Starting at a Firm after Not summering there

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Drewtheman84
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Starting at a Firm after Not summering there

Postby Drewtheman84 » Sun Apr 17, 2011 5:05 pm

I am working in Biglaw summer and I'm considering 3L OCI. I know it's premature, but I understand that plenty of people end up deciding to take offers from a different firm than the one that they worked at during 2L summer. Is there anyone here that decided that they didn't like their 2L summer and took another offer. I understand that there's great risk in doing so, but was it awkward telling your 2L summer firm that you were leaving? Was it difficult to join a class that is 3 months ahead of you both in working at the firm and relationships among one another? Thanks!

Sup Kid
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Re: Starting at a Firm after Not summering there

Postby Sup Kid » Sun Apr 17, 2011 5:25 pm

Drewtheman84 wrote:I understand that plenty of people end up deciding to take offers from a different firm than the one that they worked at during 2L summer.

Maybe in 2006/2007, but these days very few firms do 3L OCI (unless you're at HYS, and even then its not that many).

Edit: For example, I just checked the NALP forms of the V5:
- Wachtell had 0 3Ls last year and 0 this year.
- Cravath had 0 last year, and 2 this year.
- S&C had 0 last year and 7 this year (with a total class of over 135).
- Skadden had 0 last year and 0 this year.
- DPW had 1 last year and 0 this year.

Drewtheman84
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Re: Starting at a Firm after Not summering there

Postby Drewtheman84 » Sun Apr 17, 2011 5:50 pm

Sup Kid wrote:
Drewtheman84 wrote:I understand that plenty of people end up deciding to take offers from a different firm than the one that they worked at during 2L summer.

Maybe in 2006/2007, but these days very few firms do 3L OCI (unless you're at HYS, and even then its not that many).

Edit: For example, I just checked the NALP forms of the V5:
- Wachtell had 0 3Ls last year and 0 this year.
- Cravath had 0 last year, and 2 this year.
- S&C had 0 last year and 7 this year (with a total class of over 135).
- Skadden had 0 last year and 0 this year.
- DPW had 1 last year and 0 this year.


I suppose I was speaking in pre-ITE terms. I don't go to HYS and a few V50 firms were at least interviewing 3Ls. I'm not sure if any were hired, but they definitely had interview schedules. Also, I know of at least two V50s that under-hired for there 2L summer classes and looked at hiring 3Ls. Again, I don't know the success rate at my school with those firms.

Nonetheless, things seem to be picking up (I know, things will never be the same...) so there is certainly a chance, however slim.

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RVP11
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Re: Starting at a Firm after Not summering there

Postby RVP11 » Sun Apr 17, 2011 5:56 pm

Sup Kid wrote:
Drewtheman84 wrote:I understand that plenty of people end up deciding to take offers from a different firm than the one that they worked at during 2L summer.

Maybe in 2006/2007, but these days very few firms do 3L OCI (unless you're at HYS, and even then its not that many).

Edit: For example, I just checked the NALP forms of the V5:
- Wachtell had 0 3Ls last year and 0 this year.
- Cravath had 0 last year, and 2 this year.
- S&C had 0 last year and 7 this year (with a total class of over 135).
- Skadden had 0 last year and 0 this year.
- DPW had 1 last year and 0 this year.


Isn't that a list of 3Ls who are spending the SUMMER there, though? So not necessarily how many are starting full time. Spending your 3L summer with a firm before you go to clerk is a different thing than starting at the firm in September/October as a first year associate.

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IzziesGal
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Re: Starting at a Firm after Not summering there

Postby IzziesGal » Sun Apr 17, 2011 6:20 pm

RVP11 wrote:
Sup Kid wrote:
Drewtheman84 wrote:I understand that plenty of people end up deciding to take offers from a different firm than the one that they worked at during 2L summer.

Maybe in 2006/2007, but these days very few firms do 3L OCI (unless you're at HYS, and even then its not that many).

Edit: For example, I just checked the NALP forms of the V5:
- Wachtell had 0 3Ls last year and 0 this year.
- Cravath had 0 last year, and 2 this year.
- S&C had 0 last year and 7 this year (with a total class of over 135).
- Skadden had 0 last year and 0 this year.
- DPW had 1 last year and 0 this year.


Isn't that a list of 3Ls who are spending the SUMMER there, though? So not necessarily how many are starting full time. Spending your 3L summer with a firm before you go to clerk is a different thing than starting at the firm in September/October as a first year associate.


I'm super confused about this. How do you spend 3L summer at a firm if you're studying for and taking the bar during that time?

Also, I was going to suggest that if you plan on clerking, it might be easier for you to switch firms as a 3L at OCI if you have that on your resume. Firms that might not have looked at you before may be interested once you have accepted a clerkship offer (although I don't know about the timing of the clerkship offers with OCI).

Anonymous Loser
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Re: Starting at a Firm after Not summering there

Postby Anonymous Loser » Sun Apr 17, 2011 6:28 pm

RVP11 wrote:
Sup Kid wrote:
Drewtheman84 wrote:I understand that plenty of people end up deciding to take offers from a different firm than the one that they worked at during 2L summer.

Maybe in 2006/2007, but these days very few firms do 3L OCI (unless you're at HYS, and even then its not that many).

Edit: For example, I just checked the NALP forms of the V5:
- Wachtell had 0 3Ls last year and 0 this year.
- Cravath had 0 last year, and 2 this year.
- S&C had 0 last year and 7 this year (with a total class of over 135).
- Skadden had 0 last year and 0 this year.
- DPW had 1 last year and 0 this year.


Isn't that a list of 3Ls who are spending the SUMMER there, though? So not necessarily how many are starting full time. Spending your 3L summer with a firm before you go to clerk is a different thing than starting at the firm in September/October as a first year associate.



The 3L figure is not useful here. What you want is the number of entry-level hires that were not previous summer associates. The number in parentheses indicates the number of hires that were previous summer associates; obviously any difference between this number and the number of entry-level hires is attributable to persons who had not worked there as summer associates.

Sup Kid
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Re: Starting at a Firm after Not summering there

Postby Sup Kid » Sun Apr 17, 2011 6:46 pm

Anonymous Loser wrote:
RVP11 wrote:
Sup Kid wrote:
Drewtheman84 wrote:I understand that plenty of people end up deciding to take offers from a different firm than the one that they worked at during 2L summer.

Maybe in 2006/2007, but these days very few firms do 3L OCI (unless you're at HYS, and even then its not that many).

Edit: For example, I just checked the NALP forms of the V5:
- Wachtell had 0 3Ls last year and 0 this year.
- Cravath had 0 last year, and 2 this year.
- S&C had 0 last year and 7 this year (with a total class of over 135).
- Skadden had 0 last year and 0 this year.
- DPW had 1 last year and 0 this year.


Isn't that a list of 3Ls who are spending the SUMMER there, though? So not necessarily how many are starting full time. Spending your 3L summer with a firm before you go to clerk is a different thing than starting at the firm in September/October as a first year associate.



The 3L figure is not useful here. What you want is the number of entry-level hires that were not previous summer associates. The number in parentheses indicates the number of hires that were previous summer associates; obviously any difference between this number and the number of entry-level hires is attributable to persons who had not worked there as summer associates.

Good point, but overall the figures are very similar, in that they are negligible, especially considering these firms, excluding Wachtell, have some of the largest classes. The entry-level, non-SA figures of these firms (all offices combined), from last year:

- Wachtell: 0
- Cravath: 0
- S&C: 2
- Skadden: 3
- DPW: 3

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RVP11
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Re: Starting at a Firm after Not summering there

Postby RVP11 » Sun Apr 17, 2011 7:34 pm

But then aren't we understating the number of non-SA people coming in?

There could be a lot of people who did a 2L SA at a V10 firm but are doing something else after law school.

I mean: 100 - 10 + 10 = 100

Anonymous Loser
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Re: Starting at a Firm after Not summering there

Postby Anonymous Loser » Sun Apr 17, 2011 8:06 pm

RVP11 wrote:But then aren't we understating the number of non-SA people coming in?

There could be a lot of people who did a 2L SA at a V10 firm but are doing something else after law school.

I mean: 100 - 10 + 10 = 100


I'm not sure if I understand what you are trying to say. The figures break down entry-level, post-clerkship, and lateral hires, and in each category, the figures indicate how many of those hires were previously summer associates at that particular firm. How could the number of hires that were not previously summer associates be understated?

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RVP11
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Re: Starting at a Firm after Not summering there

Postby RVP11 » Sun Apr 17, 2011 8:20 pm

Anonymous Loser wrote:
RVP11 wrote:But then aren't we understating the number of non-SA people coming in?

There could be a lot of people who did a 2L SA at a V10 firm but are doing something else after law school.

I mean: 100 - 10 + 10 = 100


I'm not sure if I understand what you are trying to say. The figures break down entry-level, post-clerkship, and lateral hires, and in each category, the figures indicate how many of those hires were previously summer associates at that particular firm. How could the number of hires that were not previously summer associates be understated?


I missed that. Sorry - didn't have NALP in front of me.

Anonymous User
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Re: Starting at a Firm after Not summering there

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Apr 17, 2011 8:42 pm

Although I doubt this thread will get much input from those with actual experience, the question has got to be a TLS first.

I'll be working in a biglaw shop in NYC. I'm not complaining about it. It was the best career move for me, given the offers I was considering last fall. I'm not turning myself off to NYC, without actually experiencing it for the summer, but I'm not sure how much I'm going to like it. Plus, COL is silly and I'd like to pay-down my loans before I get old.

So during OCI, I got dinged at my top choice (a DC firm...love DC). Most firms ding post-CB via form letter/email/whatever. This firm dinged me, but instead of a form letter, sent a letter telling me to reapply at the end of 2L summer. I followed up, and they confirmed, saying that it was a split vote/really tough decision/complicated hiring-year/numbers/etc... ITE, I'm going to work my face-off this summer, in best efforts to get a permanent offer.

Depending upon if/when my firm gives permanent offers, 3L OCI/contacting this firm directly may be in the cards. I'm not trying to sound like a douche, but I've been thinking about this for some time. I should probably be studying for finals. Whatever.

I haven't considered asking CDO, since we all know they know nothing. Anybody want to weigh-in? tyia

Sup Kid
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Re: Starting at a Firm after Not summering there

Postby Sup Kid » Sun Apr 17, 2011 9:15 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Although I doubt this thread will get much input from those with actual experience, the question has got to be a TLS first.

I'll be working in a biglaw shop in NYC. I'm not complaining about it. It was the best career move for me, given the offers I was considering last fall. I'm not turning myself off to NYC, without actually experiencing it for the summer, but I'm not sure how much I'm going to like it. Plus, COL is silly and I'd like to pay-down my loans before I get old.

So during OCI, I got dinged at my top choice (a DC firm...love DC). Most firms ding post-CB via form letter/email/whatever. This firm dinged me, but instead of a form letter, sent a letter telling me to reapply at the end of 2L summer. I followed up, and they confirmed, saying that it was a split vote/really tough decision/complicated hiring-year/numbers/etc... ITE, I'm going to work my face-off this summer, in best efforts to get a permanent offer.

Depending upon if/when my firm gives permanent offers, 3L OCI/contacting this firm directly may be in the cards. I'm not trying to sound like a douche, but I've been thinking about this for some time. I should probably be studying for finals. Whatever.

I haven't considered asking CDO, since we all know they know nothing. Anybody want to weigh-in? tyia

Can you clarify your question a little better? If you're wondering if you can apply, the answer is yes -- you'll have at least 28 days after receiving an offer from your summer firm before you have to accept or not. I would recommend sending in your stuff to the DC firm even before OCI, referencing what they told you. If you're wondering your chances of getting an offer, it all depends on the firm, their hiring needs, your desired practice area, your school/grades, etc, and TLS probably can't give you any reliable percentages (for my unreliable percentage, I guess you have less than a 33% chance, just based on the stats I provided earlier in this thread, and considering DC firms have much smaller classes than NYC). If you're wondering if you should do this at all, its a completely personal decision, based on how much you like your firm this summer, how much you really want to be in DC (the COL is not much lower than NYC though), and how you think your current firm will feel about you delaying your response to their offer. HTH.

Anonymous User
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Re: Starting at a Firm after Not summering there

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Apr 17, 2011 11:09 pm

Class of 2011 had more 3L OCI success than prior years, because a lot of firms underhired during our OCI. I can name 10 people off the top of my head that "upgraded" via 3L OCI - a few of us had clerkships, but several didn't. Several of the people "upgrading" actually did not have biglaw 2L gigs (prior to normal wisdom re: 3L OCI): and they all upgraded to ~V15 firms (mostly V10, including a few V5).

I sincerely doubt C/O 2012 and beyond will have the same 3L OCI opportunities that my class had - but trust me, having a better 2L OCI more than makes up for it.

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XxSpyKEx
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Re: Starting at a Firm after Not summering there

Postby XxSpyKEx » Mon Apr 18, 2011 2:13 am

Anonymous User wrote: I can name 10 people off the top of my head that "upgraded" via 3L OCI - a few of us had clerkships, but several didn't. Several of the people "upgrading" actually did not have biglaw 2L gigs (prior to normal wisdom re: 3L OCI): and they all upgraded to ~V15 firms (mostly V10, including a few V5).


What school is this at (you are posting anonymously anyways), and what type of grades did these people have?

Anonymous User
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Re: Starting at a Firm after Not summering there

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Apr 18, 2011 8:42 am

Sup Kid wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Although I doubt this thread will get much input from those with actual experience, the question has got to be a TLS first.

I'll be working in a biglaw shop in NYC. I'm not complaining about it. It was the best career move for me, given the offers I was considering last fall. I'm not turning myself off to NYC, without actually experiencing it for the summer, but I'm not sure how much I'm going to like it. Plus, COL is silly and I'd like to pay-down my loans before I get old.

So during OCI, I got dinged at my top choice (a DC firm...love DC). Most firms ding post-CB via form letter/email/whatever. This firm dinged me, but instead of a form letter, sent a letter telling me to reapply at the end of 2L summer. I followed up, and they confirmed, saying that it was a split vote/really tough decision/complicated hiring-year/numbers/etc... ITE, I'm going to work my face-off this summer, in best efforts to get a permanent offer.

Depending upon if/when my firm gives permanent offers, 3L OCI/contacting this firm directly may be in the cards. I'm not trying to sound like a douche, but I've been thinking about this for some time. I should probably be studying for finals. Whatever.

I haven't considered asking CDO, since we all know they know nothing. Anybody want to weigh-in? tyia

Can you clarify your question a little better? If you're wondering if you can apply, the answer is yes -- you'll have at least 28 days after receiving an offer from your summer firm before you have to accept or not. I would recommend sending in your stuff to the DC firm even before OCI, referencing what they told you. If you're wondering your chances of getting an offer, it all depends on the firm, their hiring needs, your desired practice area, your school/grades, etc, and TLS probably can't give you any reliable percentages (for my unreliable percentage, I guess you have less than a 33% chance, just based on the stats I provided earlier in this thread, and considering DC firms have much smaller classes than NYC). If you're wondering if you should do this at all, its a completely personal decision, based on how much you like your firm this summer, how much you really want to be in DC (the COL is not much lower than NYC though), and how you think your current firm will feel about you delaying your response to their offer. HTH.


I think it was more of an invitation for opinions. I'm a longtime TLSer, and notwithstanding some of the crap echoed around the site, the employment forums have helped me immensely along the way (I've also contributed a bunch too...karma, etc...).

I know that my chances will depend upon the firm (haven't talked to them since last fall) and whether they will have adjusted their hiring outlook for the upcoming year. In the end, I guess it's going to come down to timing. If the firm offers "out the door," then I'll be in a tough spot. It would surely be awkward to say, "um, yeah, gimme 28 days to think about that." OTOH, if the firm doesn't do offers until Aug/Sept, then I'll have some breathing room to roadshow elsewhere. Eh, we'll see. Here's to hoping NYC is spectacular. :?

Aqualibrium
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Re: Starting at a Firm after Not summering there

Postby Aqualibrium » Mon Apr 18, 2011 8:54 am

I don't know why this whole thing devolved into a discussion about whether or not op could get a job as a 3L when that had very little to do with what he was asking about.

He wants to know what the experience is like for those who do get a job as a 3L at a firm they didn't summer at. Imo, the obvious answer is, it is going to be different for you and someone that summered there. The summers will know people a little better, may be on their way to forming some relationships that will be useful in their time there, and they'll understand the quirks of the office and the people in it better than you. All that said, you're all still really starting off on the same foot; it'll be your first chance to do "real" work at the firm, billing correctly will be much more important, you won't be doing all sorts of events, and face time will be important.

As far as telling your other firm you won't be coming back, I really don't think they care that much about you for it to need to be awkward. You'll say you're taking another offer but you appreciate the opportunity. They'll say oh ok best of luck. Everyone will have a lot more important shit to do than stew over it.


Since you have a firm in mind, if you hit it off particularly well with one of your interviewers/have a similar interest (nba playoffs, nfl lockout, etc...), you should keep in touch now. Keep it casual, but make sure they don't forget about you, and they know you never stopped trying to form those relationships.




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