What to wear

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nosaj123
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What to wear

Postby nosaj123 » Sat Apr 16, 2011 5:43 pm

I'm an 0L, and I was just asked to meet an alumnus of a school I will likely be attending. The meeting was set up by a mutual acquaintance who was excited to hear that I may be attending the same school as the person I will be meeting. We are meeting at Starbucks next Thursday for an hour.

When this meeting was initially suggested, I just thought it was a good opportunity to learn about law school from someone who went to the same school. However, I searched this person on the internet and saw that they are a partner at an NLJ250 firm, and I immediately decided to take the meeting more seriously. Then this person asked for my resume and a writing sample...

My questions:
1. What should I expect from this meeting?
2. How should I prepare? (what questions should I ask and what questions should I be expected to answer)
3. What should I wear? A meeting over coffee set up by an acquaintance would normally be khakis and a polo. A meeting with a partner who has seen my resume would be my nicest suit. This situation...I have no idea!

FiveSermon
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Re: What to wear

Postby FiveSermon » Sat Apr 16, 2011 5:56 pm

Khakis and a polo. Showing up in a suit sounds overly formal.

nosaj123
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Re: What to wear

Postby nosaj123 » Sat Apr 16, 2011 6:02 pm

FiveSermon wrote:Khakis and a polo. Showing up in a suit sounds overly formal.

What about something in between? Slacks and a dress shirt? Maybe a jacket? Maybe not?

FiveSermon
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Re: What to wear

Postby FiveSermon » Sat Apr 16, 2011 6:03 pm

nosaj123 wrote:
FiveSermon wrote:Khakis and a polo. Showing up in a suit sounds overly formal.

What about something in between? Slacks and a dress shirt? Maybe a jacket? Maybe not?


That could work. Just don't show up in a tie and a suit to a Starbucks for what was supposed to be a casual meeting.

zomginternets
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Re: What to wear

Postby zomginternets » Mon Apr 18, 2011 2:33 am

The resume/writing sample thing is very weird. Makes me think that he sees this as more than just a casual chat about law school. I think you should first ask the mutual acquaintance what the partner thinks this meeting is going to be about. I mean, if the partner of an NLJ250 firm is going to read your resume and writing sample and sit down for coffee with you, it might seem like you're snubbing him if you don't look like you're taking your meeting seriously.

If there's no time to ask the acquaintance, I would go in a suit sans the tie. You could always just try to play it off like you just like dressing smart most of the time, or you have some important meeting afterwards that you need to be suited up for. The partner might chuckle if you are too dressed up, but it's infinitely better than offending him by dressing down too much.

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MrKappus
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Re: What to wear

Postby MrKappus » Mon Apr 18, 2011 2:46 am

zomginternets wrote:I think you should first ask the mutual acquaintance what the partner thinks this meeting is going to be about.


+1. If you have time, you should 2x-check with your mutual acquaintance that the partner knows you're a 0L. Sounds like a signal got crossed and he thinks you're a law student.

pkt63
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Re: What to wear

Postby pkt63 » Mon Apr 18, 2011 1:17 pm

Some of the best advice I ever got about clothes is 1. Dress like the highest person in your organization, or (if you don't want to be the highest) dress like the person in the position you want to eventually be in and 2. You make people more comfortable when you are "like" them. If he's going to be in a suit (which on a Thursday morning, would be my guess) you should wear a suit. This goes further to, for instance, if he sits with arms crossed, you should cross your arms. If he is uses his hands a lot when talking, you should too. It sounds kind of silly, but lots of research shows these little things make an impact on people's perceptions of you.

This advice could be helpful at any time. For this meeting specifically, unless you have reason to believe that he will not be wearing a suit, you should wear one. I mean, at the worst, he would just think you are taking a coffee break from your current job where you wear a suit, no? At the best, he will think better of you. I see people all the time wearing suits at Starbucks. It is an equal clothing opportunity place.

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vamedic03
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Re: What to wear

Postby vamedic03 » Mon Apr 18, 2011 3:09 pm

pkt63 wrote:Some of the best advice I ever got about clothes is 1. Dress like the highest person in your organization, or (if you don't want to be the highest) dress like the person in the position you want to eventually be in and 2. You make people more comfortable when you are "like" them. If he's going to be in a suit (which on a Thursday morning, would be my guess) you should wear a suit. This goes further to, for instance, if he sits with arms crossed, you should cross your arms. If he is uses his hands a lot when talking, you should too. It sounds kind of silly, but lots of research shows these little things make an impact on people's perceptions of you.

This advice could be helpful at any time. For this meeting specifically, unless you have reason to believe that he will not be wearing a suit, you should wear one. I mean, at the worst, he would just think you are taking a coffee break from your current job where you wear a suit, no? At the best, he will think better of you. I see people all the time wearing suits at Starbucks. It is an equal clothing opportunity place.


No. A 0L meeting someone for coffee at Starbucks should not wear a suit. All this talk about wearing suits to coffee is just silly.

Also, OP, it really sounds like some signals got crossed because there is no reason that anyone would want to see a 0L's writing sample. It's hard to have a legal writing sample when you don't do legal writing.

dakatz
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Re: What to wear

Postby dakatz » Mon Apr 18, 2011 3:13 pm

You obviously had a serious miscommunication here OP. He wouldn't have asked for a writing sample and resume if he realized you hadn't even begun law school yet. That is a bit more pressing than worrying about what to wear. And btw, if it is coffee, just wear khakis and a polo.

pkt63
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Re: What to wear

Postby pkt63 » Mon Apr 18, 2011 5:07 pm

vamedic03 wrote:
pkt63 wrote:Some of the best advice I ever got about clothes is 1. Dress like the highest person in your organization, or (if you don't want to be the highest) dress like the person in the position you want to eventually be in and 2. You make people more comfortable when you are "like" them. If he's going to be in a suit (which on a Thursday morning, would be my guess) you should wear a suit. This goes further to, for instance, if he sits with arms crossed, you should cross your arms. If he is uses his hands a lot when talking, you should too. It sounds kind of silly, but lots of research shows these little things make an impact on people's perceptions of you.

This advice could be helpful at any time. For this meeting specifically, unless you have reason to believe that he will not be wearing a suit, you should wear one. I mean, at the worst, he would just think you are taking a coffee break from your current job where you wear a suit, no? At the best, he will think better of you. I see people all the time wearing suits at Starbucks. It is an equal clothing opportunity place.


No. A 0L meeting someone for coffee at Starbucks should not wear a suit. All this talk about wearing suits to coffee is just silly.

Also, OP, it really sounds like some signals got crossed because there is no reason that anyone would want to see a 0L's writing sample. It's hard to have a legal writing sample when you don't do legal writing.


As very commanding and authoritative your No sounds, yougive no valid reason for it.

OP, you may be overdressed in a suit, but trust me it is better than being underdressed. You could be making a contact that will be valuable to you for years (or not, who knows) and first impressions matter. And you could have a very good reason for appearing to be overdressed, whereas there is never an excuse for being underdressed. If I was a bystander at the starbucks, and I saw a young guy in a polo and khakis and a middle aged person in a suit, I would either assume the young guy was the son, or that it was a business situation and I would feel bad for the young guy for making a bad choice. Hopefully you can find out more about the guy and the meeting, and if there's reason to think he won't be wearing a suit, good news. But which side would you rather err on if you are uncertain?

To illustrate my point, between the time I posted my first and this post, I was meeting a friend for lunch and ran into a state senator I tangentially know and a local city councilmember I used to work on some issues with. I was not wearing a suit, and I felt sort of uncomfortable talking shop with them when I was in a more casual framw of mind (reflected in my clothing).

Either way I hope you learn more and get it straightened out. While I agree that is the more important step right now, I think you are absolutely right to also plan your attire carefully. Hope it's productive!

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vamedic03
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Re: What to wear

Postby vamedic03 » Mon Apr 18, 2011 5:36 pm

pkt63 wrote:
vamedic03 wrote:
pkt63 wrote:Some of the best advice I ever got about clothes is 1. Dress like the highest person in your organization, or (if you don't want to be the highest) dress like the person in the position you want to eventually be in and 2. You make people more comfortable when you are "like" them. If he's going to be in a suit (which on a Thursday morning, would be my guess) you should wear a suit. This goes further to, for instance, if he sits with arms crossed, you should cross your arms. If he is uses his hands a lot when talking, you should too. It sounds kind of silly, but lots of research shows these little things make an impact on people's perceptions of you.

This advice could be helpful at any time. For this meeting specifically, unless you have reason to believe that he will not be wearing a suit, you should wear one. I mean, at the worst, he would just think you are taking a coffee break from your current job where you wear a suit, no? At the best, he will think better of you. I see people all the time wearing suits at Starbucks. It is an equal clothing opportunity place.


No. A 0L meeting someone for coffee at Starbucks should not wear a suit. All this talk about wearing suits to coffee is just silly.

Also, OP, it really sounds like some signals got crossed because there is no reason that anyone would want to see a 0L's writing sample. It's hard to have a legal writing sample when you don't do legal writing.


As very commanding and authoritative your No sounds, yougive no valid reason for it.

OP, you may be overdressed in a suit, but trust me it is better than being underdressed. You could be making a contact that will be valuable to you for years (or not, who knows) and first impressions matter. And you could have a very good reason for appearing to be overdressed, whereas there is never an excuse for being underdressed. If I was a bystander at the starbucks, and I saw a young guy in a polo and khakis and a middle aged person in a suit, I would either assume the young guy was the son, or that it was a business situation and I would feel bad for the young guy for making a bad choice. Hopefully you can find out more about the guy and the meeting, and if there's reason to think he won't be wearing a suit, good news. But which side would you rather err on if you are uncertain?

To illustrate my point, between the time I posted my first and this post, I was meeting a friend for lunch and ran into a state senator I tangentially know and a local city councilmember I used to work on some issues with. I was not wearing a suit, and I felt sort of uncomfortable talking shop with them when I was in a more casual framw of mind (reflected in my clothing).

Either way I hope you learn more and get it straightened out. While I agree that is the more important step right now, I think you are absolutely right to also plan your attire carefully. Hope it's productive!


Part of choosing dress is choosing the appropriate dress for the situation. The OP is a 0L meeting to get information. This isn't an interview nor is this a business meeting. It is expected that the OP will be in some form of casual clothes.

Also, you make the assumption that the Partner's firm even follows a business formal dress code. Many firms do not.

Anyways, there is absolutely no reason to wear a suit - it's not appropriate for the social situation.

Finally, your 'situation' at the end of your post reflects your own personal discomfort with a situation. Are you arguing that people should always wear suits, just in case you run into someone?

Dress for the occasion - an informal chat at a coffee shop calls for business casual, at most. If I was meeting the OP and he showed up in a suit, I would find it very off-putting.

pkt63
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Re: What to wear

Postby pkt63 » Mon Apr 18, 2011 5:55 pm

vamedic03 wrote:
pkt63 wrote:
vamedic03 wrote:
pkt63 wrote:Some of the best advice I ever got about clothes is 1. Dress like the highest person in your organization, or (if you don't want to be the highest) dress like the person in the position you want to eventually be in and 2. You make people more comfortable when you are "like" them. If he's going to be in a suit (which on a Thursday morning, would be my guess) you should wear a suit. This goes further to, for instance, if he sits with arms crossed, you should cross your arms. If he is uses his hands a lot when talking, you should too. It sounds kind of silly, but lots of research shows these little things make an impact on people's perceptions of you.

This advice could be helpful at any time. For this meeting specifically, unless you have reason to believe that he will not be wearing a suit, you should wear one. I mean, at the worst, he would just think you are taking a coffee break from your current job where you wear a suit, no? At the best, he will think better of you. I see people all the time wearing suits at Starbucks. It is an equal clothing opportunity place.


No. A 0L meeting someone for coffee at Starbucks should not wear a suit. All this talk about wearing suits to coffee is just silly.

Also, OP, it really sounds like some signals got crossed because there is no reason that anyone would want to see a 0L's writing sample. It's hard to have a legal writing sample when you don't do legal writing.


As very commanding and authoritative your No sounds, yougive no valid reason for it.

OP, you may be overdressed in a suit, but trust me it is better than being underdressed. You could be making a contact that will be valuable to you for years (or not, who knows) and first impressions matter. And you could have a very good reason for appearing to be overdressed, whereas there is never an excuse for being underdressed. If I was a bystander at the starbucks, and I saw a young guy in a polo and khakis and a middle aged person in a suit, I would either assume the young guy was the son, or that it was a business situation and I would feel bad for the young guy for making a bad choice. Hopefully you can find out more about the guy and the meeting, and if there's reason to think he won't be wearing a suit, good news. But which side would you rather err on if you are uncertain?

To illustrate my point, between the time I posted my first and this post, I was meeting a friend for lunch and ran into a state senator I tangentially know and a local city councilmember I used to work on some issues with. I was not wearing a suit, and I felt sort of uncomfortable talking shop with them when I was in a more casual framw of mind (reflected in my clothing).

Either way I hope you learn more and get it straightened out. While I agree that is the more important step right now, I think you are absolutely right to also plan your attire carefully. Hope it's productive!


Part of choosing dress is choosing the appropriate dress for the situation. The OP is a 0L meeting to get information. This isn't an interview nor is this a business meeting. It is expected that the OP will be in some form of casual clothes.

Also, you make the assumption that the Partner's firm even follows a business formal dress code. Many firms do not.

Anyways, there is absolutely no reason to wear a suit - it's not appropriate for the social situation.

Finally, your 'situation' at the end of your post reflects your own personal discomfort with a situation. Are you arguing that people should always wear suits, just in case you run into someone?

Dress for the occasion - an informal chat at a coffee shop calls for business casual, at most. If I was meeting the OP and he showed up in a suit, I would find it very off-putting.

Even at firms that don't follow a formal business code, many people still wear suits every day.

A social situation absolutely dictates what you should wear. And part of the context of that social situation is what the other person will be wearing.

You say the OP is "an 0L" and this is what 0Ls should do. This person is a lot more than just an 0L, including to the person he will be meeting with. If he fits the average demographic, OP is a professional, and has some sort of career. He may have an advanced degree or have some other interesting connections with the partner (not for nothing, his bis impression - including dress - will also reflect on his connection(s) to the partner). In any case, he shouldn't just do what an 0L should do, he should do what a professional should do, because he is meeting with a professional. I'm surprised you would say it is not a business meeting. It most certainly is. It is about the partner's field of business and the OP's intended field of business. It certainly isn't about a hobby, family, or some other personal interest. What else would it be *but* business?

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Stringer Bell
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Re: What to wear

Postby Stringer Bell » Mon Apr 18, 2011 6:04 pm

pkt63 wrote:Even at firms that don't follow a formal business code, many people still wear suits every day.

A social situation absolutely dictates what you should wear. And part of the context of that social situation is what the other person will be wearing.

You say the OP is "an 0L" and this is what 0Ls should do. This person is a lot more than just an 0L, including to the person he will be meeting with. If he fits the average demographic, OP is a professional, and has some sort of career. He may have an advanced degree or have some other interesting connections with the partner (not for nothing, his bis impression - including dress - will also reflect on his connection(s) to the partner). In any case, he shouldn't just do what an 0L should do, he should do what a professional should do, because he is meeting with a professional. I'm surprised you would say it is not a business meeting. It most certainly is. It is about the partner's field of business and the OP's intended field of business. It certainly isn't about a hobby, family, or some other personal interest. What else would it be *but* business?


Maybe the legal world is different, but most "professionals" would not specifically wear a suit for an informal short meeting at Starbucks.

pkt63
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Re: What to wear

Postby pkt63 » Mon Apr 18, 2011 6:12 pm

I never proposed that professional = suit.

But if most professionals wouldn't wear a suit to an informal meeting at Starbucks (let's say that is given), then you are saying that if the partner happened to be wearing a suit that day (for any number of reasons) he should feel compelled to change out of it from 10am-11am (or whatever) because it would be silly of him to go to starbucks to meet someone in his suit? I really think the partner wouldn't give it a second thought, he'd just show up in his suit and not feel an ounce of self-consciousness.

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holdencaulfield
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Re: What to wear

Postby holdencaulfield » Tue Apr 19, 2011 2:52 am

Do not wear a suit to this. Seriously. I would also find it off-putting.

This is not an interview, it's coffee. It's important you make a good impression and "click" with this guy; don't go to this meeting expecting to get something out of it. You need to cultivate a relationship with this guy so he can help you later on. As far as preparation, try and focus on topics that interest him just as much as lawschool/legal topics. If he went to UT, brush up on its football program and ask him how the longhorns will do next season.

071816
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Re: What to wear

Postby 071816 » Tue Apr 19, 2011 2:55 am

If you wear a suit you'll look like a jackass.

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Cupidity
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Re: What to wear

Postby Cupidity » Tue Apr 19, 2011 3:01 am

Be casual. Be cool. Lawyers are people. Even Partners. Unless we are talking Skadden, where they are actually cyborgs robots.

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Cupidity
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Re: What to wear

Postby Cupidity » Tue Apr 19, 2011 3:08 am

pkt63 wrote:Some of the best advice I ever got about clothes is 1. Dress like the highest person in your organization, or (if you don't want to be the highest) dress like the person in the position you want to eventually be in.


Seriously, I read through the above posts and consensus on here is leaning frighteningly towards over-dressing. This sounds like a personal connection not a business connection. If you act too much like this is a job interview, there is going to be a serious disconnect. Don't read too much into the "resume, writing sample thing," it is pretty standard with this friend of a friend who is a lawyer coffee sessions. If it turns out to be something more, awesome for you, but again, nothing more than a polo and khakis, or perhaps a dress shirt with jeans.

Lucidity
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Re: What to wear

Postby Lucidity » Tue Apr 19, 2011 9:22 am

Are you sure this person knows you're a 0L? Why the hell do they want to see a writing sample? A writing sample from undergrad is worthless. Nothing you've done in undergrad is anything close to a legal memo or brief.

As to what to wear, i would draw the line at anything requiring a tie. Slacks and tucked in button up shirt is fine. No jacket, no tie.

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drylo
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Re: What to wear

Postby drylo » Tue Apr 19, 2011 6:26 pm

Slacks and button-down shirt. Jacket could be appropriate, depending on the situation. No tie. No suit.

nosaj123
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Re: What to wear

Postby nosaj123 » Sun Apr 24, 2011 8:59 pm

Thanks for the comments. In case anyone is interested here is a recap of how things went at the meeting:

Most importantly, I wore a blue button-up shirt with black slacks. Given the uncertainty of the situation, I went with something that is versatile. It ended up being a good call, as I was dressed similarly to, but slightly more formal than Partner.

Partner new that I was an 0L going into this meeting. He wanted a writing sample because his experience has shown that people with good creative writing skills are better legal writers after law school. I wish I had known that was what he was looking for prior to our meeting, as I would have likely sent him a different writing sample. (Although I have a very limited number of recent writing samples since I graduated college a few year ago)

We ended up chatting for a few hours, and spent more than an hour on my resume. This was a resume I had written almost 6 months ago, and, though I knew it well, I wasn't prepared for such an in-depth review of it. That was definitely my bad, and something that I will never let happen again.

Overall, the conversation was extremely useful to me. I learned a lot about hiring from the perspective of a partner, and he gave me a number of tips on what skills I should develop to make me a better lawyer and how I could display them to be a more desirable candidate in the future. When we parted ways, Partner let me know that he would be available to offer me advice as I moved through law school and into my career, and I let him know that I would take him up on that offer.

Renzo
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Re: What to wear

Postby Renzo » Sun Apr 24, 2011 9:24 pm

nosaj123 wrote:Thanks for the comments. In case anyone is interested here is a recap of how things went at the meeting:

Most importantly, I wore a blue button-up shirt with black slacks. Given the uncertainty of the situation, I went with something that is versatile. It ended up being a good call, as I was dressed similarly to, but slightly more formal than Partner.

Partner new that I was an 0L going into this meeting. He wanted a writing sample because his experience has shown that people with good creative writing skills are better legal writers after law school. I wish I had known that was what he was looking for prior to our meeting, as I would have likely sent him a different writing sample. (Although I have a very limited number of recent writing samples since I graduated college a few year ago)

We ended up chatting for a few hours, and spent more than an hour on my resume. This was a resume I had written almost 6 months ago, and, though I knew it well, I wasn't prepared for such an in-depth review of it. That was definitely my bad, and something that I will never let happen again.

Overall, the conversation was extremely useful to me. I learned a lot about hiring from the perspective of a partner, and he gave me a number of tips on what skills I should develop to make me a better lawyer and how I could display them to be a more desirable candidate in the future. When we parted ways, Partner let me know that he would be available to offer me advice as I moved through law school and into my career, and I let him know that I would take him up on that offer.


FYI, this is the wildest dream, best-case-scenario for an informational interview. You are really fortunate to have had someone take this kind of time to talk with you. I would follow up to make sure he knows how much you appreciate his time, and I would definitely take him up on his offer for continuing advice at all your big milestones.

313D313
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Re: What to wear

Postby 313D313 » Sun Apr 24, 2011 9:30 pm

drylo wrote:Overall, the conversation was extremely useful to me. I learned a lot about hiring from the perspective of a partner, and he gave me a number of tips on what skills I should develop to make me a better lawyer and how I could display them to be a more desirable candidate in the future.



Mind sharing some of that wisdom?

nosaj123
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Re: What to wear

Postby nosaj123 » Sun Apr 24, 2011 9:46 pm

Renzo wrote:FYI, this is the wildest dream, best-case-scenario for an informational interview. You are really fortunate to have had someone take this kind of time to talk with you. I would follow up to make sure he knows how much you appreciate his time, and I would definitely take him up on his offer for continuing advice at all your big milestones.


I realize how lucky I have been, and definitely plan on taking advantage of it...

nosaj123
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Re: What to wear

Postby nosaj123 » Sun Apr 24, 2011 9:57 pm

313D313 wrote:
drylo wrote:Overall, the conversation was extremely useful to me. I learned a lot about hiring from the perspective of a partner, and he gave me a number of tips on what skills I should develop to make me a better lawyer and how I could display them to be a more desirable candidate in the future.



Mind sharing some of that wisdom?


A lot of what he said was very specific to me and my background. For example, my resume was very business oriented, listing off my accomplishments (I have a few years of corporate experience). Instead, he said I should focus on skills I've gained that would benefit me in a legal experience...

Some of the things that he said he looked for in a candidate were:
-good writing, including non-legal writing experience
-selling experience (the higher up the food-chain you move in a firm, the more it becomes a sales job)
-communication skills, including speaking/presenting to a variety of audiences, and just interacting with a variety of people in general
-keeping busy. For example, on my resume I listed the three jobs I have had since college. He was also interested in the jobs I have had since high school and wanted to see that I did something with my summers in college (and was happy I worked a bit in high school too).
-diverse interests. He said I should put a variety of things on my resume because I never know what is going to click with the person reading it




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