More Emory employment transparency

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09042014
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Re: More Emory employment transparancy

Postby 09042014 » Sun Apr 03, 2011 5:53 pm

MrAnon wrote:Yes the numbers are likely the same at any school from GW to Fordham to WUSTL.


GW and Fordham might be better. NYC and DC faired better than most markets. Chicago got fucking destroyed. About 1/3 of the SA spots there were in 2008 were there in 2010. Instead of cutting hiring from all schools by 2/3'rds, a lot of firms didn't OCI at anywhere but Harvard, Uchi, NW and Mich.

Schools like Illinois, Wustl, Emory, and other schools placing into shit markets will get hit worse than GWU, Fordham, or even SMU.

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Blindmelon
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Re: More Emory employment transparancy

Postby Blindmelon » Sun Apr 03, 2011 6:06 pm

To be fair, from people I know and talk to it seems like BC/BU and GW are just as bad for the graduating 3Ls, and other similar schools like WUSTL, etc probably are too. I know where all the 3Ls on LR at BU are working post-graduation and its either one of Ropes/Goodwin/Wilmer, some small or midsized firm no one has heard of, or is likely going to be unemployed.

On the flip-side, this year has been much, much, much better at BU/BC from what I've heard as a ton of Boston firms went from no summer class to taking 10-30 each. But when the employment numbers get released for the current 3Ls, its not going to look pretty for any school in the Emory bracket. C/O 2011 just got reamed, theres no other way of saying it.

Younger Abstention
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Re: More Emory employment transparancy

Postby Younger Abstention » Sun Apr 03, 2011 6:15 pm

It's not a lottery ticket when you can control how much work you are putting in and you know that the bottom half of the class is going to treat law school like an extension of undergrad, and not do anything.

These numbers don't look that bad, especially considering Emory is quite generous with the scholarship money.

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whuts4lunch
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Re: More Emory employment transparancy

Postby whuts4lunch » Sun Apr 03, 2011 6:24 pm

Younger Abstention wrote:the bottom half of the class is going to treat law school like an extension of undergrad, and not do anything.


Is that really the case at Emory? I've never heard the students have a reputation for being lazy.

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traehekat
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Re: More Emory employment transparancy

Postby traehekat » Sun Apr 03, 2011 6:24 pm

Younger Abstention wrote:and you know that the bottom half of the class is going to treat law school like an extension of undergrad, and not do anything.


Don't want to derail, but I don't this is a fair generalization (at least not at my school).

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wesker
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Re: More Emory employment transparancy

Postby wesker » Sun Apr 03, 2011 6:49 pm

Younger Abstention wrote:It's not a lottery ticket when you can control how much work you are putting in and you know that the bottom half of the class is going to treat law school like an extension of undergrad, and not do anything.

These numbers don't look that bad, especially considering Emory is quite generous with the scholarship money.

and then you quickly realize that even if you had an entire class of students working their asses off to do the best possible job on an exam, 50% of them would still be in the bottom half.....

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OperaSoprano
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Re: More Emory employment transparancy

Postby OperaSoprano » Sun Apr 03, 2011 6:58 pm

Younger Abstention wrote:It's not a lottery ticket when you can control how much work you are putting in and you know that the bottom half of the class is going to treat law school like an extension of undergrad, and not do anything.

These numbers don't look that bad, especially considering Emory is quite generous with the scholarship money.


Not the case here either, from everything I've seen. High grades had much more to do with effective exam taking strategy, and though there were no doubt a few people who didn't take it seriously, that number was nothing approaching half the class.

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traehekat
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Re: More Emory employment transparancy

Postby traehekat » Sun Apr 03, 2011 7:04 pm

So, I have a question. Why aren't more schools doing this? Why wasn't it done sooner?

We have been bitching about transparency for years and the whole time we have had the ability to pretty much just police ourselves, to some extent. There isn't much data that schools collect, and then release to USNWR, that students themselves couldn't collect and release.

FiveSermon
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Re: More Emory employment transparancy

Postby FiveSermon » Sun Apr 03, 2011 7:07 pm

Good to know. 50% unemployment is disturbing. I wonder if it really is as bad at GW/Fordham? Maybe BU/BC as well? They all seem to be peer schools.

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ResolutePear
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Re: More Emory employment transparancy

Postby ResolutePear » Sun Apr 03, 2011 7:09 pm

traehekat wrote:So, I have a question. Why aren't more schools doing this? Why wasn't it done sooner?

We have been bitching about transparency for years and the whole time we have had the ability to pretty much just police ourselves, to some extent. There isn't much data that schools collect, and then release to USNWR, that students themselves couldn't collect and release.


I've always thought of it as..

Universities are for academia and research. Anything outside from that is just sprinkles on the frogert called life.

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JusticeHarlan
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Re: More Emory employment transparancy

Postby JusticeHarlan » Sun Apr 03, 2011 7:12 pm

FiveSermon wrote:Good to know. 50% unemployment is disturbing. I wonder if it really is as bad at GW/Fordham? Maybe BU/BC as well? They all seem to be peer schools.

Like DF said upthread, they may be peer schools, but they're also very regional schools. How things are at each school for a given graduating class will depend on how their specific market is doing during key times (summer/fall of 2L for OCI, end of summer 2L for offers, near graduation for start-date postponements, etc).

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swc65
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Re: More Emory employment transparancy

Postby swc65 » Sun Apr 03, 2011 7:13 pm

wesker wrote:
Younger Abstention wrote:It's not a lottery ticket when you can control how much work you are putting in and you know that the bottom half of the class is going to treat law school like an extension of undergrad, and not do anything.

These numbers don't look that bad, especially considering Emory is quite generous with the scholarship money.

and then you quickly realize that even if you had an entire class of students working their asses off to do the best possible job on an exam, 50% of them would still be in the bottom half.....



not to mention some people don't take it seriously AT ALL and end up doing very well. And NO they do not have to be geniuses.

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traehekat
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Re: More Emory employment transparancy

Postby traehekat » Sun Apr 03, 2011 7:16 pm

ResolutePear wrote:
traehekat wrote:So, I have a question. Why aren't more schools doing this? Why wasn't it done sooner?

We have been bitching about transparency for years and the whole time we have had the ability to pretty much just police ourselves, to some extent. There isn't much data that schools collect, and then release to USNWR, that students themselves couldn't collect and release.


I've always thought of it as..

Universities are for academia and research. Anything outside from that is just sprinkles on the frogert called life.


Yeah, that's a little too cryptic for me.

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swc65
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Re: More Emory employment transparancy

Postby swc65 » Sun Apr 03, 2011 7:16 pm

ResolutePear wrote:
traehekat wrote:So, I have a question. Why aren't more schools doing this? Why wasn't it done sooner?

We have been bitching about transparency for years and the whole time we have had the ability to pretty much just police ourselves, to some extent. There isn't much data that schools collect, and then release to USNWR, that students themselves couldn't collect and release.


I've always thought of it as..

Universities are for academia and research. Anything outside from that is just sprinkles on the frogert called life.



I have no idea what you mean. but most of us are just too lazy to do it. And there's little personal incentive to do this once you are past the transfer/job getting/ caring about law school stage.

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traehekat
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Re: More Emory employment transparancy

Postby traehekat » Sun Apr 03, 2011 7:20 pm

swc65 wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:
traehekat wrote:So, I have a question. Why aren't more schools doing this? Why wasn't it done sooner?

We have been bitching about transparency for years and the whole time we have had the ability to pretty much just police ourselves, to some extent. There isn't much data that schools collect, and then release to USNWR, that students themselves couldn't collect and release.


I've always thought of it as..

Universities are for academia and research. Anything outside from that is just sprinkles on the frogert called life.



I have no idea what you mean. but most of us are just too lazy to do it. And there's little personal incentive to do this once you are past the transfer/job getting/ caring about law school stage.


yeah, i figured that may be a reason, along with the fact students may be unwilling to gather data that is basically going to make their school look bad.

but seriously, could you imagine if students at every school did this? it would just become the new standard for which people decide whether or not to go to law school, and to which ones. i know if i was considering emory, i would give a whole lot more weight to this data than what i read in USNWR.
Last edited by traehekat on Sun Apr 03, 2011 7:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: More Emory employment transparancy

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Sun Apr 03, 2011 7:22 pm

swc65 wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:
traehekat wrote:So, I have a question. Why aren't more schools doing this? Why wasn't it done sooner?

We have been bitching about transparency for years and the whole time we have had the ability to pretty much just police ourselves, to some extent. There isn't much data that schools collect, and then release to USNWR, that students themselves couldn't collect and release.


I've always thought of it as..

Universities are for academia and research. Anything outside from that is just sprinkles on the frogert called life.



I have no idea what you mean. but most of us are just too lazy to do it. And there's little personal incentive to do this once you are past the transfer/job getting/ caring about law school stage.


I believe that more students aren't doing this because they are concerned it will hurt their school. True, there is much value in transparency. But, there is minimal value in sharing relatively poor employment outcomes about your school when no other school is doing it - it primarily scares away students to peer schools.

For example, I would wager that at least 1 person will choose to go to GW/WashU/Fordham/Notre Dame/etc. instead of Emory after reading this thread. Are those schools in better shape? Fordham most likely is, but the others probably aren't. But the fact of the matter is, there is no hard evidence that they aren't. By sharing Emory's employment outcomes, Emory appears to be weaker than the others because the data is sitting there in front of you and it's easy to assume the others are doing better because their data is MIA.

It's give and take.

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traehekat
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Re: More Emory employment transparancy

Postby traehekat » Sun Apr 03, 2011 7:24 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:
swc65 wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:
traehekat wrote:So, I have a question. Why aren't more schools doing this? Why wasn't it done sooner?

We have been bitching about transparency for years and the whole time we have had the ability to pretty much just police ourselves, to some extent. There isn't much data that schools collect, and then release to USNWR, that students themselves couldn't collect and release.


I've always thought of it as..

Universities are for academia and research. Anything outside from that is just sprinkles on the frogert called life.



I have no idea what you mean. but most of us are just too lazy to do it. And there's little personal incentive to do this once you are past the transfer/job getting/ caring about law school stage.


I believe that more students aren't doing this because they are concerned it will hurt their school. True, there is much value in transparency. But, there is minimal value in sharing relatively poor employment outcomes about your school when no other school is doing it - it primarily scares away students to peer schools.

For example, I would wager that at least 1 person will choose to go to GW/WashU/Fordham/Notre Dame/etc. instead of Emory after reading this thread. Are those schools in better shape? Fordham most likely is, but the others probably aren't. But the fact of the matter is, there is no hard evidence that they aren't. By sharing Emory's employment outcomes, Emory appears to be weaker than the others because the data is sitting there in front of you and it's easy to assume the others are doing better because their data is MIA.

It's give and take.


but back to the idea of personal incentive - what do 3Ls care if a 0L decides to go to fordham instead of emory?

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ResolutePear
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Re: More Emory employment transparancy

Postby ResolutePear » Sun Apr 03, 2011 7:27 pm

traehekat wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:
swc65 wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:
I've always thought of it as..

Universities are for academia and research. Anything outside from that is just sprinkles on the frogert called life.



I have no idea what you mean. but most of us are just too lazy to do it. And there's little personal incentive to do this once you are past the transfer/job getting/ caring about law school stage.


I believe that more students aren't doing this because they are concerned it will hurt their school. True, there is much value in transparency. But, there is minimal value in sharing relatively poor employment outcomes about your school when no other school is doing it - it primarily scares away students to peer schools.

For example, I would wager that at least 1 person will choose to go to GW/WashU/Fordham/Notre Dame/etc. instead of Emory after reading this thread. Are those schools in better shape? Fordham most likely is, but the others probably aren't. But the fact of the matter is, there is no hard evidence that they aren't. By sharing Emory's employment outcomes, Emory appears to be weaker than the others because the data is sitting there in front of you and it's easy to assume the others are doing better because their data is MIA.

It's give and take.


but back to the idea of personal incentive - what do 3Ls care if a 0L decides to go to fordham instead of emory?


Nothing. Too many people want to be lawyers for all the wrong reasons - so there's always demand in every school.

The ABA needs to AMA themselves up already.

MrAnon
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Re: More Emory employment transparancy

Postby MrAnon » Sun Apr 03, 2011 7:31 pm

People are not circulating surveys because they are risk adverse types and are afraid they would somehow get in trouble for doing this.

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traehekat
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Re: More Emory employment transparancy

Postby traehekat » Sun Apr 03, 2011 7:31 pm

ResolutePear wrote:
traehekat wrote:but back to the idea of personal incentive - what do 3Ls care if a 0L decides to go to fordham instead of emory?


Nothing. Too many people want to be lawyers for all the wrong reasons - so there's always demand in every school.

The ABA needs to AMA themselves up already.


you think that if the actual data of all these T4/3 schools were released it wouldn't make a difference? you think there would still be people out there who would say "oh look, 80% of their graduates can't find a job and are $150k in debt. i think i'll still go."

i gotta believe that if you shove the truth in people's faces they aren't going to be able to ignore it.

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traehekat
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Re: More Emory employment transparancy

Postby traehekat » Sun Apr 03, 2011 7:32 pm

MrAnon wrote:People are not circulating surveys because they are risk adverse types and are afraid they would somehow get in trouble for doing this.


quite possible, but honestly what kind of "trouble" could anyone get in for doing this?

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ResolutePear
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Re: More Emory employment transparancy

Postby ResolutePear » Sun Apr 03, 2011 7:33 pm

traehekat wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:
traehekat wrote:but back to the idea of personal incentive - what do 3Ls care if a 0L decides to go to fordham instead of emory?


Nothing. Too many people want to be lawyers for all the wrong reasons - so there's always demand in every school.

The ABA needs to AMA themselves up already.


you think that if the actual data of all these T4/3 schools were released it wouldn't make a difference? you think there would still be people out there who would say "oh look, 80% of their graduates can't find a job and are $150k in debt. i think i'll still go."

i gotta believe that if you shove the truth in people's faces they aren't going to be able to ignore it.


Great. Go ahead and tell people to stop smoking and drinking-and-driving. See how far you get.

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traehekat
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Re: More Emory employment transparancy

Postby traehekat » Sun Apr 03, 2011 7:39 pm

ResolutePear wrote:
traehekat wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:
traehekat wrote:but back to the idea of personal incentive - what do 3Ls care if a 0L decides to go to fordham instead of emory?


Nothing. Too many people want to be lawyers for all the wrong reasons - so there's always demand in every school.

The ABA needs to AMA themselves up already.


you think that if the actual data of all these T4/3 schools were released it wouldn't make a difference? you think there would still be people out there who would say "oh look, 80% of their graduates can't find a job and are $150k in debt. i think i'll still go."

i gotta believe that if you shove the truth in people's faces they aren't going to be able to ignore it.


Great. Go ahead and tell people to stop smoking and drinking-and-driving. See how far you get.


oh well that makes sense. yeah drinking and driving is a horrible decision and could ruin your life and the lives of others BUT GOSH DARN IT PEOPLE ARE SO STUBBORN SO WE SHOULD JUST KEEP TELLING THEM IT IS A GOOD IDEA TO DRINK AND DRIVE.

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ResolutePear
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Re: More Emory employment transparancy

Postby ResolutePear » Sun Apr 03, 2011 7:41 pm

traehekat wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:
traehekat wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:
Nothing. Too many people want to be lawyers for all the wrong reasons - so there's always demand in every school.

The ABA needs to AMA themselves up already.


you think that if the actual data of all these T4/3 schools were released it wouldn't make a difference? you think there would still be people out there who would say "oh look, 80% of their graduates can't find a job and are $150k in debt. i think i'll still go."

i gotta believe that if you shove the truth in people's faces they aren't going to be able to ignore it.


Great. Go ahead and tell people to stop smoking and drinking-and-driving. See how far you get.


oh well that makes sense. yeah drinking and driving is a horrible decision and could ruin your life and the lives of others BUT GOSH DARN IT PEOPLE ARE SO STUBBORN SO WE SHOULD JUST KEEP TELLING THEM IT IS A GOOD IDEA TO DRINK AND DRIVE.


Do you suggest we close down all bars, since people advertise to go drink there? Especially those that you MUST drive to?

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traehekat
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Re: More Emory employment transparancy

Postby traehekat » Sun Apr 03, 2011 7:46 pm

ResolutePear wrote:Do you suggest we close down all bars, since people advertise to go drink there? Especially those that you MUST drive to?


No, that would suggest I think these law schools should just be closed. I'm just saying people should know what they are getting themselves into. There are all kinds of campaigns against drinking and driving, smoking, etc. that provide data which exposes the risk of engaging in these activities. You know, because that's what the responsible thing to do would be?

And I don't know the numbers, but I'm sure less people smoke now than they did before they were aware of the risks.




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