More Emory employment transparency Forum

[gobucks101]

Sorry but people with good jobs like to show them off. they don't tend to tune out for employment surveys.

Again you don't know what you are talking about. Unless the survey says "Free Food" in the title, law students usually are not opening it

edit- For example I got 12 emails from Emory on March 29th. My smartphone would not shut up that day

[OperaSoprano]

Sorry but people with good jobs like to show them off. they don't tend to tune out for employment surveys.

Again you don't know what you are talking about. Unless the survey says "Free Food" in the title, law students usually are not opening it

edit- For example I got 12 emails from Emory on March 29th. My smartphone would not shut up that day

Can't assume everyone who didn't reply is unemployed, but I would certainly figure a higher response rate for people happy with their jobs. That just makes intuitive sense. I have heard that schools, under pressure to have the highest numbers possible, do actively pursue students they know to be employed to make sure they get the surveys back. Ideally, everyone would just respond so we wouldn't have to speculate.

[ResolutePear]

Extrapolation is a dangerous game.

[beachbum]

What the hell goes on over there in Atlanta? I feel like Emory gets way, way more bad press (and mostly from students) than its peers.

I wouldn't consider this bad press, but reality. People have license to bitch all they want, but at least some people are actually DOING things and trying to open administrative transparency. That said, I don't consider any response helpful except for the overall yes/no employment question.

Props to whoever put this together.

It definitely isn't good press. I appreciate the info, but the numbers paint a pretty dire picture. And I feel like these 3Ls had a good idea of what the employment landscape looked like before they conducted this survey. Hell, even OP rationalizes posting this data as a rebellion against the administration.

Now, I realize a lot of law schools get creative with employment reporting. And I realize schools are facing a bleak hiring market ITE. I think the outrage is justified; but why does it seem to come much more from Emory than other schools? We're not seeing angry ("donuts") e-mails from WUSTL students; we aren't watching as disgruntled GW students tear their school apart on these forums; and, we're not getting Illinois students who are conducting employment surveys and sharing them with the world.

There are certainly incidents here and there (i.e. BC student who wants his money back), but negative press seems to come disproportionately more from Emory.

[gobucks101]

OP- Thanks for posting this btw. It is interesting and should give a reality check to people to temper their expectations. A bit surprised at Big Law as under 20% of all students since we usually put around 25-30% in big firms 9 months out and it would stand to reason that those jobs would already be set at this time. On the other hand, people should keep in mind that 55 students are looking for PI and most don't hire here until bar results. Pretty much what OS said earlier. As for bad press, I can't explain it. I don't think something like this deserves that label because this is pretty much what you would expect from a 20-30 ranked school. The fact Emory isn't really repped on these boards also contributes. We need our own OperaSoprano

[Omerta]

What the hell goes on over there in Atlanta? I feel like Emory gets way, way more bad press (and mostly from students) than its peers.

I wouldn't consider this bad press, but reality. People have license to bitch all they want, but at least some people are actually DOING things and trying to open administrative transparency. That said, I don't consider any response helpful except for the overall yes/no employment question.

Props to whoever put this together.

It definitely isn't good press. I appreciate the info, but the numbers paint a pretty dire picture. And I feel like these 3Ls had a good idea of what the employment landscape looked like before they conducted this survey. Hell, even OP rationalizes posting this data as a rebellion against the administration.

Now, I realize a lot of law schools get creative with employment reporting. And I realize schools are facing a bleak hiring market ITE. I think the outrage is justified; but why does it seem to come much more from Emory than other schools? We're not seeing angry ("donuts") e-mails from WUSTL students; we aren't watching as disgruntled GW students tear their school apart on these forums; and, we're not getting Illinois students who are conducting employment surveys and sharing them with the world.

There are certainly incidents here and there (i.e. BC student who wants his money back), but negative press seems to come disproportionately more from Emory.

Why shouldn't we expect better from our administration? This whole "blue wall of silence" mentality is part of the reason why data is so hard to come by. The situation would exist regardless of whether or not people at Emory did nothing but cheerlead the school. I love Emory and I couldn't be more pleased with my choice to attend, but that doesn't mean I need to ignore problems with the overall legal market and Emory in particular. So here's an imperfect picture of our situation; it would be nice to know how similarly regarded schools did.

Otherwise, continue to compare c/o 2008 data from other schools with this data because that is a totally meaningful and fair comparison.

[beachbum]

What the hell goes on over there in Atlanta? I feel like Emory gets way, way more bad press (and mostly from students) than its peers.

I wouldn't consider this bad press, but reality. People have license to bitch all they want, but at least some people are actually DOING things and trying to open administrative transparency. That said, I don't consider any response helpful except for the overall yes/no employment question.

Props to whoever put this together.

It definitely isn't good press. I appreciate the info, but the numbers paint a pretty dire picture. And I feel like these 3Ls had a good idea of what the employment landscape looked like before they conducted this survey. Hell, even OP rationalizes posting this data as a rebellion against the administration.

Now, I realize a lot of law schools get creative with employment reporting. And I realize schools are facing a bleak hiring market ITE. I think the outrage is justified; but why does it seem to come much more from Emory than other schools? We're not seeing angry ("donuts") e-mails from WUSTL students; we aren't watching as disgruntled GW students tear their school apart on these forums; and, we're not getting Illinois students who are conducting employment surveys and sharing them with the world.

There are certainly incidents here and there (i.e. BC student who wants his money back), but negative press seems to come disproportionately more from Emory.

Why shouldn't we expect better from our administration? This whole "blue wall of silence" mentality is part of the reason why data is so hard to come by. The situation would exist regardless of whether or not people at Emory did nothing but cheerlead the school. I love Emory and I couldn't be more pleased with my choice to attend, but that doesn't mean I need to ignore problems with the overall legal market and Emory in particular. So here's an imperfect picture of our situation; it would be nice to know how similarly regarded schools did.

Otherwise, continue to compare c/o 2008 data from other schools with this data because that is a totally meaningful and fair comparison.

I don't think you're following my point. I agree that these numbers are helpful, and it would be great if peers (and hell, all schools) put together similar surveys. I was just expressing interest because stuff like this (and much, much worse) always seems to come from Emory. And, for that matter, Emory seems to take more of a beating on these forums (from non-students) than many of its peers.

[MrAnon]

we usually put around 25-30% in big firms 9 months out

This is 2011, not 2005.

it would stand to reason that those jobs would already be set at this time.

They are set. It would stand to reason that the 9 month data is false or misleading if it shows an increase in large firm employment going forward. It could be misleading in the sense that students are being employed in temporary document review positions at these large firms at 9 months out.

[gobucks101]

we usually put around 25-30% in big firms 9 months out

This is 2011, not 2005.

it would stand to reason that those jobs would already be set at this time.

They are set. It would stand to reason that the 9 month data is false or misleading if it shows an increase in large firm employment going forward. It could be misleading in the sense that students are being employed in temporary document review positions at these large firms at 9 months out.

54 1st year associates in the NLJ 250 and 21.18% of the class in 2010. That was during the height of the meltdown. I repeat- we usually put 25-30% in big firms and given that our worst year we still put about 21% there, the data is surprising. Before you try to correct someone, Google is your friend.

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 2483173162

[Omerta]

I don't think you're following my point. I agree that these numbers are helpful, and it would be great if peers (and hell, all schools) put together similar surveys. I was just expressing interest because stuff like this (and much, much worse) always seems to come from Emory. And, for that matter, Emory seems to take more of a beating on these forums (from non-students) than many of its peers.

I have no idea why Emory gets a worse rep than its peer schools on this board, but it's something I've definitely noticed even before this rankings dumpster-fire started.

[bport hopeful]

Would it be reasonable to believe that the numbers at peer schools would be similar. The Emory hate is scary for people like myself who were recently accepted.

[MrAnon]

Yes the numbers are likely the same at any school from GW to Fordham to WUSTL.

[gobucks101]

Would it be reasonable to believe that the numbers at peer schools would be similar. The Emory hate is scary for people like myself who were recently accepted.

I don't know about other schools but my gut is that it is similar. If you have some fears about Emory, this is a good thread with honest answers http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 4&t=148802

Aside from Anon derailing it for a bit it has a lot of good info and quite a few of us current students frequent it.

[OperaSoprano]

I don't think you're following my point. I agree that these numbers are helpful, and it would be great if peers (and hell, all schools) put together similar surveys. I was just expressing interest because stuff like this (and much, much worse) always seems to come from Emory. And, for that matter, Emory seems to take more of a beating on these forums (from non-students) than many of its peers.

I have no idea why Emory gets a worse rep than its peer schools on this board, but it's something I've definitely noticed even before this rankings dumpster-fire started.

I think this is true. Weighing in to say also that we all realize '08 and even '09 numbers are not a meaningful comparison, but most of us have nothing better. I mean to share Fordham's 2010 numbers the moment I can get them, because the school makes them public in the first place, as well they should, and I think the transparency reflects positively on any school. I am not at all convinced that Emory is somehow worse than peer schools, and without surveys from every other school from about #19 on down, I am not sure how we could know that.

Also, I didn't even look at the forum this was in, but if there are no objections, I will move this thread to the employment forum.

[ResolutePear]

If you pre-law peeps are soooo worried about employment, then go into a field that's actually in demand and stop bitching. I hear the AMA and ADA don't allow over-saturation.

/thread-for-them.

[MrAnon]

we usually put around 25-30% in big firms 9 months out

This is 2011, not 2005.

it would stand to reason that those jobs would already be set at this time.

They are set. It would stand to reason that the 9 month data is false or misleading if it shows an increase in large firm employment going forward. It could be misleading in the sense that students are being employed in temporary document review positions at these large firms at 9 months out.

54 1st year associates in the NLJ 250 and 21.18% of the class in 2010. That was during the height of the meltdown. I repeat- we usually put 25-30% in big firms and given that our worst year we still put about 21% there, the data is surprising. Before you try to correct someone, Google is your friend.

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 2483173162

Then it appears that the negative downtrend started last year is worsening.

[FGCUguy123]

This doesn't surprise me. The "9 month after graduation' stat is more helpful. Imagine this: after 9 months, 100% of the graduating class of that year receives salaries of (and I'm obviously being facetious) $300,000. Now... doesn't it seem irrelevant what the stats were for employment security/salaries at the time of graduation?

Strongly disagree, it's much less helpful. We basically know where the people who are graduating unemployed are going to end up. The people who get jobs between graduation and nine months will overwhelmingly get small firm and non-legal jobs. I love when people cite the 95% 9 month employed rate schools send USNews as if that means anything at all. A ton of those jobs are shitty, temporary, and non legal. These numbers are objectively terrible.

What evidence do you have that shows the jobs obtained are bad? "We basically know" seems, as you put it, "objectively terrible."

[OperaSoprano]

we usually put around 25-30% in big firms 9 months out

This is 2011, not 2005.

it would stand to reason that those jobs would already be set at this time.

They are set. It would stand to reason that the 9 month data is false or misleading if it shows an increase in large firm employment going forward. It could be misleading in the sense that students are being employed in temporary document review positions at these large firms at 9 months out.

54 1st year associates in the NLJ 250 and 21.18% of the class in 2010. That was during the height of the meltdown. I repeat- we usually put 25-30% in big firms and given that our worst year we still put about 21% there, the data is surprising. Before you try to correct someone, Google is your friend.

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 2483173162

Then it appears that the negative downtrend started last year is worsening.

If I had to guess just based on what people around me have told me, I would say 25% ish from OCI this year, and a few more from personal connections (good sized firms, but perhaps not the most prestigious.) There were also some people who got attorney jobs with their current or former biglaw employers. So I wouldn't say necessarily worsening, but also not growing by leaps and bounds. I do not think c/o '12 was in the full recovery zone yet. I hesitate to slap a total number on it, because this is anecdotal stuff, but I would be surprised to see schools posting worse numbers than in '10 and '11.

[Aberzombie1892]

Yeah there likely won't be a big change in employment outcomes until the class 2013.

The classes of 2011/2012 are in a rough shape.

[traehekat]

Just want to commend OP on posting this, and whoever got the ball rolling on doing the survey.

[Grizz]

Yeah there likely won't be a big change in employment outcomes until the class 2013.

The classes of 2011/2012 are in a rough shape.

Firms that have signed up to OCI here are up 15%, and it's likely to be higher. Deadline isn't until mid-summer.

[Aberzombie1892]

Yeah there likely won't be a big change in employment outcomes until the class 2013.

The classes of 2011/2012 are in a rough shape.

Firms that have signed up to OCI here are up 15%, and it's likely to be higher. Deadline isn't until mid-summer.

Is that really a big change? True, it's better, but "big change" it is not.

[hawkeye22]

**If** I have a good job on graduation, I look forward to tossing my employment info form in the trash.

[FlanAl]

Not to de-rail but does anyone know if there was a survey like this at any of the t14 schools? It would be really nice to be able to see the contrast

[traehekat]

Not to de-rail but does anyone know if there was a survey like this at any of the t14 schools? It would be really nice to be able to see the contrast

This is the first survey of its kind from any school that I have seen, which is why it is pretty cool. Maybe I've been living under a rock, though, and there are other schools who have been doing this and releasing the results.