Public Interest vs. BigLaw

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vanwinkle
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Re: Public Interest vs. BigLaw

Postby vanwinkle » Sat Apr 23, 2011 1:47 pm

freddie11 wrote:how hard is it to go from pi to biglaw?

From what I understand, for the most part it's nearly impossible. The few "PI" jobs that allow this kind of move are the kind that are so hard to get that you could've gotten prestigious BigLaw in the first place. For example, DOJ/SEC/FTC attorneys can move to BigLaw.

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Veyron
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Re: Public Interest vs. BigLaw

Postby Veyron » Sat Apr 23, 2011 2:16 pm

curiousgeorges wrote:I had to read Veyron's post a couple of times to be sure I'd read it right. You think Biglaw is delivering "valuable" services to clients because you bill those services out at a lot per hour, and that PI means your work isn't valuable to anyone?

The first half of that is spoken like someone with no serious experience in BigLaw. Come back after your third month clicking through documents in Concordance looking for all documents containing one of six words and share with us how valuable you think your services are. Spend a couple of weeks searching for a case that doesn't exist (but the partner is SURE that she came across ten years ago!) that, if you found it, would be put in a footnote of page 45 of the summary judgment brief to prove an inane point of law. Enjoy running up a client's bill when your firm is in an ego match with opposing counsel over whether proper service was made. And be sure to come back to tell us how "valuable" your work has been.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but only a fraction of the work you'll do in biglaw, especially as a junior/midlevel associate, will generate value to anyone but the firm.

And, when you're ready to leave your firm after years of delivering this sort of value to society, be sure to explain to the public interest or government organizations with which you're interviewing that you now feel ready to be "not a real lawyer" and do work that "isn't valuable to anyone" without feeling guilty. Explain that now that you have the ratification of having "billed" $400/hour to do very high-end legal research and write discovery motions, you now feel that you can stoop to the level of [prosecuting criminals, defending criminals, keeping tenants from being evicted, fighting the city's eminent domain efforts, preserving the death penalty, abolishing the death penalty, fighting for or against same-sex marriage, keeping immigrants from deportation, or whatever your pet cause is.] They'll love your dedication, and the PI offers will come rolling in!


Spoken like someone who has no experience using a firm from the client's side.

The government unfairly denying benefits to someone is the government doing something wrong to them. Unfairly denying someone unemployment, or welfare, or social security is the same kind of thing as unfairly denying someone their property rights.


Well then maybe you could say that the fundamental difference is that few on my side would see it that way. We could get into the whole loop about that being legalized theft just like eminent domain, but I presume you are already well acquainted with the arguments. So, perhaps from your perspective there is no difference but from ours there certainly is.

sullidop
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Re: Public Interest vs. BigLaw

Postby sullidop » Sat Apr 23, 2011 2:22 pm

This thread has reaffirmed my commitment to transactions.

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Veyron
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Re: Public Interest vs. BigLaw

Postby Veyron » Sat Apr 23, 2011 2:24 pm

sullidop wrote:This thread has reaffirmed my commitment to transactions.


That's the spirit!

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reasonable_man
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Re: Public Interest vs. BigLaw

Postby reasonable_man » Sat Apr 23, 2011 2:52 pm

Veyron wrote:
coldshoulder wrote:I'm extremely torn. Part of me wants the prestige and money associated with big law, the career prospects, the city living.
But a huge part of me (from my sociology background), is interested in using a legal degree to actual make a difference in the community, but still be able to pay off loans and live well.

This is probably a question asked constantly, I just need some guidance. I feel like spiritual/emotional fulfillment might be worth more than economic fulfillment.
I suppose the best question is this, what are the best types of public interest jobs, and what's the best way to reach them? And what is the best method of paying off debt with a relatively low paying job?

Thanks guys, I'm a total newb to the PI world, my gratitude in advance for your replies.


This is not a problem you are likely to face.


Agreed/

pasteurizedmilk
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Re: Public Interest vs. BigLaw

Postby pasteurizedmilk » Sat Apr 23, 2011 3:10 pm

Veyron wrote:
curiousgeorges wrote:I had to read Veyron's post a couple of times to be sure I'd read it right. You think Biglaw is delivering "valuable" services to clients because you bill those services out at a lot per hour, and that PI means your work isn't valuable to anyone?

The first half of that is spoken like someone with no serious experience in BigLaw. Come back after your third month clicking through documents in Concordance looking for all documents containing one of six words and share with us how valuable you think your services are. Spend a couple of weeks searching for a case that doesn't exist (but the partner is SURE that she came across ten years ago!) that, if you found it, would be put in a footnote of page 45 of the summary judgment brief to prove an inane point of law. Enjoy running up a client's bill when your firm is in an ego match with opposing counsel over whether proper service was made. And be sure to come back to tell us how "valuable" your work has been.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but only a fraction of the work you'll do in biglaw, especially as a junior/midlevel associate, will generate value to anyone but the firm.

And, when you're ready to leave your firm after years of delivering this sort of value to society, be sure to explain to the public interest or government organizations with which you're interviewing that you now feel ready to be "not a real lawyer" and do work that "isn't valuable to anyone" without feeling guilty. Explain that now that you have the ratification of having "billed" $400/hour to do very high-end legal research and write discovery motions, you now feel that you can stoop to the level of [prosecuting criminals, defending criminals, keeping tenants from being evicted, fighting the city's eminent domain efforts, preserving the death penalty, abolishing the death penalty, fighting for or against same-sex marriage, keeping immigrants from deportation, or whatever your pet cause is.] They'll love your dedication, and the PI offers will come rolling in!


Spoken like someone who has no experience using a firm from the client's side.


Not to put too fine a point on it, but only a fraction of the work you'll do in biglaw, especially as a junior/midlevel associate, will generate value to anyone but the firm.
This seems like something that is best evaluated by those within the firm, not the clients.

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AreJay711
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Re: Public Interest vs. BigLaw

Postby AreJay711 » Sat Apr 23, 2011 3:20 pm

pasteurizedmilk wrote:
Veyron wrote:
curiousgeorges wrote:I had to read Veyron's post a couple of times to be sure I'd read it right. You think Biglaw is delivering "valuable" services to clients because you bill those services out at a lot per hour, and that PI means your work isn't valuable to anyone?

The first half of that is spoken like someone with no serious experience in BigLaw. Come back after your third month clicking through documents in Concordance looking for all documents containing one of six words and share with us how valuable you think your services are. Spend a couple of weeks searching for a case that doesn't exist (but the partner is SURE that she came across ten years ago!) that, if you found it, would be put in a footnote of page 45 of the summary judgment brief to prove an inane point of law. Enjoy running up a client's bill when your firm is in an ego match with opposing counsel over whether proper service was made. And be sure to come back to tell us how "valuable" your work has been.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but only a fraction of the work you'll do in biglaw, especially as a junior/midlevel associate, will generate value to anyone but the firm.

And, when you're ready to leave your firm after years of delivering this sort of value to society, be sure to explain to the public interest or government organizations with which you're interviewing that you now feel ready to be "not a real lawyer" and do work that "isn't valuable to anyone" without feeling guilty. Explain that now that you have the ratification of having "billed" $400/hour to do very high-end legal research and write discovery motions, you now feel that you can stoop to the level of [prosecuting criminals, defending criminals, keeping tenants from being evicted, fighting the city's eminent domain efforts, preserving the death penalty, abolishing the death penalty, fighting for or against same-sex marriage, keeping immigrants from deportation, or whatever your pet cause is.] They'll love your dedication, and the PI offers will come rolling in!


Spoken like someone who has no experience using a firm from the client's side.


Not to put too fine a point on it, but only a fraction of the work you'll do in biglaw, especially as a junior/midlevel associate, will generate value to anyone but the firm.
This seems like something that is best evaluated by those within the firm, not the clients.


Neither the clients or the firm pay for something that is not of value to them. If the clients are paying the firm for the work, they must get more value out of the work than they are paying for it or they would be better off not doing it. Same deal with the firm and the associate directly.

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Borhas
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Re: Public Interest vs. BigLaw

Postby Borhas » Sat Apr 23, 2011 3:22 pm

yeah, after all why would a rational actor ever make a mistake

/trolling

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AreJay711
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Re: Public Interest vs. BigLaw

Postby AreJay711 » Sat Apr 23, 2011 3:23 pm

Borhas wrote:yeah, after all why would a rational actor ever make a mistake

/trolling


A few times but not enough for a whole industry.

pasteurizedmilk
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Re: Public Interest vs. BigLaw

Postby pasteurizedmilk » Sat Apr 23, 2011 3:38 pm

AreJay711 wrote:Neither the clients or the firm pay for something that is not of value to them. If the clients are paying the firm for the work, they must get more value out of the work than they are paying for it or they would be better off not doing it.

Sure - the client could easily get more value out of the work than not. But does this inherently mean that every junior associate's task furthers the interests of the client? Of course not.

Same deal with the firm and the associate directly.
The firm doesn't pay by the billable hour. You're not arguing that partners and senior associates will only assign valuable work to juniors b/c they can't afford to waste the fixed expense of juniors, are you?

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OperaSoprano
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Re: Public Interest vs. BigLaw

Postby OperaSoprano » Sat Apr 23, 2011 3:39 pm

AreJay711 wrote:
Borhas wrote:yeah, after all why would a rational actor ever make a mistake

/trolling


A few times but not enough for a whole industry.


Correct me, because I am far from an expert on this, but isn't there some movement toward flat fee or alternate structuring? Maybe because of this type of problem? I don't think anyone disputes the associate's potential value to the firm, but I could see clients pushing back if they feel their resources aren't being used efficiently.

PI orgs obviously don't have the same kind of structure, but there is an immediate sense of gratification if you are able to help someone. I saw this even as an intern, though unfortunately there is a lot of waiting, so often the most you can do is let clients know the attorney is working to assist them with [whatever the legal issue is], and someone is paying attention. It's frustrating not to be able to accomplish the goal right away (or at all, in many cases), but I often saw that just the listening made a difference to clients. They were extremely happy to be there, and frequently thanked me, even though I wanted to tell them there was so little I could personally do yet.

I did get the sense that every hour my attorney worked (other than for things like staff meetings, which were indirectly related: ie: discussing cases) was going straight to the benefit of clients.

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Veyron
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Re: Public Interest vs. BigLaw

Postby Veyron » Sat Apr 23, 2011 3:41 pm

OperaSoprano wrote:
AreJay711 wrote:
Borhas wrote:yeah, after all why would a rational actor ever make a mistake

/trolling


A few times but not enough for a whole industry.


Correct me, because I am far from an expert on this, but isn't there some movement toward flat fee or alternate structuring? Maybe because of this type of problem? I don't think anyone disputes the associate's potential value to the firm, but I could see clients pushing back if they feel their resources aren't being used efficiently.

PI orgs obviously don't have the same kind of structure, but there is an immediate sense of gratification if you are able to help someone. I saw this even as an intern, though unfortunately there is a lot of waiting, so often the most you can do is let clients know the attorney is working to assist them with [whatever the legal issue is], and someone is paying attention. It's frustrating not to be able to accomplish the goal right away (or at all, in many cases), but I often saw that just the listening made a difference to clients. They were extremely happy to be there, and frequently thanked me, even though I wanted to tell them there was so little I could personally do yet.


I think that there is some evidence that clients were overpaying for junior associates but the move away from the billable hour hasn't really been as severe as people were projecting.

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Borhas
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Re: Public Interest vs. BigLaw

Postby Borhas » Sat Apr 23, 2011 4:01 pm

AreJay711 wrote:
Borhas wrote:yeah, after all why would a rational actor ever make a mistake

/trolling


A few times but not enough for a whole industry.


industry customs can be mistakes, and that's how new customs or industries can supplant them

pasteurizedmilk
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Re: Public Interest vs. BigLaw

Postby pasteurizedmilk » Sat Apr 23, 2011 4:29 pm

AreJay711 wrote:
Borhas wrote:yeah, after all why would a rational actor ever make a mistake

/trolling


A few times but not enough for a whole industry.

You weren't paying very close attention circa 2007-2008 were you? :shock:

mettasutta
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Re: Public Interest vs. BigLaw

Postby mettasutta » Sun Apr 24, 2011 3:32 pm

OperaSoprano wrote:
Veyron wrote:^ But what would NYC DO without wall street. . . why it would practically be CHICAGO.

I'm sure that's in no ones best interests.


:lol: I love my city pretty much unconditionally, though I certainly know where its wealth is coming from. I don't believe Wall Street shouldn't exist, just that investment vehicles need proper oversight to prevent another meltdown. Deregulation is the big problem IMO, and the historical approach to risk. I know you probably will disagree if you are conservative, and I don't want to derail the thread too much. I am glad we've shown the OP there are different avenues to PI work, and we've given OP a range of perspectives on the issue. Whatever the position in question, s/he'll need to show commitment to that cause, and be able to show connection/genuine interest in the work. There are a lot of rewards to this, from the satisfaction of a career you care about, to having time to pursue other interests/spend time with family. There is great respect for work/life balance, and in surveys, PI and government lawyers are constantly the happiest.


Interesting...where did you find these studies?

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OperaSoprano
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Re: Public Interest vs. BigLaw

Postby OperaSoprano » Sun Apr 24, 2011 5:54 pm

mettasutta wrote:
OperaSoprano wrote:
Veyron wrote:^ But what would NYC DO without wall street. . . why it would practically be CHICAGO.

I'm sure that's in no ones best interests.


:lol: I love my city pretty much unconditionally, though I certainly know where its wealth is coming from. I don't believe Wall Street shouldn't exist, just that investment vehicles need proper oversight to prevent another meltdown. Deregulation is the big problem IMO, and the historical approach to risk. I know you probably will disagree if you are conservative, and I don't want to derail the thread too much. I am glad we've shown the OP there are different avenues to PI work, and we've given OP a range of perspectives on the issue. Whatever the position in question, s/he'll need to show commitment to that cause, and be able to show connection/genuine interest in the work. There are a lot of rewards to this, from the satisfaction of a career you care about, to having time to pursue other interests/spend time with family. There is great respect for work/life balance, and in surveys, PI and government lawyers are constantly the happiest.


Interesting...where did you find these studies?


Some good info here:

According to a Michigan Law survey some years back, after five years of practice, 32% of attorneys in private practice said they were very satisfied with their careers. 48% of corporate counsel said the same, as did 67% of government attorneys and 78% of public interest attorneys. It almost seems inversely proportionate to the amount of money they must have been making... Info comes from note 99, on page 16 of this: http://www.vallexfund.com/download/Bein ... Member.pdf

I'd love to see newer studies and I'll go poking around when I have more time (I remember general terms, rather than specifics, but would like to track how actual numbers may have changed.)

Also quite interesting: http://www.law.duke.edu/curriculum/pdf/ ... lawyer.pdf (a better impassioned defense than I could give for "why PI").

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Veyron
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Re: Public Interest vs. BigLaw

Postby Veyron » Sun Apr 24, 2011 8:07 pm

-

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JPrezy87
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Re: Public Interest vs. BigLaw

Postby JPrezy87 » Sun Apr 24, 2011 11:24 pm

OperaSoprano wrote:
mettasutta wrote:
OperaSoprano wrote:
Veyron wrote:^ But what would NYC DO without wall street. . . why it would practically be CHICAGO.

I'm sure that's in no ones best interests.


:lol: I love my city pretty much unconditionally, though I certainly know where its wealth is coming from. I don't believe Wall Street shouldn't exist, just that investment vehicles need proper oversight to prevent another meltdown. Deregulation is the big problem IMO, and the historical approach to risk. I know you probably will disagree if you are conservative, and I don't want to derail the thread too much. I am glad we've shown the OP there are different avenues to PI work, and we've given OP a range of perspectives on the issue. Whatever the position in question, s/he'll need to show commitment to that cause, and be able to show connection/genuine interest in the work. There are a lot of rewards to this, from the satisfaction of a career you care about, to having time to pursue other interests/spend time with family. There is great respect for work/life balance, and in surveys, PI and government lawyers are constantly the happiest.


Interesting...where did you find these studies?


Some good info here:

According to a Michigan Law survey some years back, after five years of practice, 32% of attorneys in private practice said they were very satisfied with their careers. 48% of corporate counsel said the same, as did 67% of government attorneys and 78% of public interest attorneys. It almost seems inversely proportionate to the amount of money they must have been making... Info comes from note 99, on page 16 of this: http://www.vallexfund.com/download/Bein ... Member.pdf

I'd love to see newer studies and I'll go poking around when I have more time (I remember general terms, rather than specifics, but would like to track how actual numbers may have changed.)

Also quite interesting: http://www.law.duke.edu/curriculum/pdf/ ... lawyer.pdf (a better impassioned defense than I could give for "why PI").


Hmmm...im not at all surprised by the stats...people who go into private law often enter the legal profession solely for the money, while government and public service lawyers actually pursue a career based on their likes and passions, the morale of the story is: all future lawyers, make your career more than about the pursuit of legal tender :).

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Veyron
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Re: Public Interest vs. BigLaw

Postby Veyron » Mon Apr 25, 2011 1:03 am

[/quote]

Some good info here:

According to a Michigan Law survey some years back, after five years of practice, 32% of attorneys in private practice said they were very satisfied with their careers. 48% of corporate counsel said the same, as did 67% of government attorneys and 78% of public interest attorneys. It almost seems inversely proportionate to the amount of money they must have been making... Info comes from note 99, on page 16 of this: http://www.vallexfund.com/download/Bein ... Member.pdf

I'd love to see newer studies and I'll go poking around when I have more time (I remember general terms, rather than specifics, but would like to track how actual numbers may have changed.)

Also quite interesting: http://www.law.duke.edu/curriculum/pdf/ ... lawyer.pdf (a better impassioned defense than I could give for "why PI").[/quote]

Hmmm...im not at all surprised by the stats...people who go into private law often enter the legal profession solely for the money, while government and public service lawyers actually pursue a career based on their likes and passions, the morale of the story is: all future lawyers, make your career more than about the pursuit of legal tender :).[/quote]

And here all this time I thought that people went into PI because they couldn't get biglaw. The more you know. *Scratches head*

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JPrezy87
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Re: Public Interest vs. BigLaw

Postby JPrezy87 » Mon Apr 25, 2011 1:42 am

OperaSoprano wrote:
mettasutta wrote:
OperaSoprano wrote:
Veyron wrote:^ But what would NYC DO without wall street. . . why it would practically be CHICAGO.

I'm sure that's in no ones best interests.


:lol: I love my city pretty much unconditionally, though I certainly know where its wealth is coming from. I don't believe Wall Street shouldn't exist, just that investment vehicles need proper oversight to prevent another meltdown. Deregulation is the big problem IMO, and the historical approach to risk. I know you probably will disagree if you are conservative, and I don't want to derail the thread too much. I am glad we've shown the OP there are different avenues to PI work, and we've given OP a range of perspectives on the issue. Whatever the position in question, s/he'll need to show commitment to that cause, and be able to show connection/genuine interest in the work. There are a lot of rewards to this, from the satisfaction of a career you care about, to having time to pursue other interests/spend time with family. There is great respect for work/life balance, and in surveys, PI and government lawyers are constantly the happiest.


Interesting...where did you find these studies?


Some good info here:

According to a Michigan Law survey some years back, after five years of practice, 32% of attorneys in private practice said they were very satisfied with their careers. 48% of corporate counsel said the same, as did 67% of government attorneys and 78% of public interest attorneys. It almost seems inversely proportionate to the amount of money they must have been making... Info comes from note 99, on page 16 of this: http://www.vallexfund.com/download/Bein ... Member.pdf

I'd love to see newer studies and I'll go poking around when I have more time (I remember general terms, rather than specifics, but would like to track how actual numbers may have changed.)

Also quite interesting: http://www.law.duke.edu/curriculum/pdf/ ... lawyer.pdf (a better impassioned defense than I could give for "why PI"). Hmmm...im not at all surprised by the stats...people who go into private law often enter the legal profession solely for the money, while government and public service lawyers actually pursue a career based on their likes and passions, the morale of the story is: all future lawyers, make your career more than about the pursuit of legal tender :).
And here all this time I thought that people went into PI because they couldn't get biglaw. The more you know. *Scratches head*


No..that's not ALWAYS the case lol...oh..and learn how to quote :).

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Veyron
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Re: Public Interest vs. BigLaw

Postby Veyron » Mon Apr 25, 2011 2:55 am

[/quote]

No..that's not ALWAYS the case lol...oh..and learn how to quote :).[/quote]

The more you know. *Scratches head*

whymeohgodno
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Re: Public Interest vs. BigLaw

Postby whymeohgodno » Mon Apr 25, 2011 2:57 am

OperaSoprano wrote:
mettasutta wrote:
OperaSoprano wrote:
Veyron wrote:^ But what would NYC DO without wall street. . . why it would practically be CHICAGO.

I'm sure that's in no ones best interests.


:lol: I love my city pretty much unconditionally, though I certainly know where its wealth is coming from. I don't believe Wall Street shouldn't exist, just that investment vehicles need proper oversight to prevent another meltdown. Deregulation is the big problem IMO, and the historical approach to risk. I know you probably will disagree if you are conservative, and I don't want to derail the thread too much. I am glad we've shown the OP there are different avenues to PI work, and we've given OP a range of perspectives on the issue. Whatever the position in question, s/he'll need to show commitment to that cause, and be able to show connection/genuine interest in the work. There are a lot of rewards to this, from the satisfaction of a career you care about, to having time to pursue other interests/spend time with family. There is great respect for work/life balance, and in surveys, PI and government lawyers are constantly the happiest.


Interesting...where did you find these studies?


Some good info here:

According to a Michigan Law survey some years back, after five years of practice, 32% of attorneys in private practice said they were very satisfied with their careers. 48% of corporate counsel said the same, as did 67% of government attorneys and 78% of public interest attorneys. It almost seems inversely proportionate to the amount of money they must have been making... Info comes from note 99, on page 16 of this: http://www.vallexfund.com/download/Bein ... Member.pdf

I'd love to see newer studies and I'll go poking around when I have more time (I remember general terms, rather than specifics, but would like to track how actual numbers may have changed.)

Also quite interesting: http://www.law.duke.edu/curriculum/pdf/ ... lawyer.pdf (a better impassioned defense than I could give for "why PI").


This probably says more about the type of people that self select into PI vs those who self select into biglaw.

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bilbobaggins
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Re: Public Interest vs. BigLaw

Postby bilbobaggins » Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:35 pm

AreJay711 wrote:
Borhas wrote:yeah, after all why would a rational actor ever make a mistake

/trolling


A few times but not enough for a whole industry.


lol, but every market crash ever




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