Any 3Ls get their permanent position without showing grades?

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Anonymous User
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Any 3Ls get their permanent position without showing grades?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Apr 23, 2011 4:05 pm

I'm not talking about big law here since that's one of the least flexible paths for worming your way in due to the customary hiring process imo, but does anyone have success stories about networking into a decent permanent position, maybe with a smaller firm or gov, without having to show a transcript? I'm below median at my school, I have a good government transactional and regulatory summer internship lined up (but not a good chance of it leading to a permanent position), and my grades probably aren't going to do me any favors, so I'm anticipating a tough job search this summer and next school year.

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holdencaulfield
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Re: Any 3Ls get their permanent position without showing grades?

Postby holdencaulfield » Sat Apr 23, 2011 4:21 pm

I got a permanent offer from a firm I clerked for without ever showing them my grades. Didn't take it though.

OldManHunger
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Re: Any 3Ls get their permanent position without showing grades?

Postby OldManHunger » Sat Apr 23, 2011 4:28 pm

.
Last edited by OldManHunger on Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Always Credited
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Re: Any 3Ls get their permanent position without showing grades?

Postby Always Credited » Sat Apr 23, 2011 4:41 pm

OldManHunger wrote:That shit's basically going to haunt you forever. Grades even come up with lateraling. But with enough hustle and networking, I'm sure you'll be able to land something.


smh.

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XxSpyKEx
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Re: Any 3Ls get their permanent position without showing grades?

Postby XxSpyKEx » Sat Apr 23, 2011 6:00 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I'm not talking about big law here since that's one of the least flexible paths for worming your way in due to the customary hiring process imo, but does anyone have success stories about networking into a decent permanent position, maybe with a smaller firm or gov, without having to show a transcript? I'm below median at my school, I have a good government transactional and regulatory summer internship lined up (but not a good chance of it leading to a permanent position), and my grades probably aren't going to do me any favors, so I'm anticipating a tough job search this summer and next school year.


I doubt it happens nowadays at midsize firms. The fall I did OCI (I'm c/o 2011), the CSO at my school was recommending to everyone to send out resumes without listing a GPA and not sending transcripts (which I'm pretty sure was the advice the CSO gave out every year before that -- I don't think they realized exactly how bad the economy was by my 2L fall until after it happened). Basically the advice was to let the school name sell you to midsize firms, and that midsize firms would hire you without caring about your grades because they have a difficult time getting people at schools like this one to apply to their firms... Oh, how times have changed.

But, yeah, I think if you network, it's possible that a small firm or local government will hire you without caring about your grades.

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Re: Any 3Ls get their permanent position without showing grades?

Postby vb007 » Sun Apr 24, 2011 4:03 am

sometimes smaller companies (in-house) don't ask for transcripts.

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Re: Any 3Ls get their permanent position without showing grades?

Postby RVP11 » Sun Apr 24, 2011 9:50 am

OldManHunger wrote:Grades even come up with lateraling.


L...O...L.

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PKSebben
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Re: Any 3Ls get their permanent position without showing grades?

Postby PKSebben » Sun Apr 24, 2011 10:10 am

RVP11 wrote:
OldManHunger wrote:Grades even come up with lateraling.


L...O...L.


This is absolutely true.

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Re: Any 3Ls get their permanent position without showing grades?

Postby 03121202698008 » Sun Apr 24, 2011 10:12 am

RVP11 wrote:
OldManHunger wrote:Grades even come up with lateraling.


L...O...L.


Not sure why this is funny. A DC Market consultant for laterals came to my school and explicitly stated firms were looking for a 3.5 for laterals unless the person had a significant book of business. She said while it didn't matter pre-crash, firms now use it to screen their potential laterals.

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Re: Any 3Ls get their permanent position without showing grades?

Postby pasteurizedmilk » Sun Apr 24, 2011 10:43 am

RVP11 wrote:
OldManHunger wrote:Grades even come up with lateraling.


L...O...L.

I must've missed the joke. Strangely enough, this is true.

Weird field we're in.

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: Any 3Ls get their permanent position without showing grades?

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Sun Apr 24, 2011 11:02 am

I feel comfortable saying that all firms with more than 10 attorneys will want to see your grades unless you have a massive family/client tie to the firm. The use of "all firms" here includes public interest law firms.

Most gov period will want to see them as well (city/state/fed).

Employers will want to see your transcript regardless of whether grades matter because they want to see what courses you took.

But then again, grades always matter.

Also - major law firm laterals have always needed to have excellent academic credentials (or prior big law firm experience) with the exception of a big book of business. I didn't realize it was ever different from that.

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Re: Any 3Ls get their permanent position without showing grades?

Postby Julio_El_Chavo » Sun Apr 24, 2011 11:05 am

blowhard wrote:
RVP11 wrote:
OldManHunger wrote:Grades even come up with lateraling.


L...O...L.


Not sure why this is funny. A DC Market consultant for laterals came to my school and explicitly stated firms were looking for a 3.5 for laterals unless the person had a significant book of business. She said while it didn't matter pre-crash, firms now use it to screen their potential laterals.


what school range?

OldManHunger
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Re: Any 3Ls get their permanent position without showing grades?

Postby OldManHunger » Sun Apr 24, 2011 11:28 am

.
Last edited by OldManHunger on Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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RVP11
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Re: Any 3Ls get their permanent position without showing grades?

Postby RVP11 » Sun Apr 24, 2011 12:14 pm

PKSebben wrote:
RVP11 wrote:
OldManHunger wrote:Grades even come up with lateraling.


L...O...L.


This is absolutely true.


But still funny.

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Re: Any 3Ls get their permanent position without showing grades?

Postby Julio_El_Chavo » Sun Apr 24, 2011 2:16 pm

OldManHunger wrote:
Julio_El_Chavo wrote:what school range?


It probably doesn't matter nearly as much as you're thinking. Grades matter at every level. Someone above mentioned that OCS encourages sending out resumes without GPAs. But this isn't because the name of your school is enough to sell an employer. OCSs make this kind of suggestion out of wishful thinking--the OCS goal is to boost overall employment statistics. OCS would prefer a world where the median and low GPA students weren't beaten out by their high GPA counterparts. It's their mailing policy equivalent of a "no screening" policy at OCI. In reality, though, even at the top schools, employers care--and employers continue to care after graduation, too.


some schools don't even give out real grades

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Re: Any 3Ls get their permanent position without showing grades?

Postby XxSpyKEx » Sun Apr 24, 2011 6:20 pm

Julio_El_Chavo wrote:
OldManHunger wrote:
Julio_El_Chavo wrote:what school range?


It probably doesn't matter nearly as much as you're thinking. Grades matter at every level. Someone above mentioned that OCS encourages sending out resumes without GPAs. But this isn't because the name of your school is enough to sell an employer. OCSs make this kind of suggestion out of wishful thinking--the OCS goal is to boost overall employment statistics. OCS would prefer a world where the median and low GPA students weren't beaten out by their high GPA counterparts. It's their mailing policy equivalent of a "no screening" policy at OCI. In reality, though, even at the top schools, employers care--and employers continue to care after graduation, too.


some schools don't even give out real grades


Yeah, but the only schools that don't give out meaningful grades are Yale and Stanford; at Yale grades most likely don't matter that much. The rest of the schools that don't give out real grades you can still get a somewhat accurate picture of where the person falls in their class.

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Re: Any 3Ls get their permanent position without showing grades?

Postby Julio_El_Chavo » Sun Apr 24, 2011 6:33 pm

XxSpyKEx wrote:
Julio_El_Chavo wrote:
OldManHunger wrote:
Julio_El_Chavo wrote:what school range?


It probably doesn't matter nearly as much as you're thinking. Grades matter at every level. Someone above mentioned that OCS encourages sending out resumes without GPAs. But this isn't because the name of your school is enough to sell an employer. OCSs make this kind of suggestion out of wishful thinking--the OCS goal is to boost overall employment statistics. OCS would prefer a world where the median and low GPA students weren't beaten out by their high GPA counterparts. It's their mailing policy equivalent of a "no screening" policy at OCI. In reality, though, even at the top schools, employers care--and employers continue to care after graduation, too.


some schools don't even give out real grades


Yeah, but the only schools that don't give out meaningful grades are Yale and Stanford; at Yale grades most likely don't matter that much. The rest of the schools that don't give out real grades you can still get a somewhat accurate picture of where the person falls in their class.


LOL @ firms making lateral hiring decisions based on a "somewhat accurate picture" of where a person falls in their law school class.

Also, I understand rejecting someone for below median grades. But it seems a little ridiculous to take a 3.5 over a 3.46 when the entire difference between their GPAs could simply be attributed to the fact that the 3.46 took a few more classes which gave out all B+ grades to everyone.

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Re: Any 3Ls get their permanent position without showing grades?

Postby 03121202698008 » Sun Apr 24, 2011 7:10 pm

Julio_El_Chavo wrote:
blowhard wrote:
RVP11 wrote:
OldManHunger wrote:Grades even come up with lateraling.


L...O...L.


Not sure why this is funny. A DC Market consultant for laterals came to my school and explicitly stated firms were looking for a 3.5 for laterals unless the person had a significant book of business. She said while it didn't matter pre-crash, firms now use it to screen their potential laterals.


what school range?


Michigan. She deals with BigLaw transfers from T14 schools, transferring from BigLaw to BigLaw. Her GPA was what they look for from all T14 (that give grades).

To be clear it's not an absolute floor but a strong preference. They'll drop if you have substantial business or something special they want.

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thexfactor
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Re: Any 3Ls get their permanent position without showing grades?

Postby thexfactor » Sun Apr 24, 2011 10:03 pm

just curious, what is 3.5 at michshitgan? top 1/3? 25%?

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Re: Any 3Ls get their permanent position without showing grades?

Postby XxSpyKEx » Sun Apr 24, 2011 10:43 pm

Julio_El_Chavo wrote:
XxSpyKEx wrote:
Julio_El_Chavo wrote:
OldManHunger wrote:It probably doesn't matter nearly as much as you're thinking. Grades matter at every level. Someone above mentioned that OCS encourages sending out resumes without GPAs. But this isn't because the name of your school is enough to sell an employer. OCSs make this kind of suggestion out of wishful thinking--the OCS goal is to boost overall employment statistics. OCS would prefer a world where the median and low GPA students weren't beaten out by their high GPA counterparts. It's their mailing policy equivalent of a "no screening" policy at OCI. In reality, though, even at the top schools, employers care--and employers continue to care after graduation, too.


some schools don't even give out real grades


Yeah, but the only schools that don't give out meaningful grades are Yale and Stanford; at Yale grades most likely don't matter that much. The rest of the schools that don't give out real grades you can still get a somewhat accurate picture of where the person falls in their class.


Also, I understand rejecting someone for below median grades. But it seems a little ridiculous to take a 3.5 over a 3.46 when the entire difference between their GPAs could simply be attributed to the fact that the 3.46 took a few more classes which gave out all B+ grades to everyone.


What the hell are you talking about?

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Re: Any 3Ls get their permanent position without showing grades?

Postby 03121202698008 » Sun Apr 24, 2011 11:23 pm

thexfactor wrote:just curious, what is 3.5 at michshitgan? top 1/3? 25%?


About top 25%

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lisjjen
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Re: Any 3Ls get their permanent position without showing grades?

Postby lisjjen » Mon Apr 25, 2011 12:17 am

blowhard wrote:
thexfactor wrote:just curious, what is 3.5 at michshitgan? top 1/3? 25%?


About top 25%


Jesus Christ. This market makes me lose sleep sometimes, and I haven't even matriculated yet.

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Re: Any 3Ls get their permanent position without showing grades?

Postby Julio_El_Chavo » Mon Apr 25, 2011 12:58 am

XxSpyKEx wrote:
Also, I understand rejecting someone for below median grades. But it seems a little ridiculous to take a 3.5 over a 3.46 when the entire difference between their GPAs could simply be attributed to the fact that the 3.46 took a few more classes which gave out all B+ grades to everyone.


What the hell are you talking about?


Oh, I was responding to the post about the 3.5 grade cutoff.

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Re: Any 3Ls get their permanent position without showing grades?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Apr 25, 2011 1:19 am

My firm asked for updated transcripts. My 2L grades were horrendous. Got the offer and never heard anything about grades. Honestly, I'd be shocked if anyone on the hiring committee even looked at my grades.

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Re: Any 3Ls get their permanent position without showing grades?

Postby RVP11 » Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:02 am

lisjjen wrote:
blowhard wrote:
thexfactor wrote:just curious, what is 3.5 at michshitgan? top 1/3? 25%?


About top 25%


Jesus Christ. This market makes me lose sleep sometimes, and I haven't even matriculated yet.


This is what ONE LADY said about BigLaw to BigLaw lateral moves. And I'm sure someone with a 3.4 who's at a V10 would still be a better lateral candidate (for other BigLaw firms) than the 3.6 who's at a V50-V100. She probably just threw out some arbitrary "high" GPA.




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