme of things are more of the asset to the community. Have you ever heard of this expression "then this wonderful Phd saved my mother's (wife's, daughter's, son's, cousin's, etc) life?
To my knowledge PhDs only defend their thesis once. Then are allowed to continue "PhD'ing" as long as they want and once tenured are nigh unaccountable for their behavior. MDs are required to continue education while they practice. They must pass the board exams to be licensed, re-certify every somewhat years to keep on pace with new health care and breakthroughs and discoveries. How many Phds have you heard of being sued for malpractice? This is how serious of a role doctors have, as Phds NEVER have to worry about such prospects.

And, doctors certainly can do research and many do. But Phds cannot practice medicine. Even a Phd in pharmacology cannot prescribe medication, proving that MD==research&medicine>>>Phd==research.

And regarding the prestige: undoubtedly doctors are more prestigious in the aggregate echelon. Do you know how competitive it is to become a doctor? Ever heard of secondary applications? How many law schools offer that? None. How many Phd programs? 0. Not to mention the MCAT, which is more difficult than the GRE and LSAT combined.

Doctors are directly responsible for people's lives and welfare, which is why our community values them so much. No other application process is as strenuous as that of the MD, and when looking at the "whole package" one offers, its there with them.

[Anonymous User]

.

[Patriot1208]

Not to mention the MCAT, which is more difficult than the GRE and LSAT combined.

Are you kidding me? I've had plenty of med students tell me the exact opposite.

This is going to be solely dependant on what you specifically are good at.

[ResolutePear]

Second, to those thinking the Phd is "better" than the MD (which is patently untrue), why do you see so many Phds lowering themselves and going back to law school? Because they realized they wasted their time and got involved in a path that would either throw them in a lab all day to do unbelievably boring tasks or tedious work. Then they think, I'm not getting paid enough really so why didn't I go to law school? Gee, I guess having a fancy english master's and being able to work in industry sure beats my useless time in this beleaguering lab.

So PhD's "lower" themselves by going to law school, eh? And a law degree is "a fancy english master's"? WOW. Can't wait to hear what other have to say about this one.

Not to mention the MCAT, which is more difficult than the GRE and LSAT combined.

Are you kidding me? I've had plenty of med students tell me the exact opposite.

Stop abusing the anon feature. It's very annoying.

[ResolutePear]

And, doctors certainly can do research and many do. But Phds cannot practice medicine. Even a Phd in pharmacology cannot prescribe medication, proving that MD==research&medicine>>>Phd==research.

Yes, because the true worth of a doctor is his prescription pad.

Great. I am now convinced.

[Patriot1208]

Yes, because the true worth of a doctor is his prescription pad.

It's worth a lot, at the least.

[Noval]

- Cannot move to Finance or any field other than Research/Teaching, because seriously, who the fuck would hire
an MD to do Banking/Business or Non-Scientifical Consulting ?

Hi there, actually this statement is indeed wrong as MBB does actively recruit those with professional degrees. Here is an example, albeit one of many:

--LinkRemoved--

Although a PhD is not a professional degree, so I'm not sure why that's up there.

Most, if not all non-finance/management grads doing Consulting or Investment Banking either have Law, Accounting or Engineering degrees.

Your chances to get these jobs as a non-MBA grad are already slim, now imagine with an MD where all the knowledge is not transferable to Consulting or Banking.

MDs have it worse than anyone else for any Business job:

http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/d ... fications/

Lawyers have it better than anyone else without MBAs when you talk about breaking in Banking or Consulting:

http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/b ... he-lawyer/

Mind you, I wasn't attempting to say that the MD is best for business. In fact, any MD holder in their right mind would never demote his/herself to a managerial role, so stop acting as if they are "worse" in any given scenario. The option is there for them hypothetically if they ever decide to go down to business, and that's all I was alluding to. Judging by the way you post your comments, along with the unnecessary caustic terms you used to judge MDs (i.e. "who the fuck would hire one for business") it gives the unambiguous impression that you are jealous of the field, or are insecure in your own field of study.

I'm not hating or anything, i'm just being honest.
The only ones i see getting Business jobs as non-MBAs are either Engineers or Lawyers, with Accountants in some cases.
In this case Medical professionnals or any Ph.D. out there will have it worse than anybody else as Banks or Consulting Firms do not want over educated people to do the job, but young, clueless professionnals who are used to grunt work at a 80 hours/week basis and don't know any better.

So unless you got something special to offer or you networked like a ninja for months and a miracle happened, you won't make it in Consulting or Banking as a Medical Professionnal/Ph.D.

MDs deserve better treatment in their field, but i just wanted to expose their reality in and outside their field of practice.

[Noval]

Doctors are directly responsible for people's lives and welfare, which is why our community values them so much. No other application process is as strenuous as that of the MD, and when looking at the "whole package" one offers, its there with them.

Not all Doctors save lives, unless we talk about Surgeons, there's technically no sign of "life saving" as a Doctor.
It's just filling papers up, giving phone calls, getting dissed by patients all day long while trying to prescribe them medications.

But their role is still very needed and they got my respect for that, that profession, like Law, got hyped up by the Media and it eventually acquired an "official" image through movies, tv shows, etc...

[bruinwang]

Not to mention the MCAT, which is more difficult than the GRE and LSAT combined.

Are you kidding me? I've had plenty of med students tell me the exact opposite.

This is going to be solely dependant on what you specifically are good at.

+1. My bro's a physician who briefly considered going into law, and he backed out once he learned what the LSAT and law school actually entailed. Just didn't fit his particular set of talents.

I also lol'ed at the attempt to combine the GRE and LSAT to make a hyperbolic comparison. That'd be a really annoying test to take.

[Anonymous User]

Completely anecdotal:

I know of someone who had always wanted to be a lawyer and was rejected from every law school she applied to (and she wasn't reaching). She was simply unable to score sufficiently on the LSAT.

After accepting that she would not be attending law school, she went back to school, took pre-med courses, took the MCAT, and is now attending a highly-regarded medical school.

This is not to say that the LSAT is more difficult that the MCAT, as I don't believe this claim, or its antithesis, could ever be true without being qualified. The two tests are simply different and test different skills/abilities.

[dailygrind]

PSA:

There is a ridiculous amount of anon abuse ITT. From this point forward, I will "out" anyone who abuses the anon feature ITT, and if I see that you've already abused the anon feature ITT, I will ban you.

[Commonwealthman]

You guys are obsessed arguing over ridiculous bullshit.

Wow, sifting through all of this I see this thread has so many insanely bad posts.

These are all credited.

And regarding the prestige: undoubtedly doctors are more prestigious in the aggregate echelon.

No other application process is as strenuous as that of the MD...

Of course, I have to throw my $0.02 here, and that is that the general public has respect for doctors much more than Phds or lawyers.

None of this matters. The American public has a higher degree of trust (not necessarily respect) for doctors measured in public opinion polls, but so what? Do you go to grad/professional school to impress your mom's best friend? Of course not. Survey respondents aren't hiring you. Random members of the general public might believe have never heard of Northwestern, or think that Cornell is better that Chicago, or whatever. The general public probably respects prosecutors more than M&A lawyers. That doesn't stop people from going to Northwestern and becoming prosecutors. Most people don't make decisions on where to go to school, or what field to practice in, or what career to choose based on the vague conceptions of laypeople.

I would note that in lawyers are much more common in public office than doctorate-holding health care professionals, even though the number of lawyers is roughly the same as the number of physicians, dentists, vets, chiros, optometrists, podiatrists. That says at least something as to public respect.

Not to be rude but ask any person from the street "who do you have more respect for: the Cardiologist who saves lives or the Mechaninical engineering PhD?" This is so self-evident. That's why doctors have coats, licenses, respect, prestige. Phds have none of those!

You gave the cardiologist an attribute ("saves lives") but not the engineer. Phrase it differently: the cardiologist who saves lives or the mechanical engineering PhD who designs rockets or bridges. Most people would say they respect both immensely. "Who you have more respect for" is a dumb question which yields dumb, uninformed answers. By the way, engineers are licensed too.

Law - If you screw up, you can lose your job, but often get a chance to get back up, in Medicine if you screw up, you get sued, enter probation for a year or two and can lose your license for ever.

This is not right. Self-regulation in law is much more stringent than self-regulation in medicine. You do not need to screw up enormously to be reprimanded or suspended especially when it comes to duties to clients and their money. Compared to lawyers, regulations on doctors are fairly light. For example, doctors are legally allowed to do all sorts of things (such as maintaining crazy relationships with big pharmaceutical companies).

The average Lawyer is more happy than the average Doctor.

If you look at career satisfaction studies I don't believe this is true.

[Commonwealthman]

As for Obamacare, it does basically nothing to make healthcare cost less.

This is flat wrong, as both the CBO and the CMS have both determined.

Health care reform bill "would have a significant downward impact on future health care cost growth rates"
https://www.cms.gov/ActuarialStudies/Do ... -01-08.pdf
--LinkRemoved--

[ResolutePear]

As for Obamacare, it does basically nothing to make healthcare cost less.

This is flat wrong, as both the CBO and the CMS have both determined.

Health care reform bill "would have a significant downward impact on future health care cost growth rates"
https://www.cms.gov/ActuarialStudies/Do ... -01-08.pdf
--LinkRemoved--

Unless Obamacare forces the AMA to open up more med schools and lower entrance requirements, it doesn't. It's simple supply and demand.

[Rock-N-Roll]

As for Obamacare, it does basically nothing to make healthcare cost less.

This is flat wrong, as both the CBO and the CMS have both determined.

Health care reform bill "would have a significant downward impact on future health care cost growth rates"
https://www.cms.gov/ActuarialStudies/Do ... -01-08.pdf
--LinkRemoved--

Great! This thread takes an interesting turn.

Yes. The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act is projected to provide long term savings (in around 15 years I believe) but I think it is fair to question how accurate the CBO and CMS projections really are that far into the future, and especially given that there are an incredible number of variables when it comes to calculating the cost of healthcare.

[Renzo]

As for Obamacare, it does basically nothing to make healthcare cost less.

This is flat wrong, as both the CBO and the CMS have both determined.

Health care reform bill "would have a significant downward impact on future health care cost growth rates"
https://www.cms.gov/ActuarialStudies/Do ... -01-08.pdf
--LinkRemoved--

Right. But the CBO does some crazy shit, like counting the premiums on CLASS act policies as revenue, while ignoring the fact that they will eventually pay out benefits. It's the craziest, nonsensical accounting you could ever dream of.

The only thing the ACA actual does to lower costs is allow the formations of Accountable Care Organizations. The funny thing about those is that no one knows what the fuck an Accountable Care Organization is, or what it does, or how it will actually work--only that they'll save money.

[Rooney]

Wow, sifting through all of this I see this thread has so many insanely bad posts.

Let's get a few things clear here, shall we?

Firstly, out of all the schools offered in the universe, medical school has the lowest acceptance rate in comparison to anything else out there. Plus, you don't see a separate "Phd school" like someone indicated earlier, proving just how unrecognized the program truly is: it is not a pathway to become a professional which is why they don't get designation.

Second, to those thinking the Phd is "better" than the MD (which is patently untrue), why do you see so many Phds lowering themselves and going back to law school? Because they realized they wasted their time and got involved in a path that would either throw them in a lab all day to do unbelievably boring tasks or tedious work. Then they think, I'm not getting paid enough really so why didn't I go to law school? Gee, I guess having a fancy english master's and being able to work in industry sure beats my useless time in this beleaguering lab.

That's almost never the case with the MD - they don't demote themselves by going to law school after graduating because once you are in med school, you are virtually guaranteed security by having a job. That's NEVER the case with law school, even if you go t14, as there is too much competition for even the most petty job (biglaw associate). Plus, to top it off, you always hear anecdotes of JDs working at Target or cleaning toilets because they couldn't secure employment after graduating.

It is true that certain Phds (maybe chemistry or something) contribute research to mobilize a prospect; however MDs are directly responsible for the welfare of people (and MDs can easily do research on top of prescribing; Phds, though, are limited to just research, as they are not professionals), as well as working in industry. Doctors in the grand scheme of things are more of the asset to the community. Have you ever heard of this expression "then this wonderful Phd saved my mother's (wife's, daughter's, son's, cousin's, etc) life?
To my knowledge PhDs only defend their thesis once. Then are allowed to continue "PhD'ing" as long as they want and once tenured are nigh unaccountable for their behavior. MDs are required to continue education while they practice. They must pass the board exams to be licensed, re-certify every somewhat years to keep on pace with new health care and breakthroughs and discoveries. How many Phds have you heard of being sued for malpractice? This is how serious of a role doctors have, as Phds NEVER have to worry about such prospects.

And, doctors certainly can do research and many do. But Phds cannot practice medicine. Even a Phd in pharmacology cannot prescribe medication, proving that MD==research&medicine>>>Phd==research.

And regarding the prestige: undoubtedly doctors are more prestigious in the aggregate echelon. Do you know how competitive it is to become a doctor? Ever heard of secondary applications? How many law schools offer that? None. How many Phd programs? 0. Not to mention the MCAT, which is more difficult than the GRE and LSAT combined.

Doctors are directly responsible for people's lives and welfare, which is why our community values them so much. No other application process is as strenuous as that of the MD, and when looking at the "whole package" one offers, its there with them.

Oh, I also know a JD/MD who works at an amazingly successful medmal firm. I'm sure he doesn't regret "lowering himself" to go to law school after he became an MD.

Anyway, TCR is that a society without lawyers and/or doctors would suck.

[Noval]

Law - If you screw up, you can lose your job, but often get a chance to get back up, in Medicine if you screw up, you get sued, enter probation for a year or two and can lose your license for ever.

This is not right. Self-regulation in law is much more stringent than self-regulation in medicine. You do not need to screw up enormously to be reprimanded or suspended especially when it comes to duties to clients and their money. Compared to lawyers, regulations on doctors are fairly light. For example, doctors are legally allowed to do all sorts of things (such as maintaining crazy relationships with big pharmaceutical companies).

The average Lawyer is more happy than the average Doctor.

If you look at career satisfaction studies I don't believe this is true.[/quote]

I was talking about huge mistakes during the job, not about self-regulations.

Regarding satisfaction and happiness, like i said before, this will vary on the Specialty.

Very few PCP Doctors are happy because of malpractice insurance, and most become PCPs because they couldn't match in their top choice Specialty (Then you get the PCP card, and if you don't take it, you go unmatched and enjoy a job at starbucks).

Sure, there are many happy Doctors out there, but most are Specialists, and even at that, the level of satisfaction is unrivaled in R.O.A.D. Specialties compared to others.

[ResolutePear]

Law:
Pros: TLS is relevant.
Cons: Studentdoctor.com is not relevant.

Medicine:
Pros: Studentdoctor.com is relevant.
Cons: TLS is not relevant.