Differences between a V10 and say, a V25-50 firm?

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timbs4339
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Re: Differences between a V10 and say, a V25-50 firm?

Postby timbs4339 » Mon May 09, 2011 11:26 am

Sogui wrote:
UnitarySpace wrote:you should recount sogui. also your denominator is slightly off - career services quoted a participation rate of 85 percent. i'll let you fill in the blanks.


I don't have the numbers with me, 297 got offers. If only 85% of the class participated then we're talking about maybe the bottom 20% of OCI participants not getting job offers.

My primary concern was about the long-term influences of my apathy this semester. Like what a drop from Stone scholar territory to near-median would mean for career prospects. Part of me was convinced that it just wouldn't matter.


No, you need to be concerned about your immediate career prospects. You need to go study. Without work experience and median grades, you are at risk for striking out. Secondary market OCI is very difficult for median students- especially if you don't have ties to an area and are looking to go there for lifestyle. I was from the place where I stuck most of my bids and got 0 callbacks because the firms called back maybe 5 people out of 20 and it was the same 5 people (the ones with the best grades) each time.

With median grades, your strategy will be to bid the big NYC law firms, such as Cadwalader, Dewey, Shearman, Jones Day, Schulte, which will give you the type of work experience you are looking for but will demand a lifestyle approximating your classmates at CSM/S+C/DPW, with fewer exit options.

timbs4339
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Re: Differences between a V10 and say, a V25-50 firm?

Postby timbs4339 » Mon May 09, 2011 11:49 am

UnitarySpace wrote:you should recount sogui. also your denominator is slightly off - career services quoted a participation rate of 85 percent. i'll let you fill in the blanks.


Did OCS say whether the number included transfers or not. With a class size of 470 (plus transfers) his denominator looks fine. I do question the accuracy of the 85% though.

Renzo
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Re: Differences between a V10 and say, a V25-50 firm?

Postby Renzo » Mon May 09, 2011 12:46 pm

timbs4339 wrote:
UnitarySpace wrote:you should recount sogui. also your denominator is slightly off - career services quoted a participation rate of 85 percent. i'll let you fill in the blanks.


Did OCS say whether the number included transfers or not. With a class size of 470 (plus transfers) his denominator looks fine. I do question the accuracy of the 85% though.


85% of participants seems about right. I haven't seen last years numbers yet, but at both NYU and CLS two years ago the numbers were just under 80%, and by all accounts last year was marginally better.

timbs4339
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Re: Differences between a V10 and say, a V25-50 firm?

Postby timbs4339 » Mon May 09, 2011 4:13 pm

Renzo wrote:
timbs4339 wrote:
UnitarySpace wrote:you should recount sogui. also your denominator is slightly off - career services quoted a participation rate of 85 percent. i'll let you fill in the blanks.


Did OCS say whether the number included transfers or not. With a class size of 470 (plus transfers) his denominator looks fine. I do question the accuracy of the 85% though.


85% of participants seems about right. I haven't seen last years numbers yet, but at both NYU and CLS two years ago the numbers were just under 80%, and by all accounts last year was marginally better.
'

CLS placed about 70% last year, NYU the same.

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UnitarySpace
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Re: Differences between a V10 and say, a V25-50 firm?

Postby UnitarySpace » Mon May 09, 2011 6:07 pm

85% participation rate including transfers. 2 years ago was upper 60s. this year its more like upper 70s.

2LLLL
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Re: Differences between a V10 and say, a V25-50 firm?

Postby 2LLLL » Mon May 09, 2011 6:39 pm

Renzo wrote:
2LLLL wrote:
If only 85% of the class participated then we're talking about maybe the bottom 20% of OCI participants not getting job offers.



Not necessarily. It has been well covered on this board that X% of a class getting offers does not equal the top X% getting offers. Once you get lower in the class, things like personality and WE become more important, such that a bottom whatever percent student could get an offer where a median student (like the poster 3 above) could strike out.


Right. There are firms that have strict, no-exceptions grade cutoffs. Then there are firms that consider the whole package; such that being slightly above median may not put you in a better spot than someone who has bottom-of-the-curve grades, but has charisma and real work experience. Grades are one of many independent factors for most firms, but pretty much the only one you have control over between now and OCI (you're not going to get funnier or more worldly in 4 months, after all).



Exactly- if I could give one message to current 1Ls based on my experience of going through the OCI process, it is that having an attitude like OP's (see the quote from my earlier post) will definitely increase your chances of striking out. You need to do everything you can to maximize your chances at OCI- and that means killing your finals this week, mass mailing, researching, working connections, etc.... You can't just come in thinking that it's no big deal because if you don't get a V10 you'll still have a V50 as a backup.

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swc65
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Re: Differences between a V10 and say, a V25-50 firm?

Postby swc65 » Mon May 09, 2011 7:18 pm

Sogui wrote:
UnitarySpace wrote:you should recount sogui. also your denominator is slightly off - career services quoted a participation rate of 85 percent. i'll let you fill in the blanks.


I don't have the numbers with me, 297 got offers. If only 85% of the class participated then we're talking about maybe the bottom 20% of OCI participants not getting job offers.

My primary concern was about the long-term influences of my apathy this semester. Like what a drop from Stone scholar territory to near-median would mean for career prospects. Part of me was convinced that it just wouldn't matter.



I counted 313 offers accepted. So with 404 people participating thats 77% offer rate for EIP participants.

imchuckbass58
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Re: Differences between a V10 and say, a V25-50 firm?

Postby imchuckbass58 » Mon May 09, 2011 7:44 pm

swc65 wrote:
Sogui wrote:
UnitarySpace wrote:you should recount sogui. also your denominator is slightly off - career services quoted a participation rate of 85 percent. i'll let you fill in the blanks.


I don't have the numbers with me, 297 got offers. If only 85% of the class participated then we're talking about maybe the bottom 20% of OCI participants not getting job offers.

My primary concern was about the long-term influences of my apathy this semester. Like what a drop from Stone scholar territory to near-median would mean for career prospects. Part of me was convinced that it just wouldn't matter.



I counted 313 offers accepted. So with 404 people participating thats 77% offer rate for EIP participants.


Just out of curiosity - where are you guys getting these numbers? I'm a CLS 2L and I'd be interested in seeing them. I looked on the EIP website and they're not posted - did they hand them out separately?

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CG614
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Re: Differences between a V10 and say, a V25-50 firm?

Postby CG614 » Mon May 09, 2011 7:51 pm

swc65 wrote:
Sogui wrote:
UnitarySpace wrote:you should recount sogui. also your denominator is slightly off - career services quoted a participation rate of 85 percent. i'll let you fill in the blanks.


I don't have the numbers with me, 297 got offers. If only 85% of the class participated then we're talking about maybe the bottom 20% of OCI participants not getting job offers.

My primary concern was about the long-term influences of my apathy this semester. Like what a drop from Stone scholar territory to near-median would mean for career prospects. Part of me was convinced that it just wouldn't matter.



I counted 313 offers accepted. So with 404 people participating thats 77% offer rate for EIP participants.



Assuming that most all transfers got jobs, that leaves near 90 1Ls that did not get a job. Shit, I am getting off here and getting back to studying Con Law.

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swc65
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Re: Differences between a V10 and say, a V25-50 firm?

Postby swc65 » Mon May 09, 2011 10:57 pm

imchuckbass58 wrote:
swc65 wrote:
Sogui wrote:
UnitarySpace wrote:you should recount sogui. also your denominator is slightly off - career services quoted a participation rate of 85 percent. i'll let you fill in the blanks.


I don't have the numbers with me, 297 got offers. If only 85% of the class participated then we're talking about maybe the bottom 20% of OCI participants not getting job offers.

My primary concern was about the long-term influences of my apathy this semester. Like what a drop from Stone scholar territory to near-median would mean for career prospects. Part of me was convinced that it just wouldn't matter.



I counted 313 offers accepted. So with 404 people participating thats 77% offer rate for EIP participants.


Just out of curiosity - where are you guys getting these numbers? I'm a CLS 2L and I'd be interested in seeing them. I looked on the EIP website and they're not posted - did they hand them out separately?



yeah they gave us hard copies.

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Sogui
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Re: Differences between a V10 and say, a V25-50 firm?

Postby Sogui » Mon May 09, 2011 11:12 pm

imchuckbass58 wrote:
swc65 wrote:
Sogui wrote:
UnitarySpace wrote:you should recount sogui. also your denominator is slightly off - career services quoted a participation rate of 85 percent. i'll let you fill in the blanks.


I don't have the numbers with me, 297 got offers. If only 85% of the class participated then we're talking about maybe the bottom 20% of OCI participants not getting job offers.

My primary concern was about the long-term influences of my apathy this semester. Like what a drop from Stone scholar territory to near-median would mean for career prospects. Part of me was convinced that it just wouldn't matter.



I counted 313 offers accepted. So with 404 people participating thats 77% offer rate for EIP participants.


Just out of curiosity - where are you guys getting these numbers? I'm a CLS 2L and I'd be interested in seeing them. I looked on the EIP website and they're not posted - did they hand them out separately?


404 is the number of 1L's we have right now, but people are citing much larger numbers for 2Ls. I hadn't even thought about transfers. The 1L stats are on the entering class page on CLS's website.

As for doing everything I can for EIP, how would mass mailing do anything for EIP itself?

timbs4339
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Re: Differences between a V10 and say, a V25-50 firm?

Postby timbs4339 » Tue May 10, 2011 2:51 am

It won't do anything for EIP specifically except maybe get you extra screening interviews. However, a number of firms went back to Career Services after EIP and asked for more resumes and transcripts. And we don't know how many firms called back people from the "mass mail" pile without going to OCS, and anything you can do to get your name into as many firms as possible is helpful.

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UnitarySpace
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Re: Differences between a V10 and say, a V25-50 firm?

Postby UnitarySpace » Tue May 10, 2011 3:16 am

(400 1Ls + 80 transfers) * .85 (participation rate) is around 400.

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Re: Differences between a V10 and say, a V25-50 firm?

Postby alumniguy » Tue May 10, 2011 11:06 am

I'll add in my perspective as well. I do agree with most of the information contained in this thread, but some of the information seems a bit misplaced.

First, the Vault survey is not the best way to go about choosing a firm. This has been said. Unlike even U.S. News, the information that produces the Vault survey is entirely based on responses from practicing attorneys. In a way, this could produce an accurate result, but my experience suggests that the majority of partners and associates don't respond to the survey and thus, the low response rate does it in. Furthermore, the survey doesn't allow respondents to rank firms, you simply attach a numerical value (from 1 to 10) based on the prestige of the firm. When you take the survey you cycle through screen after screen of firms (we are talking 100+ firms) and by the time you assign a value to the last firm you've probably forgotten what you've assigned to 70% of the other firms. You don't have to assign a value if you don't know the firm. Thus, what you get is associates assigning values based on previous year's results. For example, "I know Wachtell is the #1 vault firm from last year. I have never worked on a case/deal with Wachtell, but because they have such high PPP and they were #1 last year, I am going to mark them as a 10 for prestige." I do agree that it is a general yardstick for firm prestige, but what most law students should be focusing on is practice areas (if you know what you want to do).

The Chambers guide (the actual guide as opposed to the chambers associates guide/website) is the best resource out there. As others have stated, you can see which firms are actually the best at what they do. So Firm X may have a band 1 ranked M&A practice, but not be ranked in Real Estate. If you really want to do real estate, then it wouldn't make sense to go to Firm X when Firm Y has a much better reputation in that field. This directly plays into exit opportunities (discussed more below). More reputable practices have better clients and better work, which will yield better exit opportunities down the road.

2.For QoL issues, I would turn to the Vault Associate surveys. While not perfect (see low response rate issue above), these surveys are the only measurement of how associates rate their experiences at firms. My experience is that firms encourage their associates to fill out these surveys. A high response rate should yield a relatively accurate picture of firm life.

Also, the Chambers Associates guide is decent here (along with ABL's/Lateral Link's career center). Note that these guides are produced by interviewing existing associates at the various firms. The companies then aggregate data and decide on a "story" to tell about the various firms. They may not be wholly representative.

QoL at bigfirms is less about pure number of hours worked and more about how much an associate can control her/his work. For example, junior associates will undoubtedly work late nights and on weekends and thus, the question to answer is whether the firm allows/encourages associates to work from home on weekends or late nights. Many firms don't care where you work so long as you get your work done, however, other firms expect juniors to be in the office when they work. This is difficult to determine, especially as a law school student, but reaching out/networking with current junior associates is important. One caveat is that this is more of a practice group/partner issue and not generally consistent on a firm wide basis.

3. Exit opportunities. In order for exit opportunities to be an issue, most associates need 3-5 years of experience. Few if any associates that have less than 4-5 years of experience will be lateraling in-house at a client. It is more likely that that associate will lateral to a non-client of the firm. Clients hire from law firms when they have experience working with an associate and have confidence in/trust that associate. Generally, the V10s-20s will offer superior exit opportunities to V30s and above in so far as the opportunities themselves will be better. You are more likely to land at a Fortune 500 company or large bank than if you are at a more prestige firm. The reason is that you've worked on deals/matters that routinely occur at these companies and banks so the theory is that you are more likely to hit the ground running than if you worked at a less prestige firm that did more commodity type work. The other reason is that the people who are in charge of hiring at these places likely worked at the top firms and therefore, they want the "best" people working under them. This may or may not be true, but it is the way that lateral hiring occurs.

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Re: Differences between a V10 and say, a V25-50 firm?

Postby bdubs » Tue May 10, 2011 11:21 am

From a litigation perspective, I can say that the perceived prestige of the firm seems to have very little to with how interesting the firm's cases are. Frequently the partners on cases have existing relationships with particular businesses or in industries that lead them to get the case.

It's hard to predict with certainty which industries or companies will have large scale complex litigation matters, so choose a firm that has ties to an industry or companies that you would want to work with.

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Re: Differences between a V10 and say, a V25-50 firm?

Postby desertlaw » Wed May 18, 2011 2:20 am

When you talk about "exit options" or opportunities, where does someone find this type of information? Is the information you gave just general knowledge within the legal field (that higher Vault firm will lend itself to better exit options)? Is there any way to find out about a specific firm's exit opportunities, especially as I do research for on-campus interviews?

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Re: Differences between a V10 and say, a V25-50 firm?

Postby Renzo » Wed May 18, 2011 7:30 am

desertlaw wrote:When you talk about "exit options" or opportunities, where does someone find this type of information? Is the information you gave just general knowledge within the legal field (that higher Vault firm will lend itself to better exit options)? Is there any way to find out about a specific firm's exit opportunities, especially as I do research for on-campus interviews?


Find out who the firm's big clients are, and what industries the firm caters to. This will give you some idea of the types of contacts you might make that would provide exit options.

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Re: Differences between a V10 and say, a V25-50 firm?

Postby imchuckbass58 » Wed May 18, 2011 9:18 am

Renzo wrote:
desertlaw wrote:When you talk about "exit options" or opportunities, where does someone find this type of information? Is the information you gave just general knowledge within the legal field (that higher Vault firm will lend itself to better exit options)? Is there any way to find out about a specific firm's exit opportunities, especially as I do research for on-campus interviews?


Find out who the firm's big clients are, and what industries the firm caters to. This will give you some idea of the types of contacts you might make that would provide exit options.


This, or:

(1) Find out who has the type of job you want with the types of company you want (

(2) Find out where those people went to law school / worked before.

For instance, if you decided you wanted to be the GC of a tech company in Silicon Valley, pulling their bios using google, linkedin or company websites would reveal that a disproportionate number came from WSGR (other firms too).

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Sogui
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Re: Differences between a V10 and say, a V25-50 firm?

Postby Sogui » Wed May 18, 2011 5:39 pm

More awesome info, I'm definitely Chambers once I'm done with vacation.

For you experienced folk and 2L+ out there, assuming that interviewers in EIP ask the inevitable "where do you see yourself in X years" question- do you think interviewers would prefer to hear a well thought-out & informed plan that doesn't involve you hanging around in biglaw for 6+ years, or would it just be safer to say you want to work in one of the firm's specialty areas for some indefinite/undetermined/vague time period?

Or more simply, when does an estimation of your time-commitment to the firm become "safe"?

imchuckbass58
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Re: Differences between a V10 and say, a V25-50 firm?

Postby imchuckbass58 » Wed May 18, 2011 5:52 pm

Sogui wrote:More awesome info, I'm definitely Chambers once I'm done with vacation.

For you experienced folk and 2L+ out there, assuming that interviewers in EIP ask the inevitable "where do you see yourself in X years" question- do you think interviewers would prefer to hear a well thought-out & informed plan that doesn't involve you hanging around in biglaw for 6+ years, or would it just be safer to say you want to work in one of the firm's specialty areas for some indefinite/undetermined/vague time period?

Or more simply, when does an estimation of your time-commitment to the firm become "safe"?


First of all, it's very rare that you'll get this question. I don't think I got it at all. They really don't expect you to even know what practice areas you're interested in (though if you can articulate a believable interest that's a plus), let along where you'll be in 5 years.

Second, I'm just guessing, but I think you want to give an indeterminate answer. For instance, I would say I probably wanted to practice white collar crime (as an example), and that you think firm X is a great place to get exposure to that practice area because A, B, and C. That doesn't rule out that you may try to be an AUSA, but it doesn't scream "I'm peaceing as soon as I pay off my loans" either. Which is probably right, since nobody realistically knows that at this point.

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Re: Differences between a V10 and say, a V25-50 firm?

Postby alumniguy » Thu May 19, 2011 10:11 am

imchuckbass58 wrote:First of all, it's very rare that you'll get this question. I don't think I got it at all. They really don't expect you to even know what practice areas you're interested in (though if you can articulate a believable interest that's a plus), let along where you'll be in 5 years.

Second, I'm just guessing, but I think you want to give an indeterminate answer. For instance, I would say I probably wanted to practice white collar crime (as an example), and that you think firm X is a great place to get exposure to that practice area because A, B, and C. That doesn't rule out that you may try to be an AUSA, but it doesn't scream "I'm peaceing as soon as I pay off my loans" either. Which is probably right, since nobody realistically knows that at this point.


I also never got this question. Most firms don't need (and many don't really want) their associates sticking around for 5+ years. Partners know that biglaw is a pyramid structure and they probably expect that most associates won't last more than 3-4 years.

It is rare that a 2L legitimately knows what practice area s/he wants to practice. Even if a 2L does know, that person is extremely unlikely to know what the practice actually entails. So, stock answers are the credited response. "I want to do real estate because property was the most interesting class my 1L year. Firm X is a major player in real estate development/finance and I think it will provide great experience as I start my legal career." OR "Your firm works on complex class action lawsuits and I did well in my legal writing class and enjoy research/drafting so I think Firm X would be a good fit for my strengths." Etc.

In my opinion, interviewers are less concerned about the answer and more concerned with whether or not you can clearly convey a message. Important words said in one of my 1Ls classes rings true. When a student was having trouble responding to a question posed by the professor, the professor said, "Make lawyer noises." You need to be confidant and on message during the entire interview.

No one and I repeat, no one is going to remember what any interviewee said by the time you actually get to be a summer associate. Interviews are about presence.

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Re: Differences between a V10 and say, a V25-50 firm?

Postby Renzo » Thu May 19, 2011 7:43 pm

alumniguy wrote:
imchuckbass58 wrote:First of all, it's very rare that you'll get this question. I don't think I got it at all. They really don't expect you to even know what practice areas you're interested in (though if you can articulate a believable interest that's a plus), let along where you'll be in 5 years.

Second, I'm just guessing, but I think you want to give an indeterminate answer. For instance, I would say I probably wanted to practice white collar crime (as an example), and that you think firm X is a great place to get exposure to that practice area because A, B, and C. That doesn't rule out that you may try to be an AUSA, but it doesn't scream "I'm peaceing as soon as I pay off my loans" either. Which is probably right, since nobody realistically knows that at this point.


I also never got this question. Most firms don't need (and many don't really want) their associates sticking around for 5+ years. Partners know that biglaw is a pyramid structure and they probably expect that most associates won't last more than 3-4 years.


This is true, but the whole biglaw pyramid scheme only works if the dupes at the bottom want/believe that they'll be at the top someday. The partnership's paycheck depends on the associates working a zillion hours, and someone who comes into the job knowing they only want to be there a few years doesn't have much incentive to really grind through the hours. And that's why they ask; the question is really, "can we use the fact that you want to be here long term to work you to death?"




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