2L at Hastings, no job, freaking out...You?

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prezidentv8
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Re: 2L at Hastings, no job, freaking out...You?

Postby prezidentv8 » Sun Apr 03, 2011 3:02 pm

This thread is relevant to my interests.

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joobacca
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Re: 2L at Hastings, no job, freaking out...You?

Postby joobacca » Sun Apr 03, 2011 3:24 pm

CSO is so worthless, but maybe it's worth a shot? they'll tell you to "network" and conduct "informational interviews." they'll at least narrow the field for you so you know what types of employers to target.

i don't know. i'd freak out too. the situation is fucked. at least you're not alone?

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prezidentv8
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Re: 2L at Hastings, no job, freaking out...You?

Postby prezidentv8 » Sun Apr 03, 2011 3:25 pm

joobacca wrote: they'll tell you to "network" and conduct "informational interviews."


I always hate this advice.

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joobacca
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Re: 2L at Hastings, no job, freaking out...You?

Postby joobacca » Sun Apr 03, 2011 3:27 pm

prezidentv8 wrote:
joobacca wrote: they'll tell you to "network" and conduct "informational interviews."


I always hate this advice.

i am curious about who actually does these informational interviews. the premise is foreign and ridiculous to me.

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gwuorbust
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Re: 2L at Hastings, no job, freaking out...You?

Postby gwuorbust » Sun Apr 03, 2011 3:38 pm

joobacca wrote:
prezidentv8 wrote:
joobacca wrote: they'll tell you to "network" and conduct "informational interviews."


I always hate this advice.

i am curious about who actually does these informational interviews. the premise is foreign and ridiculous to me.


I can see it being a good long-term strategy. Like, if I had done some over my 1L year that is coming to a close. then, after this summer, I could email them up and be like "hey, 6 months have gone by..I remember you said your ambulance chasing division is growing..I worked in ambulance chasing at XYZ over this summer...I am starting to look for 2L employers..can I haz jerb?"

polaris769
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Re: 2L at Hastings, no job, freaking out...You?

Postby polaris769 » Sun Apr 03, 2011 3:56 pm

I think mass-mailing via e-mails can be useful but you have to send out a lot to make it work. I.e.- if you send out 200 e-mails, you might get a response from 8 of the employers.

Anonymous User
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Re: 2L at Hastings, no job, freaking out...You?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Apr 03, 2011 6:34 pm

The concepts "networking" and "informational interview" confuse me, too. At networking events sponsored by Hastings, I often feel that I have nothing to say. It's not that I feel tongue-tied; it's just that I can't come up with any questions or conversation topics that would make me memorable. When I call attorneys, I get nervous over the phone. Last time I called a solo practitioner to follow up on my informational interview email, he said that his website contains a lot of information and that I could answer any questions he has that are not on the website. I didn't know what to say in response to that...I am feeling really anxious about phone calls in general.

Hastings Career Service sent out an email about how to keep in touch with contacts:

"...Seek Advice: One of the best ways to keep a helpful contact in a mentoring role is to continue to turn to them for advice. Have an upcoming interview? Email them to see if they know about the employer. Write and ask for advice about classes/clinics/externships to take in the fall. Ask for help/advice on picking a journal note topic. Trying to decide between summer school and holding out for a firm job and not sure what would look best on your resume? Write or call and ask their opinion."

I have never done that, and I would feel like a burden to attorneys if I were to do seek advice on a constant basis in order to keep in touch. Any advice?

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joobacca
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Re: 2L at Hastings, no job, freaking out...You?

Postby joobacca » Sun Apr 03, 2011 8:06 pm

yea, that line from CSO doesn't make much sense to me. unless attorneys really like super annoying people, i don't really see that working. but whatever. bottom line is that CSO isn't to blame because they can't do shit for their students. and that's fine with me because CSO is constrained by reality as much as everyone else is. they're not magicians. they're essentially telling us to play an even unlikelier lottery than OCI when they recommend networking events and information interviews. they can't do shit. i'm confident of this and i think they know this as well.

what can you do but continue to solicit firms? i think CSO is helpful in this area because they'll tell you what types of firms are hiring. i mean, it's not super useful stuff. big firms are done, and were nearly impossible to attain anyway unless you were within a certain GPA range. medium-ish firms are probably wrapping up hiring. honestly, those jobs are probably all gone by now too.

you're freaking out, but too many factors are beyond your control now. i say try as hard as you want in the job hunt, or try hard enough so you don't have regrets. OR say fuck it. honestly, you're probably not going to get the type of job you want. and you're not alone. some of our classmates are having a hard time working for free. the weather is beautiful and we live in one of the greatest cities. maybe on a nice weekend day you should take some mushrooms/dmt/whatever and figure out what you want.

scramble now or say fuck it, and don't do anything in the middle. that's my totally useless rec.

MrAnon
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Re: 2L at Hastings, no job, freaking out...You?

Postby MrAnon » Sun Apr 03, 2011 8:22 pm

The info has always been out there for years now--- not everyone finds jobs, legal jobs, desirable legal jobs. I would look for any job with any sort of tangential connection to law at this point.

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drdolittle
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Re: 2L at Hastings, no job, freaking out...You?

Postby drdolittle » Sun Apr 03, 2011 9:18 pm

Career services' advice to call and interact with potential employers is an easy thing for them to say, and kind of protects their ass as well because it allows everyone to think that they're doing their job. But really, this advice immediately shifts the burden back on students, who, after interacting/calling and not getting selected, are left to think that they were a bad "fit" for a position due to personality. Oh well...This is all too easy v. telling students exactly how they should target specific employers given what they have to offer and whether it's even worth it contacting others if no job is advertised.

As many others have posted before on TLS, if there's no job available, a charming phone conversation will not change that. On the other hand, if there is a position, a phone call just might help demonstrate, maybe simply to the secretary organizing the applications, that you're seriously interested...But as others have said, I can't imagine random "informational" phone calls being all that helpful. Except maybe to offer free services?

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gwuorbust
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Re: 2L at Hastings, no job, freaking out...You?

Postby gwuorbust » Sun Apr 03, 2011 9:39 pm

drdolittle wrote:As many others have posted before on TLS, if there's no job available, a charming phone conversation will not change that. On the other hand, if there is a position, a phone call just might help demonstrate, maybe simply to the secretary organizing the applications, that you're seriously interested...But as others have said, I can't imagine random "informational" phone calls being all that helpful. Except maybe to offer free services?


see, you should not think of having a "charming conversation" as the endgame. This is flat up cold calling/selling. People sell shit via phone all the time(though the market was MUCH bigger before the Do Not Call Act). You call up 100 people and offer to sell them a magazine. say 95% can't read/hate-reading/can't-afford/etc. end the convo and dial someone else. you talk to five people in a pleasant conversation and then hopefully close one or two sales.

while you are not selling magazines here, you can sell abilities. ask if they have any thoughts on having a summer associate. if they don't, move on. if they "will think about it," add their number to a list and call back in a week. discuss how you can handle some of their work which will allow them to focus on new client acquisition. rinse and repeat.

I do not think you will land a BigLaw job this way. but small firms that do not have active recruitment strategies could be the perfect target for a campaign like this.

FiveSermon
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Re: 2L at Hastings, no job, freaking out...You?

Postby FiveSermon » Sun Apr 03, 2011 9:40 pm

Clueless 0L tagging for future reference.

Tenderloin1981
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Re: 2L at Hastings, no job, freaking out...You?

Postby Tenderloin1981 » Sun Apr 03, 2011 9:51 pm

gwuorbust wrote:
see, you should not think of having a "charming conversation" as the endgame. This is flat up cold calling/selling. People sell shit via phone all the time(though the market was MUCH bigger before the Do Not Call Act). You call up 100 people and offer to sell them a magazine. say 95% can't read/hate-reading/can't-afford/etc. end the convo and dial someone else. you talk to five people in a pleasant conversation and then hopefully close one or two sales.

while you are not selling magazines here, you can sell abilities. ask if they have any thoughts on having a summer associate. if they don't, move on. if they "will think about it," add their number to a list and call back in a week. discuss how you can handle some of their work which will allow them to focus on new client acquisition. rinse and repeat.

I do not think you will land a BigLaw job this way. but small firms that do not have active recruitment strategies could be the perfect target for a campaign like this.


Wow! This is very, very helpful. That makes me feel much more confident about picking up the phone. I love the analogy you used, and that gives me a much clearer picture of what the phone calls are essentially about. Thank you so much!!!

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Re: 2L at Hastings, no job, freaking out...You?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Apr 03, 2011 11:22 pm

gwuorbust: do we have to send people thank-you notes if they say they are not looking? Or is that not necessary? Thanks!!!

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Re: 2L at Hastings, no job, freaking out...You?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Apr 03, 2011 11:52 pm

you're not alone. i'm top 5%, LR, no leads, and contemplating suicide.

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gwuorbust
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Re: 2L at Hastings, no job, freaking out...You?

Postby gwuorbust » Sun Apr 03, 2011 11:57 pm

Anonymous User wrote:gwuorbust: do we have to send people thank-you notes if they say they are not looking? Or is that not necessary? Thanks!!!


if they say they are not looking period, I wouldn't. figure out if they just aren't interested now or if they just aren't interested in general. do this by asking if they would be interested in you contacting them in the future. if they say yes, see below.

if they say they are not looking but you should contact them once you have passed the bar or graduated, for sure send them a note or email. those might be the kind of people you casually keep in contact with over the next year(maybe provide them with a "career update" after the summer letting them know what you learned and how much you have gained real-world legal skillzs). then if you do not have anything after you have passed the bar you may have accumulated a collection of 20 leads that said you should contact them after the bar. that way even if you don't have a job when you pass the bar, at least you will have these leads you can reach out to and say "I did it, we've kept in contact, and I think I could help your firm." while not a guaranteed job by any stretch - it is certainly better than randomly responding to craigslist posts.

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drdolittle
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Re: 2L at Hastings, no job, freaking out...You?

Postby drdolittle » Mon Apr 04, 2011 12:10 am

Anonymous User wrote:you're not alone. i'm top 5%, LR, no leads, and contemplating suicide.

At Hastings?! You must've gotten some serious looks with those creds. What do you think happened?

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gwuorbust
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Re: 2L at Hastings, no job, freaking out...You?

Postby gwuorbust » Mon Apr 04, 2011 12:12 am

drdolittle wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:you're not alone. i'm top 5%, LR, no leads, and contemplating suicide.

At Hastings?! You must've gotten some serious looks with those creds. What do you think happened?

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gwuorbust
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Re: 2L at Hastings, no job, freaking out...You?

Postby gwuorbust » Mon Apr 04, 2011 12:23 am

Also, I would also suggest applying to some "non-typical" organizations. Case in point: I applied to all ~30 venture capital, private equity and investment banking firms here in New Orleans (none are movers and shakers in the industry, but they are important nonetheless). Of the 30 I got two interviews and one email saying "email us at the end of May, there is a 50/50 chance we can hire you." I blew one the the interviews (under-prepared) and the second one I don't think I'm going to take (not paid and I won't learn much).

What I heard from every firm I heard back from (I also got three personal rejection emails) was that they had NEVER had a law school applicant. The point is that there may be many opportunities in areas you and nobody else has even thought of. Landing in-house counsel gigs is considered near impossible. However, that is probably more because such opportunities are rarely posted. Think if you email 100 medium sized "green energy" companies about how you are on the environmental law journal, have extensive knowledge of energy law and believe that you can help them with their legal work. You might intrigue a few ppl and snag a few interviews. You would essentially be creating your own position - but what is wrong with that?

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drdolittle
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Re: 2L at Hastings, no job, freaking out...You?

Postby drdolittle » Mon Apr 04, 2011 12:27 am

gwuorbust wrote:Landing in-house counsel gigs is considered near impossible. However, that is probably more because such opportunities are rarely posted.

Interesting point. I've often wondered about this...

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Re: 2L at Hastings, no job, freaking out...You?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Apr 04, 2011 12:41 am

drdolittle wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:you're not alone. i'm top 5%, LR, no leads, and contemplating suicide.

At Hastings?! You must've gotten some serious looks with those creds. What do you think happened?


nope, emory. got shut out of biglaw--my 1L grades weren't quite as good. also, i go to a TTT, which likely didn't help. after oci, i've just had exceptionally bad luck. that's the only explanation, since last i checked i wasn't deformed.

FiveSermon
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Re: 2L at Hastings, no job, freaking out...You?

Postby FiveSermon » Mon Apr 04, 2011 12:43 am

Anonymous User wrote:
drdolittle wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:you're not alone. i'm top 5%, LR, no leads, and contemplating suicide.

At Hastings?! You must've gotten some serious looks with those creds. What do you think happened?


nope, emory. got shut out of biglaw--my 1L grades weren't quite as good. also, i go to a TTT, which likely didn't help. after oci, i've just had exceptionally bad luck. that's the only explanation, since last i checked i wasn't deformed.


What were your 1l grades like?

Anonymous User
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Re: 2L at Hastings, no job, freaking out...You?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Apr 04, 2011 12:49 am

FiveSermon wrote:What were your 1l grades like?


top 15%.

FiveSermon
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Re: 2L at Hastings, no job, freaking out...You?

Postby FiveSermon » Mon Apr 04, 2011 12:50 am

Anonymous User wrote:
FiveSermon wrote:What were your 1l grades like?


top 15%.


I'm confused. You go to Emory? Or a TTT?

Anonymous User
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Re: 2L at Hastings, no job, freaking out...You?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Apr 04, 2011 12:58 am

FiveSermon wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
FiveSermon wrote:What were your 1l grades like?


top 15%.


I'm confused. You go to Emory? Or a TTT?


they are the same thing.




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