Ah, I am a bit confused. Should I even go?

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Northeast
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Ah, I am a bit confused. Should I even go?

Postby Northeast » Thu Apr 14, 2011 2:05 pm

I am going to be attending a T30 law school on a near ride. I am pretty positive that I do not want to practice law with my degree but to go into commercial real estate/management. My goal would be to join a firm/group in a place like DC and then try to branch off and do my own thing.

Would I have trouble finding an internship with a group such as this during my 1L summer? Would they look at a law degree as a positive?

I know some will say that I should forgo LS, however, I want a graduate degree and since my UG majors are both in business I figured that a law degree would be the smarter way to go, plus its pretty much free - the opportunity cost.

Looking for any thoughts.

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buckilaw
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Re: Ah, I am a bit confused. Should I even go?

Postby buckilaw » Thu Apr 14, 2011 2:10 pm

It sounds like you should go to business school if you pursue a graduate degree. Ask yourself if a new degree is necessary to do the work you want to do. Granted you have a "near ride" but you are giving up three years of income, tuition can and will increase, and you will still need to take out loans or dip into savings for COL expenses.

IMO don't go to law school.

Northeast
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Re: Ah, I am a bit confused. Should I even go?

Postby Northeast » Thu Apr 14, 2011 2:11 pm

Parents are paying for CoL etc.

For real estate I thought a law degree would be quite useful? no?

Would it be hard for me to get summer work at a real estate firm/business?

WhirledWorld
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Re: Ah, I am a bit confused. Should I even go?

Postby WhirledWorld » Thu Apr 14, 2011 2:11 pm

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Last edited by WhirledWorld on Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

rose711
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Re: Ah, I am a bit confused. Should I even go?

Postby rose711 » Thu Apr 14, 2011 2:16 pm

Don't go to law school. You can learn the real estate law you will need in other ways. It is more than the money here - you are talking about three years of intense effort, even if you don't want to practice you need to do well, plus a bar exam. Don't go.

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buckilaw
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Re: Ah, I am a bit confused. Should I even go?

Postby buckilaw » Thu Apr 14, 2011 2:16 pm

Northeast wrote:Parents are paying for CoL etc.

For real estate I thought a law degree would be quite useful? no?

Would it be hard for me to get summer work at a real estate firm/business?


It might be useful. Kind of like earning a doctorate degree in geometry to play pool better is "useful".
Even if your school is free you give up three years of your life. A law degree would not help you find summer work at a real estate firm, you would have to network. You can network now spending less time and money. Don't go to law school.

kopper
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Re: Ah, I am a bit confused. Should I even go?

Postby kopper » Thu Apr 14, 2011 2:17 pm

I went for an MBA after undergrad at a well respected school but not top program. I am now back in law school. I also have been involved in hiring the past 10+ years for people responsible for generating millions of dollars in income. In general I think a law degree is much more valuable than an advanced business degree. The effort required for law school is much greater and I believe the value of the education is much greater. you can go out and practice law w/out having a law degree however you can earn a better education in some respects working in the business world than getting an advanced business degree. For you the cost is not a concern. If I were you I would go to law school. I think it can be very useful in the area you are targeting even more so than a business degree. I doubt you will find a need to get an advanced business degree in the future if you follow this path.

I don't find an MBA, outside of one from maybe a top 10 school, that valuable and would argue a law degree outside of a T14 will open more doors than a non-Top 10 advanced business degree. Good luck!

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buckilaw
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Re: Ah, I am a bit confused. Should I even go?

Postby buckilaw » Thu Apr 14, 2011 2:22 pm

kopper wrote:I went for an MBA after undergrad at a well respected school but not top program. I am now back in law school. I also have been involved in hiring the past 10+ years for people responsible for generating millions of dollars in income. In general I think a law degree is much more valuable than an advanced business degree. The effort required for law school is much greater and I believe the value of the education is much greater. you can go out and practice law w/out having a law degree however you can earn a better education in some respects working in the business world than getting an advanced business degree. For you the cost is not a concern. If I were you I would go to law school. I think it can be very useful in the area you are targeting even more so than a business degree. I doubt you will find a need to get an advanced business degree in the future if you follow this path.

I don't find an MBA, outside of one from maybe a top 10 school, that valuable and would argue a law degree outside of a T14 will open more doors than a non-Top 10 advanced business degree. Good luck!


How do Top 30 law schools typically place into Big Real Estate? Does Big Real Estate Exist? A medical degree arguably requires more effort and has greater value than a law degree. If OP should pursue a law degree because a law degree is more academically rigorous/more valuable than a business degree, wouldn't a med degree be even better? OP go to med school, apply to real estate firms, profit.

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fathergoose
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Re: Ah, I am a bit confused. Should I even go?

Postby fathergoose » Thu Apr 14, 2011 2:29 pm

If your debt is going to be minimal and parents are covering COL by all means go. Law school is interesting and if you've got nothing better to do it certainly can't hurt. Beats the hell out of cold calling 8 hours a day at a real estate brokerage which is what you'd be doing entry level there.

Northeast
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Re: Ah, I am a bit confused. Should I even go?

Postby Northeast » Thu Apr 14, 2011 2:31 pm

I want to apply to a management firm. Get some field experience, learn the business and then try to branch off and do my own thing.

kopper
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Re: Ah, I am a bit confused. Should I even go?

Postby kopper » Thu Apr 14, 2011 2:37 pm

buckilaw wrote:
kopper wrote:I went for an MBA after undergrad at a well respected school but not top program. I am now back in law school. I also have been involved in hiring the past 10+ years for people responsible for generating millions of dollars in income. In general I think a law degree is much more valuable than an advanced business degree. The effort required for law school is much greater and I believe the value of the education is much greater. you can go out and practice law w/out having a law degree however you can earn a better education in some respects working in the business world than getting an advanced business degree. For you the cost is not a concern. If I were you I would go to law school. I think it can be very useful in the area you are targeting even more so than a business degree. I doubt you will find a need to get an advanced business degree in the future if you follow this path.

I don't find an MBA, outside of one from maybe a top 10 school, that valuable and would argue a law degree outside of a T14 will open more doors than a non-Top 10 advanced business degree. Good luck!


How do Top 30 law schools typically place into Big Real Estate? Does Big Real Estate Exist? A medical degree arguably requires more effort and has greater value than a law degree. If OP should pursue a law degree because a law degree is more academically rigorous/more valuable than a business degree, wouldn't a med degree be even better? OP go to med school, apply to real estate firms, profit.


Good point but med school does not apply to business, law is very much a part of business. Other than personal development from attaining an MBA I didn't find the information I learned to be that helpful. There are benefits to law school in the knowledge you learn about the law and how it works as well as the learning process itself and the thought process of a lawyer. There is nothing ecquivalent in business school that that learning and is very much applicable in business.

A law degree is not necessary to success in real estate but it does provide a valuable and advantage to the person with that background and training in a way that business school will not provide and certainly not med school. I think law school is a good idea although certainly not necessary.

jarofsoup
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Re: Ah, I am a bit confused. Should I even go?

Postby jarofsoup » Thu Apr 14, 2011 2:39 pm

Ken the creator of this blog now works in real estate. It would not hurt since real estate is all contracts.

If u want to go to law school and it won't cost much why not.

gabbagabba
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Re: Ah, I am a bit confused. Should I even go?

Postby gabbagabba » Thu Apr 14, 2011 2:43 pm

Northeast wrote:I want to apply to a management firm. Get some field experience, learn the business and then try to branch off and do my own thing.


Don't go to law school.

3 years of your life is better spent getting into the business, getting experience, and getting jobs/positions that make your resume look better. Law school doesn't teach you the law anyway, it teaches you how to "think like a lawyer", which is to say, to be bitterly paranoid and able to spot potential legal issues - both of which you can learn in the business world without wasting 3 yrs of your life

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buckilaw
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Re: Ah, I am a bit confused. Should I even go?

Postby buckilaw » Thu Apr 14, 2011 2:48 pm

jarofsoup wrote:Ken the creator of this blog now works in real estate. It would not hurt since real estate is all contracts.

If u want to go to law school and it won't cost much why not.


Law is involved in real estate. Law School is completely unrelated to real estate hiring. How many real estate firms come to OCI?
If the benefits of having a J.D for real estate are so great that it warrants spending three years to earn the JD instead of just hiring a lawyer, then law school may be viable. But, I'm willing to bet most JD's who move to real estate practiced a few years. Law school, without actually practicing law for a few years, is very unlikely to provide a substantial benefit for someone working in a tangentially related field.

jarofsoup
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Re: Ah, I am a bit confused. Should I even go?

Postby jarofsoup » Thu Apr 14, 2011 2:57 pm

buckilaw wrote:
jarofsoup wrote:Ken the creator of this blog now works in real estate. It would not hurt since real estate is all contracts.

If u want to go to law school and it won't cost much why not.


Law is involved in real estate. Law School is completely unrelated to real estate hiring. How many real estate firms come to OCI?
If the benefits of having a J.D for real estate are so great that it warrants spending three years to earn the JD instead of just hiring a lawyer, then law school may be viable. But, I'm willing to bet most JD's who move to real estate practiced a few years. Law school, without actually practicing law for a few years, is very unlikely to provide a substantial benefit for someone working in a tangentially related field.


My mom is a agent the owner of the company she works at went straight into real estate from law school.

I am just saying that it is a possibility and it happens, but OP should be wary the real estate market sucks probably as much as the legal market.

I do not believe that you need much in the way of education to be a agent.

bigben
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Re: Ah, I am a bit confused. Should I even go?

Postby bigben » Thu Apr 14, 2011 3:06 pm

kopper wrote:
buckilaw wrote:
kopper wrote:I went for an MBA after undergrad at a well respected school but not top program. I am now back in law school. I also have been involved in hiring the past 10+ years for people responsible for generating millions of dollars in income. In general I think a law degree is much more valuable than an advanced business degree. The effort required for law school is much greater and I believe the value of the education is much greater. you can go out and practice law w/out having a law degree however you can earn a better education in some respects working in the business world than getting an advanced business degree. For you the cost is not a concern. If I were you I would go to law school. I think it can be very useful in the area you are targeting even more so than a business degree. I doubt you will find a need to get an advanced business degree in the future if you follow this path.

I don't find an MBA, outside of one from maybe a top 10 school, that valuable and would argue a law degree outside of a T14 will open more doors than a non-Top 10 advanced business degree. Good luck!


How do Top 30 law schools typically place into Big Real Estate? Does Big Real Estate Exist? A medical degree arguably requires more effort and has greater value than a law degree. If OP should pursue a law degree because a law degree is more academically rigorous/more valuable than a business degree, wouldn't a med degree be even better? OP go to med school, apply to real estate firms, profit.


Good point but med school does not apply to business, law is very much a part of business. Other than personal development from attaining an MBA I didn't find the information I learned to be that helpful. There are benefits to law school in the knowledge you learn about the law and how it works as well as the learning process itself and the thought process of a lawyer. There is nothing ecquivalent in business school that that learning and is very much applicable in business.

A law degree is not necessary to success in real estate but it does provide a valuable and advantage to the person with that background and training in a way that business school will not provide and certainly not med school. I think law school is a good idea although certainly not necessary.

This is terribly, awfully wrong. Law school does not give you any more knowledge useful for going into real estate than you could learn in 3 or 4 days of reading a book or two. "Thought process of a lawyer" has to be a joke. This is the stupidest thing I've ever read.

The only imaginable reason to go to law school before going into real estate is if you think that it will somehow get you in the door with your desired employer. Perhaps law school would offer networking opportunities or perhaps being in law school would make some dunce employer think you are bright and motivated. This seems like a really long shot.

Everyone gets this idea about law school because you see many successful people in a wide variety of industries who went to law school or used to be lawyers. The only reason for this phenomenon is that a lot of smart driven people go to law school. Many of these decide that they hate or would hate practicing law so they go do something else. Law school did not help them on this path, it was more like a detour. Some of these people will tell you about how their legal experience was compatible or supplements what they do now but that is mostly very vague bull shit and in any case it doesn't mean that law school actually helped them get to where they are now. A more realistic picture is that some people go to law school thinking that they want to be a lawyer and then decide to do something else. Frankly it is hard for anyone to know until they try it. Most 0Ls claiming they really want to be a lawyer are clueless. So I say go to law school if you think you might want to be a lawyer but you're not sure. Almost nobody is really sure because almost nobody really knows what they are talking about. But in your case you don't even have any inclination that you might want to be a lawyer, so I'd say don't go.
Last edited by bigben on Thu Apr 14, 2011 3:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Anonymous User
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Re: Ah, I am a bit confused. Should I even go?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Apr 14, 2011 3:06 pm

My dad is a real estate developer and I am curently in Law school. I majored in business as an undergrad but realized that a good law school would help a lot in the long run. My dad is a very successful developer and thinks going to law school is the best decision I ever made. If you can get an MBA right now at a school like Harvard or Wharton then you should do that. If you are straight out of undergrad, though, I think law school is the better bet and since it is not costing you anything is a win win situation. Personally I plan to work in big law in the beginning but will most likely get into real estate in a few years. Lots of real estate developers went to law school. Look up Sam Zell, Stephen Ross and Stuart Miller

bigben
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Re: Ah, I am a bit confused. Should I even go?

Postby bigben » Thu Apr 14, 2011 3:14 pm

Anonymous User wrote:My dad is a real estate developer and I am curently in Law school. I majored in business as an undergrad but realized that a good law school would help a lot in the long run. My dad is a very successful developer and thinks going to law school is the best decision I ever made. If you can get an MBA right now at a school like Harvard or Wharton then you should do that. If you are straight out of undergrad, though, I think law school is the better bet and since it is not costing you anything is a win win situation. Personally I plan to work in big law in the beginning but will most likely get into real estate in a few years. Lots of real estate developers went to law school. Look up Sam Zell, Stephen Ross and Stuart Miller

Your dad is probably one of those people who think that everyone who goes to law school makes bank and runs shit, and upon enrollment automatically enters an exclusive society of elites that help each other make bank and run shit.

kopper
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Re: Ah, I am a bit confused. Should I even go?

Postby kopper » Thu Apr 14, 2011 3:23 pm

buckilaw wrote:
jarofsoup wrote:Ken the creator of this blog now works in real estate. It would not hurt since real estate is all contracts.

If u want to go to law school and it won't cost much why not.


Law is involved in real estate. Law School is completely unrelated to real estate hiring. How many real estate firms come to OCI?
If the benefits of having a J.D for real estate are so great that it warrants spending three years to earn the JD instead of just hiring a lawyer, then law school may be viable. But, I'm willing to bet most JD's who move to real estate practiced a few years. Law school, without actually practicing law for a few years, is very unlikely to provide a substantial benefit for someone working in a tangentially related field.


to use your analogy law school is NOT med school. there are other benefits to law school than practicing law. I agree that the strongest argument for going to law school is to practice law however there is an argument to be made that at a low cost three years of law school will serve better than 3 years of shit work in progressing a non-legal career. Certainly in the business world and especially in real estate. Just b/c those firms don't come to OCI (god-forbid you have to find a job on your own) doesn't mean it is not a good decision to go to law school. non-traditional or outside of the box thinking like this can reap great rewards and it is not hard to see the value of a law school education in this sense. Also, I thought I read somewhere here where management consulting firms do hire law grads into consulting roles.

Let me give an example. A similar argument may be that a CPA is not required to sell enterprise software and that is true. Most enterprise software sales executives do not have a CPA. A CPA is quite possibly harder to attain than a law degree due to its certification requirements and the test is extremely difficult. Also you typically will not find strong enterprise software sales reps with a CPA b/c the two fields are vastly different and likely attract very different professionals. However, I have hired CPA's (very few) who moved into software sales and are extremely successful and benefit from the CPA certification and background b/c of the knowledge they gained and perception of the customer. And have had sales VP's specifically request we find enterprise software sales professional with a CPA. There are not many out there with that background and if we were sitting here today arguing to get a CPA to move into enterprise software sales you may say is more ludicrous than the scenario presented here. However, I can tell you someone with that background has a great opportunity for success and making much more money than they would as a CPA or even a Controller/CFO.

Very similar in this situation where it may not be necessary but does not mean it will not provide a value in the future and like it has been said it is not difficult to see how the law education may apply and be beneficial to the world of real estate.

kopper
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Re: Ah, I am a bit confused. Should I even go?

Postby kopper » Thu Apr 14, 2011 3:33 pm

bigben wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:My dad is a real estate developer and I am curently in Law school. I majored in business as an undergrad but realized that a good law school would help a lot in the long run. My dad is a very successful developer and thinks going to law school is the best decision I ever made. If you can get an MBA right now at a school like Harvard or Wharton then you should do that. If you are straight out of undergrad, though, I think law school is the better bet and since it is not costing you anything is a win win situation. Personally I plan to work in big law in the beginning but will most likely get into real estate in a few years. Lots of real estate developers went to law school. Look up Sam Zell, Stephen Ross and Stuart Miller

Your dad is probably one of those people who think that everyone who goes to law school makes bank and runs shit, and upon enrollment automatically enters an exclusive society of elites that help each other make bank and run shit.


so what is the point of your comment? how does this worthless post from you have any effect on what this poster has posted?

again, to what the anonymous poster is saying not necessary but there appear to be a number of strong real life examples of successful people who followed this same path.

no one here has said you MUST go to law school to be successful in real estate however in can be very valuable and useful. also, you may decide you want to be a practicing attorney and may be even join a biglaw firm.

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buckilaw
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Re: Ah, I am a bit confused. Should I even go?

Postby buckilaw » Thu Apr 14, 2011 3:53 pm

kopper wrote:there is an argument to be made that at a low cost three years of law school will serve better than 3 years of shit work in progressing a non-legal career. Certainly in the business world and especially in real estate.

Op would gain very little knowledge he could apply to real estate from law school classes. Op could gain much more relevant experience by working in the field and meeting people who he could work with later in his career. Op would also give up three years of income if he attended law school.

kopper wrote:Just b/c those firms don't come to OCI (god-forbid you have to find a job on your own) doesn't mean it is not a good decision to go to law school.

Finding a job through networking is much easier to do if you’re already working in the field that you wish to work in. Also, access to a law school’s OCI represents a substantial portion of the value of attending said school. Giving up that value by not participating in it (Op has stated he does not want to practice law. Real Estate firms do not recruit at law school OCI) seriously weakens the value of attending the school.

kopper wrote:non-traditional or outside of the box thinking like this can reap great rewards and it is not hard to see the value of a law school education in this sense. Also, I thought I read somewhere here where management consulting firms do hire law grads into consulting roles.

Outside of the box thinking can yield great rewards. So can playing the lottery. Investing time and hard work into actually learning about a field and networking in a field can also yield great rewards. Investing time in a field is much more likely to yield a direct and immediate benefit than anything the OP would gain by going to law school.
Management consulting firms occasionally hire law grads but they typically only recruit from elite schools. Even at elite schools the proportion of a given class hired to do consulting work is incredibly small, in all likelihood less than 1% of the class.







kopper wrote:Let me give an example. A similar argument may be that a CPA is not required to sell enterprise software and that is true. Most enterprise software sales executives do not have a CPA. A CPA is quite possibly harder to attain than a law degree due to its certification requirements and the test is extremely difficult. Also you typically will not find strong enterprise software sales reps with a CPA b/c the two fields are vastly different and likely attract very different professionals. However, I have hired CPA's (very few) who moved into software sales and are extremely successful and benefit from the CPA certification and background b/c of the knowledge they gained and perception of the customer. And have had sales VP's specifically request we find enterprise software sales professional with a CPA. There are not many out there with that background and if we were sitting here today arguing to get a CPA to move into enterprise software sales you may say is more ludicrous than the scenario presented here. However, I can tell you someone with that background has a great opportunity for success and making much more money than they would as a CPA or even a Controller/CFO.

Very similar in this situation where it may not be necessary but does not mean it will not provide a value in the future and like it has been said it is not difficult to see how the law education may apply and be beneficial to the world of real estate.

You neglect to consider that while x can benefit someone, y could benefit them to an even greater degree.
Law school could give a benefit in the OP’s situation, but the chances of a law degree actually benefiting the OP are circumspect. Working in the field could benefit the OP and the chances of realizing the benefit is a near certainty so long as the OP works hard and networks.

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swilson215
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Re: Ah, I am a bit confused. Should I even go?

Postby swilson215 » Thu Apr 14, 2011 3:57 pm

Northeast wrote:Parents are paying for CoL etc.

For real estate I thought a law degree would be quite useful? no?

Would it be hard for me to get summer work at a real estate firm/business?


My dad is a commercial broker, investor and property manager. He owns his own small firm in my hometown. Personally, he's always said he wished he would have gone to law school -- that it would have made it easier for him earlier in his career, plus then he wouldn't have to pay all those fees every time he wanted to get a PSA reviewed/approved by an attorney before presenting it to a client.

Just my $.02.

Anonymous User
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Re: Ah, I am a bit confused. Should I even go?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Apr 14, 2011 4:51 pm

My dad is a real estate developer who went to law school. Worked in Biglaw for one year, told his boss to F*ck off and started his own real estate development operation. My dad told me if I ever wanted to be part of the business I had to go to law school because he insists indespensible tool to his business. To all the people who laugh at this, I know plenty of other law grads in the industry, and to be frank they make way more money then any BigLaw partner could ever Dream of making.

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esq
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Re: Ah, I am a bit confused. Should I even go?

Postby esq » Thu Apr 14, 2011 4:56 pm

Finding the motivation to survive your first year, especially if the degree isn't really something that you want, is hard enough for those who know that a JD is what they want. You should tackle an MBA, sounds like it's where you want to be. Don't have your parents throw good money away supporting you in something that you really don't want.

P.S. Just curious, what motivated you to study for the LSAT rather than the GMAT. Seems like you must have had a reason for doing so - and at least I would have rather tackled the GMAT over learning shit like: Susie can have oatmeal cookies, but only when Mike has chocolate chip and Jennifer has peanut butter, but never when Steven has snicker doodles. Maybe insight into your reason for choosing the law school route over business will answer your question for you.
Last edited by esq on Thu Apr 14, 2011 5:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Ah, I am a bit confused. Should I even go?

Postby gabbagabba » Thu Apr 14, 2011 5:07 pm

swilson215 wrote:
Northeast wrote:Parents are paying for CoL etc.

For real estate I thought a law degree would be quite useful? no?

Would it be hard for me to get summer work at a real estate firm/business?


My dad is a commercial broker, investor and property manager. He owns his own small firm in my hometown. Personally, he's always said he wished he would have gone to law school -- that it would have made it easier for him earlier in his career, plus then he wouldn't have to pay all those fees every time he wanted to get a PSA reviewed/approved by an attorney before presenting it to a client.

Just my $.02.


Your dad doesn't know a thing about the ethical rules and neither do you. It's unethical, and grounds for disbarment, to be be involved with a client in a business deal while simultaneously acting as their lawyer in said deal. If your dad was an attorney, he'd still have to have everything reviewed by a non-party attorney




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