T14 2L with no job - ideas for post law school

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fatduck
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Re: T14 2L with no job - ideas for post law school

Postby fatduck » Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:35 pm

drummerboy wrote:Explain shit law please. What are the hierarchies of potential jobs? I Know Biglaw Midlaw whats next?Thanks Im a 0L

this is a good question to ask during your interviews. "excuse me, i'm having trouble determining if your firm is in midlaw or shitlaw. there wasn't much information about this on your website. could you go into more detail, please?"

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Re: T14 2L with no job - ideas for post law school

Postby drummerboy » Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:42 pm

whats your answer to my question?

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Cade McNown
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Re: T14 2L with no job - ideas for post law school

Postby Cade McNown » Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:42 pm

romothesavior wrote:IConsulting is not any easy field to get into


I will dispute this. If you're smart enough to get into a T14, you're smart enough to land a consulting job at E&Y, Deloitte, KPMG (whatever the 4th is...). Also Bain, IBM, Google even...just general business consulting gigs are so widespread that if you cast enough lines you will land something. How well do you interview? Do you have experience with problem solving and/or behavioral interview questions? They really aren't all that they're hyped up to be...If you can study for the lsat, you can study for those.

Really though, why consulting after law school. For most people it works the other way around. I really think you're best off working to land the best legal employment you can and just be satisfied with that temporarily while you work your way up the food chain.

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Re: T14 2L with no job - ideas for post law school

Postby Sam Seaborn » Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:46 pm

Cade McNown wrote:
romothesavior wrote:IConsulting is not any easy field to get into


I will dispute this. If you're smart enough to get into a T14, you're smart enough to land a consulting job at E&Y, Deloitte, KPMG (whatever the 4th is...). Also Bain, IBM, Google even...just general business consulting gigs are so widespread that if you cast enough lines you will land something. How well do you interview? Do you have experience with problem solving and/or behavioral interview questions? They really aren't all that they're hyped up to be...If you can study for the lsat, you can study for those.

Really though, why consulting after law school. For most people it works the other way around. I really think you're best off working to land the best legal employment you can and just be satisfied with that temporarily while you work your way up the food chain.


This is actually false. Consulting is pretty damn hard to break into without top grades in either business, math/stats, or engineering. T-14 schools are full of kids who got 4.0s in Poli Sci and Communications, but that ain't going to cut it at MBB or many other consulting firms.

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Re: T14 2L with no job - ideas for post law school

Postby Patriot1208 » Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:54 pm

Cade McNown wrote:
romothesavior wrote:IConsulting is not any easy field to get into


I will dispute this. If you're smart enough to get into a T14, you're smart enough to land a consulting job at E&Y, Deloitte, KPMG (whatever the 4th is...). Also Bain, IBM, Google even...just general business consulting gigs are so widespread that if you cast enough lines you will land something. How well do you interview? Do you have experience with problem solving and/or behavioral interview questions? They really aren't all that they're hyped up to be...If you can study for the lsat, you can study for those.

Really though, why consulting after law school. For most people it works the other way around. I really think you're best off working to land the best legal employment you can and just be satisfied with that temporarily while you work your way up the food chain.

This is wrong, not to mention it's damn hard to get an interview, even at a place like Deloitte, if you didn't go to a top school. There are tons of people at top 14's who went to average state undergrads that would have a very hard time landing an interview in S&O at Deloitte.
Last edited by Patriot1208 on Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Cade McNown
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Re: T14 2L with no job - ideas for post law school

Postby Cade McNown » Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:55 pm

Sam Seaborn wrote:
Cade McNown wrote:
romothesavior wrote:IConsulting is not any easy field to get into


I will dispute this. If you're smart enough to get into a T14, you're smart enough to land a consulting job at E&Y, Deloitte, KPMG (whatever the 4th is...). Also Bain, IBM, Google even...just general business consulting gigs are so widespread that if you cast enough lines you will land something. How well do you interview? Do you have experience with problem solving and/or behavioral interview questions? They really aren't all that they're hyped up to be...If you can study for the lsat, you can study for those.

Really though, why consulting after law school. For most people it works the other way around. I really think you're best off working to land the best legal employment you can and just be satisfied with that temporarily while you work your way up the food chain.


This is actually false. Consulting is pretty damn hard to break into without top grades in either business, math/stats, or engineering. T-14 schools are full of kids who got 4.0s in Poli Sci and Communications, but that ain't going to cut it at MBB or many other consulting firms.


Admittedly basing my impressions only on my UG classmates, but everyone I know who wanted consulting got consulting. 100%, between 15-25 students. Only one got Google, and only one Bain, but you're really going to tell me it's tough to land Deloitte. Come on now. Also, I come from liberal arts college and these students had majors everywhere from Foreign Languages to IR to Philosophy...A majority of them had significant background in economics which must have helped, but was by no means necessary.

Anyway, my point was that it's all about the interviews and since I suspect a 3L has developed those (or could with some ease), even bigtime consulting aint that tough.

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Re: T14 2L with no job - ideas for post law school

Postby Patriot1208 » Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:56 pm

Cade McNown wrote:
Sam Seaborn wrote:
Cade McNown wrote:I will dispute this. If you're smart enough to get into a T14, you're smart enough to land a consulting job at E&Y, Deloitte, KPMG (whatever the 4th is...). Also Bain, IBM, Google even...just general business consulting gigs are so widespread that if you cast enough lines you will land something. How well do you interview? Do you have experience with problem solving and/or behavioral interview questions? They really aren't all that they're hyped up to be...If you can study for the lsat, you can study for those.

Really though, why consulting after law school. For most people it works the other way around. I really think you're best off working to land the best legal employment you can and just be satisfied with that temporarily while you work your way up the food chain.


This is actually false. Consulting is pretty damn hard to break into without top grades in either business, math/stats, or engineering. T-14 schools are full of kids who got 4.0s in Poli Sci and Communications, but that ain't going to cut it at MBB or many other consulting firms.


Admittedly basing my impressions only on my UG classmates, but everyone I know who wanted consulting got consulting. 100%, between 15-25 students. Only one got Google, and only one Bain, but you're really going to tell me it's tough to land Deloitte. Come on now. Also, I come from liberal arts college and these students had majors everywhere from Foreign Languages to IR to Philosophy...A majority of them had significant background in economics which must have helped, but was by no means necessary.

Anyway, my point was that it's all about the interviews and since I suspect a 3L has developed those (or could with some ease), even bigtime consulting aint that tough.

Since when is Google consulting? I think the OP was talking about Strategy consulting, bro.

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Re: T14 2L with no job - ideas for post law school

Postby Sam Seaborn » Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:59 pm

Doucher wrote:everyone I know who wanted consulting got consulting. 100%, between 15-25 students


Never mind, it must be true that consulting is easy to get into if all of this guy's friends got it. I retract whatever I said previously.

[Fixed, sorry broski]
Last edited by Sam Seaborn on Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: T14 2L with no job - ideas for post law school

Postby Patriot1208 » Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:00 pm

Check yo quote attributions

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Re: T14 2L with no job - ideas for post law school

Postby Cade McNown » Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:01 pm

Patriot1208 wrote:[
This is wrong, not to mention it's damn hard to get an interview, even at a place like Deloitte, if you didn't go to a top school. There are tons of people at top 14's who went to average state undergrads that would have a hard time landing a job in S&O at Deloitte.


Nobody from my school was denied an interview. So yes maybe my impressions are unrealistic. Amend it to say, if you can get first interviews, then you can work your way to a job as long as you send out enough applications.

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Re: T14 2L with no job - ideas for post law school

Postby Patriot1208 » Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:03 pm

Cade McNown wrote:
Patriot1208 wrote:[
This is wrong, not to mention it's damn hard to get an interview, even at a place like Deloitte, if you didn't go to a top school. There are tons of people at top 14's who went to average state undergrads that would have a hard time landing a job in S&O at Deloitte.


Nobody from my school was denied an interview. So yes maybe my impressions are unrealistic. Amend it to say, if you can get first interviews, then you can work your way to a job as long as you send out enough applications.

I'm guessing you went to a school like Amherst? I'm sure someone didn't get an interview. I go to a pretty good undergrad and there aren't certainly people not getting interviews, even from places like Deloitte.

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Re: T14 2L with no job - ideas for post law school

Postby Alex-Trof » Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:04 pm

Cade McNown wrote:
Sam Seaborn wrote:
Cade McNown wrote:
romothesavior wrote:IConsulting is not any easy field to get into


I will dispute this. If you're smart enough to get into a T14, you're smart enough to land a consulting job at E&Y, Deloitte, KPMG (whatever the 4th is...). Also Bain, IBM, Google even...just general business consulting gigs are so widespread that if you cast enough lines you will land something. How well do you interview? Do you have experience with problem solving and/or behavioral interview questions? They really aren't all that they're hyped up to be...If you can study for the lsat, you can study for those.

Really though, why consulting after law school. For most people it works the other way around. I really think you're best off working to land the best legal employment you can and just be satisfied with that temporarily while you work your way up the food chain.


This is actually false. Consulting is pretty damn hard to break into without top grades in either business, math/stats, or engineering. T-14 schools are full of kids who got 4.0s in Poli Sci and Communications, but that ain't going to cut it at MBB or many other consulting firms.


Admittedly basing my impressions only on my UG classmates, but everyone I know who wanted consulting got consulting. 100%, between 15-25 students. Only one got Google, and only one Bain, but you're really going to tell me it's tough to land Deloitte. Come on now. Also, I come from liberal arts college and these students had majors everywhere from Foreign Languages to IR to Philosophy...A majority of them had significant background in economics which must have helped, but was by no means necessary.

Anyway, my point was that it's all about the interviews and since I suspect a 3L has developed those (or could with some ease), even bigtime consulting aint that tough.


When you're saying "got consulting" what exactly do you mean? They became analysts for top firms like Bain, McKinsey, or Deloitte? I highly doubt that. It is very difficult to get and I would argue it is at least as difficult as getting into a top JD program. It requires a completely different skill set. High GPA and good LSAT score =/= good case interviewing, personality fit, and relevant experience/classes in undergrad.

OP, you don't want to be an analyst with an advanced degree. You will have to aim for an associate. However, to get an associate you would have to have work experience as an analyst or something comparable. So, IMO, forget about consulting.

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Re: T14 2L with no job - ideas for post law school

Postby Sam Seaborn » Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:04 pm

It seemed to me that accounting was almost a pre-req for getting an interview for MBB and the like. This is just what someone who worked there told me, they weren't involved with hiring or anything like that but it seems like you gotta have some kind of quantitative background to get in.

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Re: T14 2L with no job - ideas for post law school

Postby girlonfire » Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:05 pm

.
Last edited by girlonfire on Tue Mar 29, 2011 2:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: T14 2L with no job - ideas for post law school

Postby Cade McNown » Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:06 pm

Patriot1208 wrote:[
Since when is Google consulting? I think the OP was talking about Strategy consulting, bro.


It isn't, I was introducing a new idea. Google is unconventional and so I really don't see a problem clumping it with companies like consulting firms just because both draw from the same applicant pool: smart people.

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Re: T14 2L with no job - ideas for post law school

Postby Patriot1208 » Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:07 pm

Alex-Trof wrote:
Cade McNown wrote:
Sam Seaborn wrote:
Cade McNown wrote:I will dispute this. If you're smart enough to get into a T14, you're smart enough to land a consulting job at E&Y, Deloitte, KPMG (whatever the 4th is...). Also Bain, IBM, Google even...just general business consulting gigs are so widespread that if you cast enough lines you will land something. How well do you interview? Do you have experience with problem solving and/or behavioral interview questions? They really aren't all that they're hyped up to be...If you can study for the lsat, you can study for those.

Really though, why consulting after law school. For most people it works the other way around. I really think you're best off working to land the best legal employment you can and just be satisfied with that temporarily while you work your way up the food chain.


This is actually false. Consulting is pretty damn hard to break into without top grades in either business, math/stats, or engineering. T-14 schools are full of kids who got 4.0s in Poli Sci and Communications, but that ain't going to cut it at MBB or many other consulting firms.


Admittedly basing my impressions only on my UG classmates, but everyone I know who wanted consulting got consulting. 100%, between 15-25 students. Only one got Google, and only one Bain, but you're really going to tell me it's tough to land Deloitte. Come on now. Also, I come from liberal arts college and these students had majors everywhere from Foreign Languages to IR to Philosophy...A majority of them had significant background in economics which must have helped, but was by no means necessary.

Anyway, my point was that it's all about the interviews and since I suspect a 3L has developed those (or could with some ease), even bigtime consulting aint that tough.


When you're saying "got consulting" what exactly do you mean? They became analysts for top firms like Bain, McKinsey, or Deloitte? I highly doubt that. It is very difficult to get and I would argue it is at least as difficult as getting into a top JD program. It requires a completely different skill set. High GPA and good LSAT score =/= good case interviewing, personality fit, and relevant experience/classes in undergrad.

OP, you don't want to be an analyst with an advanced degree. You will have to aim for an associate. However, to get an associate you would have to have work experience as an analyst or something comparable. So, IMO, forget about consulting.

Just to point out, a lot of the consulting firms call everyone associates, just some are senior and those out of undergrad aren't. If you are hired out of law school you do go to the associate/manager/whatever the title is at that place, same as the MBA's. Mckinsey is known for hiring a decent amount of JD's. Now, it's still extremely rare, but it does happen.

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Re: T14 2L with no job - ideas for post law school

Postby Sam Seaborn » Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:08 pm

Cade McNown wrote:
Patriot1208 wrote:[
Since when is Google consulting? I think the OP was talking about Strategy consulting, bro.


It isn't, I was introducing a new idea. Google is unconventional and so I really don't see a problem clumping it with companies like consulting firms just because both draw from the same applicant pool: smart people.


See, this is wrong too. Unlike for law school, getting a job often depends on your undergrad degree/fields of study.

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Re: T14 2L with no job - ideas for post law school

Postby Patriot1208 » Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:09 pm

Sam Seaborn wrote:It seemed to me that accounting was almost a pre-req for getting an interview for MBB and the like. This is just what someone who worked there told me, they weren't involved with hiring or anything like that but it seems like you gotta have some kind of quantitative background to get in.

Naw, that isn't true. I personally know someone from Dartmouth at Bain who was a medieval studies major. But the interviews do have some math in them, but it's not hard. It's more about where you go to school and your GPA. I was talking to a partner at Bain who told me the best interview he every did was a kid who was a political science major at michigan. It's certainly looked upon favorable to have a harder major. That will contribute to you beating out someone with a higher GPA for the interview. But once you get the interview it's all about how you do in that interview.

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Re: T14 2L with no job - ideas for post law school

Postby Alex-Trof » Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:12 pm

Patriot1208 wrote:Just to point out, a lot of the consulting firms call everyone associates, just some are senior and those out of undergrad aren't. If you are hired out of law school you do go to the associate/manager/whatever the title is at that place, same as the MBA's. Mckinsey is known for hiring a decent amount of JD's. Now, it's still extremely rare, but it does happen.


You're right. I was generalizing about analyst vs. associate. I think you mentioned a key statement here. If OP cant get a decent law firm job, I doubt McKinsey can be a backup, even if he somehow manages to get another degree.

In general, OP, I don't think you will be able to get into top MBA program because they care about quantity and quality of your work more than grades/GMAT. The fact that you went to law school for 3 years and haven't had (I am assuming here) 3-7 year-long career will throw them off.

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Re: T14 2L with no job - ideas for post law school

Postby Patriot1208 » Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:13 pm

Alex-Trof wrote:
Patriot1208 wrote:Just to point out, a lot of the consulting firms call everyone associates, just some are senior and those out of undergrad aren't. If you are hired out of law school you do go to the associate/manager/whatever the title is at that place, same as the MBA's. Mckinsey is known for hiring a decent amount of JD's. Now, it's still extremely rare, but it does happen.


You're right. I was generalizing about analyst vs. associate. I think you mentioned a key statement here. If OP cant get a decent law firm job, I doubt McKinsey can be a backup, even if he somehow manages to get another degree.

In general, OP, I don't think you will be able to get into top MBA program because they care about quantity and quality of your work more than grades/GMAT. The fact that you went to law school for 3 years and haven't had (I am assuming here) 3-7 year-long career will throw them off.

This is true. I can't comment to your legal options OP, because i'm an OL. But I do know that going to B school is a waste of your money and time.

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Re: T14 2L with no job - ideas for post law school

Postby Cade McNown » Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:16 pm

Patriot1208 wrote:
Sam Seaborn wrote:It seemed to me that accounting was almost a pre-req for getting an interview for MBB and the like. This is just what someone who worked there told me, they weren't involved with hiring or anything like that but it seems like you gotta have some kind of quantitative background to get in.

Naw, that isn't true. I personally know someone from Dartmouth at Bain who was a medieval studies major. But the interviews do have some math in them, but it's not hard. It's more about where you go to school and your GPA. I was talking to a partner at Bain who told me the best interview he every did was a kid who was a political science major at michigan. It's certainly looked upon favorable to have a harder major. That will contribute to you beating out someone with a higher GPA for the interview. But once you get the interview it's all about how you do in that interview.


Exactly. Sorry, that's all I've been getting at. Also, I think there is some overlap with LSAT and critical interviewing. Both measure how well you reason under pressure, and while maybe going to a good school helps you get an interview in the first place, once you've breached that the process is not knowledge based. I'm assuming OP would have the interview skills (and frankly some luck) to get at least one offer as an analyst.

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Re: T14 2L with no job - ideas for post law school

Postby Patriot1208 » Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:19 pm

Cade McNown wrote:
Patriot1208 wrote:
Sam Seaborn wrote:It seemed to me that accounting was almost a pre-req for getting an interview for MBB and the like. This is just what someone who worked there told me, they weren't involved with hiring or anything like that but it seems like you gotta have some kind of quantitative background to get in.

Naw, that isn't true. I personally know someone from Dartmouth at Bain who was a medieval studies major. But the interviews do have some math in them, but it's not hard. It's more about where you go to school and your GPA. I was talking to a partner at Bain who told me the best interview he every did was a kid who was a political science major at michigan. It's certainly looked upon favorable to have a harder major. That will contribute to you beating out someone with a higher GPA for the interview. But once you get the interview it's all about how you do in that interview.


Exactly. Sorry, that's all I've been getting at. Also, I think there is some overlap with LSAT and critical interviewing. Both measure how well you reason under pressure, and while maybe going to a good school helps you get an interview in the first place, once you've breached that the process is not knowledge based. I'm assuming OP would have the interview skills (and frankly some luck) to get at least one offer as an analyst.

Eh, probably doubtful. The JD is going to be a hinderance here to get an analyst/associate consulting position. When JD's are hired they are hired at the Associate/Manager level, same as the MBA's. And, unfortunately, the consulting firms tend to be just as grade conscious and prestige conscious as biglaw firms. I really doubt that the OP can just say "hey, just give me the analyst position, i'll do whatever for a job" when he has a useless BA and bad law school grades. It comes off as more desparate and they have no reason to take him. There are tons of 22 year olds lining up for the gluttony of 70 hr work weeks for 70k a year. And those kids have more upside.

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Re: T14 2L with no job - ideas for post law school

Postby Cade McNown » Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:21 pm

Sam Seaborn wrote:See, this is wrong too. Unlike for law school, getting a job often depends on your undergrad degree/fields of study.


IMO this is false, but I realize that I'm probably in the minority on this point.

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Re: T14 2L with no job - ideas for post law school

Postby showNprove » Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:27 pm

OP: You have a decent GPA at a T14 school. You will get a legal job eventually. With little debt and no biglaw-or-bust mentality, there's no reason for you to abandon ship yet. Keep hustling.

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Re: T14 2L with no job - ideas for post law school

Postby Cade McNown » Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:28 pm

Patriot1208 wrote:Eh, probably doubtful. The JD is going to be a hinderance here to get an analyst/associate consulting position. When JD's are hired they are hired at the Associate/Manager level, same as the MBA's. And, unfortunately, the consulting firms tend to be just as grade conscious and prestige conscious as biglaw firms. I really doubt that the OP can just say "hey, just give me the analyst position, i'll do whatever for a job" when he has a useless BA and bad law school grades. It comes off as more desparate and they have no reason to take him. There are tons of 22 year olds lining up for the gluttony of 70 hr work weeks for 70k a year. And those kids have more upside.


I know that MBAs and JDs are able to interview for entry level junior associateships whether or not they actually do so very often. Also, have we established that OP has a "useless BA". I pretty much agree with what you're saying though, and keep in mind I think OP is best off going into law and the best firm he can get.




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