More Emory employment transparency

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D. H2Oman
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Re: More Emory employment transparency

Postby D. H2Oman » Sun Apr 03, 2011 9:59 pm

swc65 wrote:I wonder if we could organize something similar on TLS, where people self report their school and what job they have. I dunno how many 3Ls are on here though.



It's a really good idea that might unfortunately be impossible to implement.

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ggocat
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Re: More Emory employment transparancy

Postby ggocat » Sun Apr 03, 2011 10:13 pm

traehekat wrote:
ggocat wrote:
traehekat wrote:but back to the idea of personal incentive - what do 3Ls care if a 0L decides to go to fordham instead of emory?

Students still want their school to look good--more students desiring to attend means higher LSAT/UGPA, which means better reputation of the school.


i just dont think in the real world that is going to make any difference for 3Ls. it's not like they are going to release this data, and then medians are going to drop, and then employers are going to notice this, and all of a sudden stop hiring from that school. first of all, the reputation of a school is already set in stone for most employers. they don't change their minds just because fordham moves up or down a few spots in the rankings, or their LSAT median drops a few points. in fact, i would be quite surprised if they even noticed.

My two cents: even 3Ls are capable of thinking long term. "Employers" are not static. An employer is a person or collective of people. People retire/die, and others take their places. Although I may concede that person's view of a particular school is largely set in stone, I do not agree that an "employer's" view of a school is set in stone.

But even if you're correct that U.S. News rank / reputation doesn't affect hiring practices one bit, that doesn't mean students don't care. It often doesn't make a practical difference if the home team wins, but you still root for the home team.

MrAnon
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Re: More Emory employment transparency

Postby MrAnon » Sun Apr 03, 2011 10:32 pm

BIG QUESTION: WILL EMORY RESPOND TO THIS QUESTIONNAIRE TOMORROW?

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Bildungsroman
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Re: More Emory employment transparency

Postby Bildungsroman » Sun Apr 03, 2011 10:36 pm

MrAnon wrote:BIG QUESTION: WILL EMORY RESPOND TO THIS QUESTIONNAIRE TOMORROW?

Not sure you're typing large enough for Emory to see this and respond, but the capslock is a good start.

MrAnon
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Re: More Emory employment transparency

Postby MrAnon » Sun Apr 03, 2011 10:47 pm

3Ls at any given law school without jobs do not care if their school looks good, bad, or ugly. They realize they made a bad choice in life, that their tuition dollars have enriched the school and the administrators beyond comprehension, and going forward will be an uphill battle to find a job and pay their debt and that the law school can't do much to help them. They know by 3L that the local prestige of their school doesn't go far enough to find them work. They don't owe the school anything.

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Cupidity
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Re: More Emory employment transparancy

Postby Cupidity » Sun Apr 03, 2011 10:53 pm

D. H2Oman wrote:24 people out of 184 getting something out of OCI. I wonder how many were IP or URM......


32% (appx 55 students) of Emory's class is comprised of URMs. Although I think it is worth mentioning, 1L Diversity SA positions are still widely available, so it is quite possible that some URMs working at large firms did not get their position through OCI because they returned 2L. That said, these numbers are ghastly.

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traehekat
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Re: More Emory employment transparancy

Postby traehekat » Sun Apr 03, 2011 10:59 pm

ggocat wrote:
traehekat wrote:
ggocat wrote:
traehekat wrote:but back to the idea of personal incentive - what do 3Ls care if a 0L decides to go to fordham instead of emory?

Students still want their school to look good--more students desiring to attend means higher LSAT/UGPA, which means better reputation of the school.


i just dont think in the real world that is going to make any difference for 3Ls. it's not like they are going to release this data, and then medians are going to drop, and then employers are going to notice this, and all of a sudden stop hiring from that school. first of all, the reputation of a school is already set in stone for most employers. they don't change their minds just because fordham moves up or down a few spots in the rankings, or their LSAT median drops a few points. in fact, i would be quite surprised if they even noticed.

My two cents: even 3Ls are capable of thinking long term. "Employers" are not static. An employer is a person or collective of people. People retire/die, and others take their places. Although I may concede that person's view of a particular school is largely set in stone, I do not agree that an "employer's" view of a school is set in stone.

But even if you're correct that U.S. News rank / reputation doesn't affect hiring practices one bit, that doesn't mean students don't care. It often doesn't make a practical difference if the home team wins, but you still root for the home team.


I definitely get what you're saying, I just think the effect it actually may have on 3Ls, even long term, is too attenuated to say it doesn't justify the huge benefit prospective students receive from having real, basic employment data to base life altering decisions on.

MrAnon
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Re: More Emory employment transparancy

Postby MrAnon » Sun Apr 03, 2011 11:06 pm

Cupidity wrote:
D. H2Oman wrote:24 people out of 184 getting something out of OCI. I wonder how many were IP or URM......


32% (appx 55 students) of Emory's class is comprised of URMs. Although I think it is worth mentioning, 1L Diversity SA positions are still widely available, so it is quite possible that some URMs working at large firms did not get their position through OCI because they returned 2L. That said, these numbers are ghastly.


URM hiring in BIG LAW is typically limited to T14 schools.

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: More Emory employment transparency

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Sun Apr 03, 2011 11:12 pm

OperaSoprano wrote:I think part of the problem is that we, and the schools, are equating honesty with harming the reputation of the school. There is something very wrong with that thought process. Everyone knows we are just climbing out of a recession, and the class of 2011 got the worst of it. I do not think it serves anyone for schools or students to try to suppress information from the recession years. If the data has been collected, it will probably leak out, and it looks far more responsible if the school itself takes ownership and makes reliable and transparent information public.

This is not about blaming Emory or the students-- as others have said, it's about the reality of legal hiring in the markets where Emory grads commonly go. Moreover, this is data from one single year, and it has to be put into context to paint any sort of meaningful picture. The best thing for prospective students to do is to talk to current students, to get a sense of conditions for this year's 2Ls, and how much hiring has or has not improved at the school.

I love my own school very much, but I believe just as strongly that employment numbers should not be a secret, and if we had a survey of 3L outcomes, I would want it to be public.


The problem is, students think the same way as law schools do in regard data transparency. Current 2L's could offer more employment data - but if other 2L's don't offer that data too - our schools would be harmed by it. Law schools follow this logic when they only offer either limited amounts of information or aggregate data. No school wants to look weaker than another, and even a 10% difference in placement is huge in the eyes of some prospective students (even though it shouldn't be).

Also, I don't think anyone was blaming Emory for anything. Emory is a good school.

ggocat wrote:My two cents: even 3Ls are capable of thinking long term. "Employers" are not static. An employer is a person or collective of people. People retire/die, and others take their places. Although I may concede that person's view of a particular school is largely set in stone, I do not agree that an "employer's" view of a school is set in stone.


This was part of my point. Employers' view on schools will change over time due to a variety of factors. There are many factors that will go their views, including even the lay reputation of a law school.

For example: Most of us TLS.com think little of Brooklyn law (I apologize if this is a bad or offensive example). As we develop our careers, some of us will 1) be in a position to decide on whether we want to visit Brooklyn law school to recruit, 2) will receive a resume from a Brooklyn law school student/graduate, or 3) receive a request for advice on whether one should attend Brooklyn law. Because many of us now have poor feelings about the program ingrained in us, our advice and decisions not only will likely reflect those feelings, but will also affect those around us.

FiveSermon
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Re: More Emory employment transparancy

Postby FiveSermon » Mon Apr 04, 2011 12:44 am

MrAnon wrote:
Cupidity wrote:
D. H2Oman wrote:24 people out of 184 getting something out of OCI. I wonder how many were IP or URM......


32% (appx 55 students) of Emory's class is comprised of URMs. Although I think it is worth mentioning, 1L Diversity SA positions are still widely available, so it is quite possible that some URMs working at large firms did not get their position through OCI because they returned 2L. That said, these numbers are ghastly.


URM hiring in BIG LAW is typically limited to T14 schools.


Why would this be true at all?

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jenesaislaw
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Re: More Emory employment transparency

Postby jenesaislaw » Mon Apr 04, 2011 1:01 am

D. H2Oman wrote:
swc65 wrote:I wonder if we could organize something similar on TLS, where people self report their school and what job they have. I dunno how many 3Ls are on here though.



It's a really good idea that might unfortunately be impossible to implement.



We at Law School Transparency have been approached many, many times about this. One person who suggested it is a part of the scamblogger movement: http://butidideverythingrightorsoithoug ... sions.html Her post outlines my basic concerns, including validation and providing incomplete information.

In any case, there are reasons to be optimistic about the ABA reforming employment reporting. The only question I have is whether they will go far enough, and that is what we are working to ensure.

Anonymous User
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Re: More Emory employment transparancy

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Apr 04, 2011 1:21 am

FiveSermon wrote:
MrAnon wrote:
Cupidity wrote:
D. H2Oman wrote:24 people out of 184 getting something out of OCI. I wonder how many were IP or URM......


32% (appx 55 students) of Emory's class is comprised of URMs. Although I think it is worth mentioning, 1L Diversity SA positions are still widely available, so it is quite possible that some URMs working at large firms did not get their position through OCI because they returned 2L. That said, these numbers are ghastly.


URM hiring in BIG LAW is typically limited to T14 schools.


Why would this be true at all?


MrAnon is a troll, an alarmist, and (for some reason) anti-Emory. Dude, chill out...I'm sorry Emory made fun of you as a kid.

timbs4339
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Re: More Emory employment transparency

Postby timbs4339 » Mon Apr 04, 2011 2:31 am

jenesaislaw wrote:
D. H2Oman wrote:
swc65 wrote:I wonder if we could organize something similar on TLS, where people self report their school and what job they have. I dunno how many 3Ls are on here though.



It's a really good idea that might unfortunately be impossible to implement.



We at Law School Transparency have been approached many, many times about this. One person who suggested it is a part of the scamblogger movement: http://butidideverythingrightorsoithoug ... sions.html Her post outlines my basic concerns, including validation and providing incomplete information.

In any case, there are reasons to be optimistic about the ABA reforming employment reporting. The only question I have is whether they will go far enough, and that is what we are working to ensure.


My concern with the ABA employment reporting reforms are that the deans will fight hard to stall things until the recession is over, or fight to take all the teeth out of the reporting requirements. The fact that students are willing to organize and provide this data themselves is a powerful statement in and of itself. If students at other schools do something like this, it could really put some pressure on the law schools to stop fighting the ABA on this issue. The way they see it, better the devil you know than a bunch of pissed off 3Ls with too much time on their hands.

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ResolutePear
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Re: More Emory employment transparancy

Postby ResolutePear » Mon Apr 04, 2011 11:34 am

Anonymous User wrote:
FiveSermon wrote:
MrAnon wrote:
Cupidity wrote:
32% (appx 55 students) of Emory's class is comprised of URMs. Although I think it is worth mentioning, 1L Diversity SA positions are still widely available, so it is quite possible that some URMs working at large firms did not get their position through OCI because they returned 2L. That said, these numbers are ghastly.


URM hiring in BIG LAW is typically limited to T14 schools.


Why would this be true at all?


MrAnon is a troll, an alarmist, and (for some reason) anti-Emory. Dude, chill out...I'm sorry Emory made fun of you as a kid.


Anonymous for talking smack about somebody? :lol: Yeah.. that's what the feature was made for.


Also, Emory raped my dog and stole my unborn kids.

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Blindmelon
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Re: More Emory employment transparancy

Postby Blindmelon » Mon Apr 04, 2011 11:50 am

ResolutePear wrote:
Also, Emory raped my dog and stole my unborn kids.


Yes, but still, Emory's peers seem to do the same.

crossingforHYS
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Re: More Emory employment transparancy

Postby crossingforHYS » Mon Apr 04, 2011 12:14 pm

FiveSermon wrote:
MrAnon wrote:
Cupidity wrote:
D. H2Oman wrote:24 people out of 184 getting something out of OCI. I wonder how many were IP or URM......


32% (appx 55 students) of Emory's class is comprised of URMs. Although I think it is worth mentioning, 1L Diversity SA positions are still widely available, so it is quite possible that some URMs working at large firms did not get their position through OCI because they returned 2L. That said, these numbers are ghastly.


URM hiring in BIG LAW is typically limited to T14 schools.


Why would this be true at all?[/quote

exactly this wouldnt be true......

MrAnon
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Re: More Emory employment transparency

Postby MrAnon » Mon Apr 04, 2011 2:45 pm

Except for Howard, and a few other incidental examples you might be able to locate, it is largely true. Pick a random biglaw firm website and evaluate this for yourself before dismissing my comment with no evidence of your own.

Omerta
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Re: More Emory employment transparency

Postby Omerta » Tue Apr 05, 2011 6:26 pm

MrAnon wrote:Except for Howard, and a few other incidental examples you might be able to locate, it is largely true. Pick a random biglaw firm website and evaluate this for yourself before dismissing my comment with no evidence of your own.


What do you want me to do--go onto a firm's website and click their handy URM-sorter tab? I'm not going to cherry pick through 700 attorneys to refute your ridiculous assertion. Listen, I don't know why you're hating so hard on Emory. You started doing so within like 20 posts of registering and have weighed in against the school ever since. Maybe you should care less about a school you have absolutely no stake in and stop trying to start another tired URM debate. Drag your (assuredly) pasty white ass back to your troll-hole.

MrAnon
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Re: More Emory employment transparency

Postby MrAnon » Tue Apr 05, 2011 6:43 pm

It isn't limited to Emory.

FGCUguy123
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Re: More Emory employment transparency

Postby FGCUguy123 » Tue Apr 05, 2011 6:47 pm

Omerta wrote:
MrAnon wrote:Except for Howard, and a few other incidental examples you might be able to locate, it is largely true. Pick a random biglaw firm website and evaluate this for yourself before dismissing my comment with no evidence of your own.


What do you want me to do--go onto a firm's website and click their handy URM-sorter tab? I'm not going to cherry pick through 700 attorneys to refute your ridiculous assertion. Listen, I don't know why you're hating so hard on Emory. You started doing so within like 20 posts of registering and have weighed in against the school ever since. Maybe you should care less about a school you have absolutely no stake in and stop trying to start another tired URM debate. Drag your (assuredly) pasty white ass back to your troll-hole.


Furthermore, I hope you got into SUBSTANTIALLY better schools to be dragging down Emory so hard.

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swc65
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Re: More Emory employment transparency

Postby swc65 » Tue Apr 05, 2011 6:52 pm

MrAnon wrote:It isn't limited to Emory.



At least he's honest. 8)

FGCUguy123
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Re: More Emory employment transparency

Postby FGCUguy123 » Tue Apr 05, 2011 7:09 pm

swc65 wrote:
MrAnon wrote:It isn't limited to Emory.



At least he's honest. 8)


There is a fine line between honesty and antagonism.

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swc65
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Re: More Emory employment transparency

Postby swc65 » Tue Apr 05, 2011 7:15 pm

FGCUguy123 wrote:
swc65 wrote:
MrAnon wrote:It isn't limited to Emory.



At least he's honest. 8)


There is a fine line between honesty and antagonism.



I think he was being honest about being antagonistic. :D :) :D :)

FGCUguy123
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Re: More Emory employment transparency

Postby FGCUguy123 » Tue Apr 05, 2011 7:16 pm

swc65 wrote:
FGCUguy123 wrote:
swc65 wrote:
MrAnon wrote:It isn't limited to Emory.



At least he's honest. 8)


There is a fine line between honesty and antagonism.



I think he was being honest about being antagonistic. :D :) :D :)


There is a fine line between honesty and trolling*
:wink:

Omerta
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Re: More Emory employment transparency

Postby Omerta » Tue Apr 05, 2011 7:43 pm

MrAnon wrote:It isn't limited to Emory.


Fantastic! I hope you attend a top-quality school. Thank you for you graciously donating your spite to lower ranked institutions. I hope that the prestige you've acquired sustains you for the two years during which you and your similarly bile-filled associates work on some horrific securities phylactery in an anonymous NY basement. You'll be let go for "underwhelming performance" of course, but at least you didn't go to Emory.

You are why people hate lawyers: you spew meaningless invective, offer problems without solutions, and create problems if there isn't one just to remind people you exist.




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