Not making Partner

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JSC4
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Not making Partner

Postby JSC4 » Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:31 pm

Can anybody describe the whole situation with not becoming an equity partner?
I know that big law firms usually keep their associate for 4-7ish years, but after that if you dont make partner,
what are the chances that they will put you on counsel?
How about a non-equity partner?
Is there a low chance that you will not be with that firm even if you wanted to stay?
How difficult is it to get in-house jobs at larger companies?

I am asking this because I am on my way to becoming a lawyer and am aiming for HYS, but the partnership track is quite intimidating. Going from your dream job to nothing? Sounds very harsh

So please respond with anything you can.
Thanks

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ResolutePear
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Re: Not making Partner

Postby ResolutePear » Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:33 pm

JSC4 wrote:Can anybody describe the whole situation with not becoming an equity partner?
I know that big law firms usually keep their associate for 4-7ish years, but after that if you dont make partner,
what are the chances that they will put you on counsel?
How about a non-equity partner?
Is there a low chance that you will not be with that firm even if you wanted to stay?
How difficult is it to get in-house jobs at larger companies?

I am asking this because I am on my way to becoming a lawyer and am aiming for HYS, but the partnership track is quite intimidating. Going from your dream job to nothing? Sounds very harsh

So please respond with anything you can.
Thanks


This is all variable on a company-by-company basis.

JSC4
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Re: Not making Partner

Postby JSC4 » Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:34 pm

ResolutePear wrote:
JSC4 wrote:Can anybody describe the whole situation with not becoming an equity partner?
I know that big law firms usually keep their associate for 4-7ish years, but after that if you dont make partner,
what are the chances that they will put you on counsel?
How about a non-equity partner?
Is there a low chance that you will not be with that firm even if you wanted to stay?
How difficult is it to get in-house jobs at larger companies?

I am asking this because I am on my way to becoming a lawyer and am aiming for HYS, but the partnership track is quite intimidating. Going from your dream job to nothing? Sounds very harsh

So please respond with anything you can.
Thanks



This is all variable on a company-by-company basis.

Generally, would most firms kick you to the curb, or would they keep you as a senior associate/counsel?

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fatduck
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Re: Not making Partner

Postby fatduck » Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:39 pm

i'll give you one anecdotal data point:

a friend of mine went from CCN to a V10 firm and lateraled to a smaller lit boutique after 4-5 years there. it's been apparent for a couple years that he won't make partner at his new firm, and every six months or so they basically ask him when he's planning on leaving, and he says i dunno why don't you fire me? anyway, he still works there.

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kapachino
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Re: Not making Partner

Postby kapachino » Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:41 pm

fatduck wrote:i'll give you one anecdotal data point:

a friend of mine went from CCN to a V10 firm and lateraled to a smaller lit boutique after 4-5 years there. it's been apparent for a couple years that he won't make partner at his new firm, and every six months or so they basically ask him when he's planning on leaving, and he says i dunno why don't you fire me? anyway, he still works there.


That's really shitty.

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fatduck
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Re: Not making Partner

Postby fatduck » Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:46 pm

kapachino wrote:
fatduck wrote:i'll give you one anecdotal data point:

a friend of mine went from CCN to a V10 firm and lateraled to a smaller lit boutique after 4-5 years there. it's been apparent for a couple years that he won't make partner at his new firm, and every six months or so they basically ask him when he's planning on leaving, and he says i dunno why don't you fire me? anyway, he still works there.


That's really shitty.

well i have two other lawyer friends, one CCN grad (laid off from biglaw), one HYS grad (laid off from biglaw). at least it's a paycheck.

Aqualibrium
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Re: Not making Partner

Postby Aqualibrium » Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:52 pm

fatduck wrote:
kapachino wrote:
fatduck wrote:i'll give you one anecdotal data point:

a friend of mine went from CCN to a V10 firm and lateraled to a smaller lit boutique after 4-5 years there. it's been apparent for a couple years that he won't make partner at his new firm, and every six months or so they basically ask him when he's planning on leaving, and he says i dunno why don't you fire me? anyway, he still works there.


That's really shitty.

well i have two other lawyer friends, one CCN grad (laid off from biglaw), one HYS grad (laid off from biglaw). at least it's a paycheck.


Your original post made me lol. The second one made me a little sad inside.

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ResolutePear
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Re: Not making Partner

Postby ResolutePear » Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:56 pm

Aqualibrium wrote:
fatduck wrote:
kapachino wrote:
fatduck wrote:i'll give you one anecdotal data point:

a friend of mine went from CCN to a V10 firm and lateraled to a smaller lit boutique after 4-5 years there. it's been apparent for a couple years that he won't make partner at his new firm, and every six months or so they basically ask him when he's planning on leaving, and he says i dunno why don't you fire me? anyway, he still works there.


That's really shitty.

well i have two other lawyer friends, one CCN grad (laid off from biglaw), one HYS grad (laid off from biglaw). at least it's a paycheck.


Your original post made me lol. The second one made me a little sad inside.


HYS getting laid off is tough. Though, I question their work ethic. I don't want an answer though - as that would be rude. And it has the chance to make me wrong. Not good.

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fatduck
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Re: Not making Partner

Postby fatduck » Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:56 pm

ResolutePear wrote:HYS getting laid off is tough. Though, I question their work ethic. I don't want an answer though - as that would be rude. And it has the chance to make me wrong. Not good.

i'll give you a hint: this person's law firm is insolvent

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ResolutePear
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Re: Not making Partner

Postby ResolutePear » Sat Mar 19, 2011 11:00 pm

fatduck wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:HYS getting laid off is tough. Though, I question their work ethic. I don't want an answer though - as that would be rude. And it has the chance to make me wrong. Not good.

i'll give you a hint: this person's law firm is insolvent


Wow. Thanks for ruining me. Now I'm mentally insolvent to this topic.

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fatduck
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Re: Not making Partner

Postby fatduck » Sat Mar 19, 2011 11:01 pm

ResolutePear wrote:
fatduck wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:HYS getting laid off is tough. Though, I question their work ethic. I don't want an answer though - as that would be rude. And it has the chance to make me wrong. Not good.

i'll give you a hint: this person's law firm is insolvent

Wow. Thanks for ruining me. Now I'm mentally insolvent to this topic.

well they haven't laid off everyone. poor work ethic is still a possibility.

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Stanford4Me
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Re: Not making Partner

Postby Stanford4Me » Sat Mar 19, 2011 11:04 pm

I've been wondering the same thing. The little information I have found has shown that if you wait too long to try to transfer in-house, companies won't want you because they'll realize you weren't able to make partner at whatever firm you're coming from. There's a prime window (5 - 8 years depending on market, company size, firm, etc.) that corporations seeks to hire in-house counsel. I could be completely wrong though . . . I'm going to develop a relationship with a head hunter right after graduation, though.

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ResolutePear
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Re: Not making Partner

Postby ResolutePear » Sat Mar 19, 2011 11:04 pm

fatduck wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:
fatduck wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:HYS getting laid off is tough. Though, I question their work ethic. I don't want an answer though - as that would be rude. And it has the chance to make me wrong. Not good.

i'll give you a hint: this person's law firm is insolvent

Wow. Thanks for ruining me. Now I'm mentally insolvent to this topic.

well they haven't laid off everyone. poor work ethic is still a possibility.

There's no coming back from that for me.

JSC4
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Re: Not making Partner

Postby JSC4 » Sat Mar 19, 2011 11:18 pm

Is there a "senior associate" title for associates who are not promoted to partner yet wish to stay in most cases?
And do most associates leave big law after not making partner because they do not wish to remain in big law, or are they actually "told" to leave

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ResolutePear
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Re: Not making Partner

Postby ResolutePear » Sat Mar 19, 2011 11:26 pm

JSC4 wrote:Is there a "senior associate" title for associates who are not promoted to partner yet wish to stay in most cases?
And do most associates leave big law after not making partner because they do not wish to remain in big law, or are they actually "told" to leave


It. is. variable.

There is no industry standard.

Omerta
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Re: Not making Partner

Postby Omerta » Sat Mar 19, 2011 11:28 pm

On a related note, what happens to litigator who don't make the partner cut? For transactional, it's obvious; go in-house. But how many companies really need full time "case manager" in-house counsel? Do you go for federal stuff?

JSC4 wrote:Is there a "senior associate" title for associates who are not promoted to partner yet wish to stay in most cases?
And do most associates leave big law after not making partner because they do not wish to remain in big law, or are they actually "told" to leave


Senior associate is the name for an associate who has been at the firm for a couple of years. In larger firms there are enough associates that do both. I don't know how many fall into each category--maybe one of the young practicing attorneys could come in here and help out.

Also, as the person above me said, you're trying to generalize a very diverse field. What happens when professors don't get tenure, consultants don't reach manager level, or you hit the ceiling of the large company you work for? A lot of different shit can happen.

JSC4
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Re: Not making Partner

Postby JSC4 » Sun Mar 20, 2011 12:35 am

Yea i guess you guys are right about pinpointing a very variable corporate structure
Just wondering now, how are the salaries for in-house (on average of course) for larger companies?

HamDel
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Re: Not making Partner

Postby HamDel » Sun Mar 20, 2011 1:04 am

To be honest I think law becomes a harsh world very quickly if you aren't on partner track and haven't lateraled yourself into an in house position or something else. It's not like these firms owe you anything, so even if you go to HYSCCN you can still very easily find yourself out on your ass with very little warning. It always shocks me that people on TLS seem so oblivious to the fact that literally thousands of attorneys from T-14 schools are forced out of their firms each year. There seems to be some assumption that things work out great for these people in life after biglaw, but I think the reality is that many people are booted out without much warning and wind up with very boring, mediocre legal jobs despite their fancy degrees. If you aren't on the partner track, don't count on being made of counsel either. Concentrate on developing your skill set and proactively moving onto another opportunity the second it becomes clear that you don't have a great chance of becoming a partner.

Also, Resolute Pear seems like an idiot and I don't think he's worth listening to. Anyone who has spent significant time in the private sector knows that life in a firm or a company often isn't a merit game. You learn this after you have seen highly qualified people get laid off while less hard working folks keep their jobs/get promoted. Sometimes it's merit, but often it's luck and ass kissing that carry the day. I wouldn't go indicting thousands of grads from top schools for having "poor work ethic" when some of the most selective firms in the country categorically fired huge swaths of associates purely based on the business of their practice groups.

d34d9823
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Re: Not making Partner

Postby d34d9823 » Sun Mar 20, 2011 1:09 am

HamDel wrote:To be honest I think law becomes a harsh world very quickly if you aren't on partner track and haven't lateraled yourself into an in house position or something else. It's not like these firms owe you anything, so even if you go to HYSCCN you can still very easily find yourself out on your ass with very little warning. It always shocks me that people on TLS seem so oblivious to the fact that literally thousands of attorneys from T-14 schools are forced out of their firms each year. There seems to be some assumption that things work out great for these people in life after biglaw, but I think the reality is that many people are booted out without much warning and wind up with very boring, mediocre legal jobs despite their fancy degrees. If you aren't on the partner track, don't count on being made of counsel either. Concentrate on developing your skill set and proactively moving onto another opportunity the second it becomes clear that you don't have a great chance of becoming a partner.

Also, Resolute Pear seems like an idiot and I don't think he's worth listening to. Anyone who has spent significant time in the private sector knows that life in a firm or a company often isn't a merit game. You learn this after you have seen highly qualified people get laid off while less hard working folks keep their jobs/get promoted. Sometimes it's merit, but often it's luck and ass kissing that carry the day. I wouldn't go indicting thousands of grads from top schools for having "poor work ethic" when some of the most selective firms in the country categorically fired huge swaths of associates purely based on the business of their practice groups.

A definition of merit that doesn't include ass kissing is irrelevant.

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ResolutePear
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Re: Not making Partner

Postby ResolutePear » Sun Mar 20, 2011 1:20 am

HamDel wrote:To be honest I think law becomes a harsh world very quickly if you aren't on partner track and haven't lateraled yourself into an in house position or something else. It's not like these firms owe you anything, so even if you go to HYSCCN you can still very easily find yourself out on your ass with very little warning. It always shocks me that people on TLS seem so oblivious to the fact that literally thousands of attorneys from T-14 schools are forced out of their firms each year. There seems to be some assumption that things work out great for these people in life after biglaw, but I think the reality is that many people are booted out without much warning and wind up with very boring, mediocre legal jobs despite their fancy degrees. If you aren't on the partner track, don't count on being made of counsel either. Concentrate on developing your skill set and proactively moving onto another opportunity the second it becomes clear that you don't have a great chance of becoming a partner.

Also, Resolute Pear seems like an idiot and I don't think he's worth listening to. Anyone who has spent significant time in the private sector knows that life in a firm or a company often isn't a merit game. You learn this after you have seen highly qualified people get laid off while less hard working folks keep their jobs/get promoted. Sometimes it's merit, but often it's luck and ass kissing that carry the day. I wouldn't go indicting thousands of grads from top schools for having "poor work ethic" when some of the most selective firms in the country categorically fired huge swaths of associates purely based on the business of their practice groups.


Your failure to catch my sarcasm has proven your point. You will definitely be one of those "hard working" people who will be laid off.

Getting laid off isn't about "merit" or "ass kissing," in most cases that matter. Simply put: if you're making the company more money than what the company is paying for you, you are an asset and companies will not be quick to lay you off for no particular reason. In fact, you can be the biggest asshole and step all over people's throats, but if you're truly the golden goose, they're not going to fire you.

What you laid out, is actually what occurs in a fast food place. Keep flipping them burgers, boy.

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swc65
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Re: Not making Partner

Postby swc65 » Sun Mar 20, 2011 1:49 am

I was always told that if you don't make partner they take you outside, make you get on your knees, then shoot between the eyes. Am I wrong on this? I was so looking forward to either making bank or dying a disgraced, horrible death in the middle of Manhattan.

Seriously though, people take all sorts of career paths. Some go on to of counsel, others lateral their asses off until they find a nice home in some mid or small firm (I know this chick that has worked at five firms in 14 years). Others die young of a heart attack and open a new spot up for a marginal law grad that would have been unemployed otherwise.

Honestly, at this stage you need to just worry about getting a job (or getting into law school for some people ITT). In eight or so years worry about what will happen if you dont make partner.

Sup Kid
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Re: Not making Partner

Postby Sup Kid » Sun Mar 20, 2011 1:54 am

swc65 wrote:Honestly, at this stage you need to just worry about getting a job (or getting into law school for some people ITT). In eight or so years worry about what will happen if you dont make partner.

THIS.

HamDel
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Re: Not making Partner

Postby HamDel » Sun Mar 20, 2011 11:59 am

ResolutePear wrote:
HamDel wrote:To be honest I think law becomes a harsh world very quickly if you aren't on partner track and haven't lateraled yourself into an in house position or something else. It's not like these firms owe you anything, so even if you go to HYSCCN you can still very easily find yourself out on your ass with very little warning. It always shocks me that people on TLS seem so oblivious to the fact that literally thousands of attorneys from T-14 schools are forced out of their firms each year. There seems to be some assumption that things work out great for these people in life after biglaw, but I think the reality is that many people are booted out without much warning and wind up with very boring, mediocre legal jobs despite their fancy degrees. If you aren't on the partner track, don't count on being made of counsel either. Concentrate on developing your skill set and proactively moving onto another opportunity the second it becomes clear that you don't have a great chance of becoming a partner.

Also, Resolute Pear seems like an idiot and I don't think he's worth listening to. Anyone who has spent significant time in the private sector knows that life in a firm or a company often isn't a merit game. You learn this after you have seen highly qualified people get laid off while less hard working folks keep their jobs/get promoted. Sometimes it's merit, but often it's luck and ass kissing that carry the day. I wouldn't go indicting thousands of grads from top schools for having "poor work ethic" when some of the most selective firms in the country categorically fired huge swaths of associates purely based on the business of their practice groups.


Your failure to catch my sarcasm has proven your point. You will definitely be one of those "hard working" people who will be laid off.

Getting laid off isn't about "merit" or "ass kissing," in most cases that matter. Simply put: if you're making the company more money than what the company is paying for you, you are an asset and companies will not be quick to lay you off for no particular reason. In fact, you can be the biggest asshole and step all over people's throats, but if you're truly the golden goose, they're not going to fire you.

What you laid out, is actually what occurs in a fast food place. Keep flipping them burgers, boy.


Sorry for not catching your sarcasm, it's just so hard to tell when you are joking as you're so regularly a misinformed dickhead. Seems that this thread is no exception to that rule. Your perspective is overly simplistic - it's not that the laid off associates weren't making money for their firms, it's that the firms' clients were in a state of panic/collapse and could no longer pay for the quantity of legal services they were previously receiving. Associates billing an outrageous number of hours each year were laid off along with their slacker counterparts depending on who their clients were, simply because of macro circumstances.

Renzo
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Re: Not making Partner

Postby Renzo » Sun Mar 20, 2011 12:51 pm

kapachino wrote:
fatduck wrote:i'll give you one anecdotal data point:

a friend of mine went from CCN to a V10 firm and lateraled to a smaller lit boutique after 4-5 years there. it's been apparent for a couple years that he won't make partner at his new firm, and every six months or so they basically ask him when he's planning on leaving, and he says i dunno why don't you fire me? anyway, he still works there.


That's really shitty.


Not really. They are letting him know that he doesn't have a future there, so that he can find his own landing spot on his own terms. Would you rather they told him, "everything's fine, good work!" right up until they tell him he's not making partner and he needs to clean out his office?

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ResolutePear
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Re: Not making Partner

Postby ResolutePear » Sun Mar 20, 2011 1:43 pm

HamDel wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:
HamDel wrote:To be honest I think law becomes a harsh world very quickly if you aren't on partner track and haven't lateraled yourself into an in house position or something else. It's not like these firms owe you anything, so even if you go to HYSCCN you can still very easily find yourself out on your ass with very little warning. It always shocks me that people on TLS seem so oblivious to the fact that literally thousands of attorneys from T-14 schools are forced out of their firms each year. There seems to be some assumption that things work out great for these people in life after biglaw, but I think the reality is that many people are booted out without much warning and wind up with very boring, mediocre legal jobs despite their fancy degrees. If you aren't on the partner track, don't count on being made of counsel either. Concentrate on developing your skill set and proactively moving onto another opportunity the second it becomes clear that you don't have a great chance of becoming a partner.

Also, Resolute Pear seems like an idiot and I don't think he's worth listening to. Anyone who has spent significant time in the private sector knows that life in a firm or a company often isn't a merit game. You learn this after you have seen highly qualified people get laid off while less hard working folks keep their jobs/get promoted. Sometimes it's merit, but often it's luck and ass kissing that carry the day. I wouldn't go indicting thousands of grads from top schools for having "poor work ethic" when some of the most selective firms in the country categorically fired huge swaths of associates purely based on the business of their practice groups.


Your failure to catch my sarcasm has proven your point. You will definitely be one of those "hard working" people who will be laid off.

Getting laid off isn't about "merit" or "ass kissing," in most cases that matter. Simply put: if you're making the company more money than what the company is paying for you, you are an asset and companies will not be quick to lay you off for no particular reason. In fact, you can be the biggest asshole and step all over people's throats, but if you're truly the golden goose, they're not going to fire you.

What you laid out, is actually what occurs in a fast food place. Keep flipping them burgers, boy.


Sorry for not catching your sarcasm, it's just so hard to tell when you are joking as you're so regularly a misinformed dickhead. Seems that this thread is no exception to that rule. Your perspective is overly simplistic - it's not that the laid off associates weren't making money for their firms, it's that the firms' clients were in a state of panic/collapse and could no longer pay for the quantity of legal services they were previously receiving. Associates billing an outrageous number of hours each year were laid off along with their slacker counterparts depending on who their clients were, simply because of macro circumstances.


I'm not the one trying to explain an industry phenomena with a couple paragraphs of text just coherent enough to pass for garbage. You sir, are no Paul Krugman.




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